hey every1, if you haven't seen the film "Money as debt" here is a link
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279
the film is about what money really is nowadays and other important financial issues. In case you don't know how come almost all the countries in the world have astronomical debts, why they grow exponentially and whom are we all in debt you gotta watch this film for sure.
Geld als Schuld, mit deutschen Untertitel
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6433985877267580603&q=geld+als+schuld&total=35&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
Ãâ€ÃµÃ½Ã³Ã¸ ÿøÃ'â,¬Ã°Ã¼Ã¸Ã´Ã° ôþûóþò, Ã' Ã'â,¬Ã'Æ'Ã'ÂÃ'Âúøü ÿõÃ'â,¬ÃµÃ²Ã¾Ã´Ã¾Ã¼
http://rutube.ru/tracks/304021.html?v=0c4d3f680bf41dfbb284c4db2b991a1e
Whats with the socialistworld.net link on the top right corner of the video frame? Very creepy link.
good old money where ALL the BS started from. ::)
i had a chat with my flat mate the other day, it basicly went like , because i work part time from home and only earn about $300 a week doing about 5 hours a day, and he works 12 hours a day and is out on he road as a rep selling glue and gets about $600 a week, that it makes him a better person becasue he is paying ore tax and supporting our economy lmao, i left it at that, ( funny tho how he is a better person ?, i always thought we are all equal except some of us are a little more stuck up than others is all.). :-X
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on April 11, 2008, 10:27:46 PM
Whats with the socialistworld.net link on the top right corner of the video frame? Very creepy link.
hmm, I've just noticed that link, the site looks like an activist site, not my cup of tea, most likely it's maintained by people that don't know what really goes on or by some bankers that want people looking the wother way. I did a search on that site, words Overunity, Tesla, Radiant Energy ...., no results. Never mind that site just watch the film
Quote from: b0rg13 on April 11, 2008, 10:42:19 PM
.....and he works 12 hours a day and is out on he road as a rep selling glue and gets about $600 a week, that it makes him a better person becasue he is paying ore tax and supporting our economy
Ask him if he knows where almost all of the tax money goes. I bet he does not know that it goes to pay the interest on the borrowed fiat money from the Central Bank / World bank.
PRO thanks for the movie Can't say it cheered me up but I am more informed Thanks Chet
Quote from: ramset on April 11, 2008, 11:14:40 PM
PRO thanks for the movie Can't say it cheered me up but I am more informed Thanks Chet
Don't count on it! There's a lot of lying and deception mixed in with the truth in that video.
The truth is that money
is debt, but there's not really anything wrong with that.
When you take out a loan at the bank, you are indeed just exchanging IOUs. The bank agrees to pay out X dollars on demand, and you agree to pay the back X+interest over time. The interest makes up for your risk of defaulting and the reduced value of your future payments due to inflation. It's perfectly reasonable.
The only reason you can say that money has been created here is because the bank's IOU is counted as money. It's counted as money, because you can use it to pay for stuff. You can use it to pay for stuff, because everyone else knows that the bank will make good on its IOU.
We can all be confident of that, because the federal bank will lend the bank dollars whenever the bank wants, as long as the bank follows the rules that are set forth to ensure that its debt position isn't too risky. This is all good too, except that a lot of US banks have not been following all the rules lately.
The federal bank is
always able to lend banks what they need (and charge them interest, too!), because an IOU from the federal bank is the base form of money. If the fed owes you a dollar, then you already have it. There is no more basic thing that you are owed -- cash is just a printed IOU from the federal bank, payable to the bearer. Since there is nothing but prudence to stop the Fed from writing IOUs, there's no fixed limit on how much it can lend to banks. It all works fine.
There is also no debt monster that grows exponentially because there's not enough money in circulation to pay back interest. If all money is borrowed at interest, the film asks, then how could we possibly get enough money to pay back both principal and interest? The answer is simple: The profit that the bank makes in interest is distributed to the folks who own the bank or run the bank, and they
spend it to buy things of value we create. It's no different from anyone else's profit.
Quote from: Mr.Entropy on April 12, 2008, 01:16:10 AM
Quote from: ramset on April 11, 2008, 11:14:40 PM
PRO thanks for the movie Can't say it cheered me up but I am more informed Thanks Chet
Don't count on it! There's a lot of lying and deception mixed in with the truth in that video.
The truth is that money is debt, but there's not really anything wrong with that.
When you take out a loan at the bank, you are indeed just exchanging IOUs. The bank agrees to pay out X dollars on demand, and you agree to pay the back X+interest over time. The interest makes up for your risk of defaulting and the reduced value of your future payments due to inflation. It's perfectly reasonable.
The only reason you can say that money has been created here is because the bank's IOU is counted as money. It's counted as money, because you can use it to pay for stuff. You can use it to pay for stuff, because everyone else knows that the bank will make good on its IOU.
We can all be confident of that, because the federal bank will lend the bank dollars whenever the bank wants, as long as the bank follows the rules that are set forth to ensure that its debt position isn't too risky. This is all good too, except that a lot of US banks have not been following all the rules lately.
The federal bank is always able to lend banks what they need (and charge them interest, too!), because an IOU from the federal bank is the base form of money. If the fed owes you a dollar, then you already have it. There is no more basic thing that you are owed -- cash is just a printed IOU from the federal bank, payable to the bearer. Since there is nothing but prudence to stop the Fed from writing IOUs, there's no fixed limit on how much it can lend to banks. It all works fine.
There is also no debt monster that grows exponentially because there's not enough money in circulation to pay back interest. If all money is borrowed at interest, the film asks, then how could we possibly get enough money to pay back both principal and interest? The answer is simple: The profit that the bank makes in interest is distributed to the folks who own the bank or run the bank, and they spend it to buy things of value we create. It's no different from anyone else's profit.
The private "federal" bank. A better way to put it.
The problem with the system is it's unstable. When people are poor, it's too late. Gold provides stability because NO ONE can create gold. Thus no one has facist power over the currency.
EDIT:
Without the federal reserve, the government wouldn't be creating all this debt for a "war". When you ask someone for something, they give it to you, and you give them something back to satisfy the other person. The physical object is transmitted to the other person. What the government does is take that something, pay the interest with something (income *cough* tax). This is basical saying, "I'm going to take some IOU money, buy some tanks, and use the money from the people to pay off the debt". Welcome to taxation without representation. And this isn't small amounts of money. This is huge amounts, having chaotic affects. Barrow and pay back + interest only works good on small scales. Not 50million dollars for 3 f-22's...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ - 1/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBZne09Gf5A - 2/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjUrib_Gh0Y - 3/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BVNN1wqw3k - 4/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPPFgHF9VR4 - 5/5
Also somes in German language:
Nice movie
G.Pese
wie funktioniert das Geld ?</h2><h3>
3 mal 5 Minuten Kurs, um an fremdes Geld zu kommen.
</h3>
DEUTSCH Eindrucksvoll und leicht verst?ndlich
<a href ="http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=-857148826465320604&q=geld&total=3949&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 "> HIER </A> Kurs 1
<a href ="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK2yZlHk4cA"> HIER </A> Kurs 2
<a href ="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VOtdQrCoyk&mode=related&search= "> HIER </A> Kurs 3
und dann??? (sehr ernsthaft und seri?s!)
Es gibt immer noch kein Geld ! Es gibt NUR SCHULDEN !!
Banken verleihen IHRE SCHULDEN und wollen GELD "DAMIT" verdienen.
Das Papier-GELD ist das Papier nicht WERT und muss von ZEIT ZU ZEIT voll entwertet werden !!
So funktioniert das noch immer !
ENGLISCH language , German SUB-titled Video
BANKEN haben KEIN GELD , verleihen nur wertlose SCHULDVERSCHREIBUNGEN (http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=6433985877267580603) Ein Blick hinter das SYSTEM hier !
Money as Debt -- Geld als Schuld , englisch gesprochen (mit deutschem Untertitel) 45 Minuten Video
The film might not be totally correct but one thing is for sure, usury has no justification, and comments like "but how are banks gonna make their living" are absurd, they are not interested in making a living they are interested in making a maximum profit and ultimately keeping control in their hands, money is just the means, the goal is control, total control.
The Federal Reserve and other federal banks are as federal as Federal Express.
Let's also not forget that the resources required to keep this insane "growth", GDP and so on, they are finite.
Read a bit about this here http://www.cfoss.com/grip.html
I don't want to get into "sci-fi" stuff but this whole scenario looks kinda like the matrix. Humans "loose" so much energy in trying to keep up with this monstrous system, this insane tempo thinking, oh well that's the harsh reality and we can't do anything about it, but in reality this mechanism is set up to suck our life energy. I wish I had a device that would let me see how energy is being sucked out of us, a vampiroscope maybe.
There is much more to talk about but then I'll have to write about genetics, religion, nationality and other non-financial stuff.
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on April 12, 2008, 02:51:06 AM
What the government does is take that something, pay the interest with something (income *cough* tax). This is basical saying, "I'm going to take some IOU money, buy some tanks, and use the money from the people to pay off the debt". Welcome to taxation without representation.
Aren't you forgetting that the government is us? If you think it isn't, then that's a good reason to start a revolution, but it's got nothing to do with the monetary system.
Quote from: prometei on April 12, 2008, 05:37:42 AM
The film might not be totally correct but one thing is for sure, usury has no justification, and comments like "but how are banks gonna make their living" are absurd, they are not interested in making a living they are interested in making a maximum profit and ultimately keeping control in their hands, money is just the means, the goal is control, total control.
Private banks don't want to control you (well, maybe the world bank and the IMF do, but that's different).Ã, Private banks just want to make money like everyone else, and just like everyone else, it's competition that keeps their profits in check.
QuoteLet's also not forget that the resources required to keep this insane "growth", GDP and so on, they are finite.
You're correct that choosing GDP growth as the goal of our society is a really bad idea.
QuoteRead a bit about this here http://www.cfoss.com/grip.html
I read enough of that to figure out that it was full of lies.Ã, Not all countries have balooning debt, and the only reason many do is because they can't figure out that you have to tax enough to cover your spending.Ã, It's not a problem that's built into the system.
QuoteHumans "loose" so much energy in trying to keep up with this monstrous system, this insane tempo thinking, oh well that's the harsh reality and we can't do anything about it, but in reality this mechanism is set up to suck our life energy. I wish I had a device that would let me see how energy is being sucked out of us, a vampiroscope maybe.
You're right about that, but it's not the system.Ã, It's just the culture around here, and there are a lot of places where it's not like that.Ã, There are also a lot of people in North America who choose to live simpler lives, and they really don't have too hard a time doing it.
About 25 years ago I was sitting in the office of the VP of a Banker's Bank. These are banks that loan money to banks. In Quebec, at the time there was a strong separatist movement that had slowly died down to today. The banker asked me if I was for separation of Quebec from Canada. I said yes, even as an anglophone (now franglophone) living in Quebec. He asked me why. I told him it's simple. To get away from the Bank of Canada. She looked at me very surprised with my answer and asked "how do you know this"? "How can a simple citizen know the breath of that statement to be soooooo true".
Well I explained that as soon as one realizes that the Bank of Canada is really Bank of Canada Incorporated, and that the Federal Reserve is really Federal Reserve Incorporated, it goes to reason that this is a corporation like my own. Nice name, but in their case it's a nice front so all the other banks can simply stand behind this seemingly public entity, that is really a private entity, from where they can pull the strings of our economy and push us more and more into DEBT from nothing.
The quick answer to this debt is very simple.
Let's say Bob owes Peter 10$, John $5, Wilbur 15$.
Let's say Peter owes Bob 4$, John 7$, Wilbur 12$.
Let's say John owes Bob 8$, Peter 12$, Wilbur 3$
Let's say Wilbur owes Bob 11$, Peter 2$, John 2$
The total debt held by all parties together is $91, so interest is being paid on the total 91$.
So what if these four sat at a table and did son creative debt repayment.
Since Bob owes Peter 10$ but Peter owes Bob 4$, then Bob owes Peter only 6$. If you extend this throughout the four, taking from one side, giving to the other, you will have a final total "real" debt of only 26$ as far as I could acertain from my spreadsheet.
Now you know why banks are not "interested" in doing this simple sit down. They would never suggest this too their governments because they prefer to collect interest on 91$ instead of 26$. lol
Quote from: wattsup on April 12, 2008, 12:55:34 PM
The quick answer to this debt is very simple.
Let's say Bob owes Peter 10$, John $5, Wilbur 15$.
Let's say Peter owes Bob 4$, John 7$, Wilbur 12$.
Let's say John owes Bob 8$, Peter 12$, Wilbur 3$
Let's say Wilbur owes Bob 11$, Peter 2$, John 2$
The total debt held by all parties together is $91, so interest is being paid on the total 91$.
So what if these four sat at a table and did son creative debt repayment.
Since Bob owes Peter 10$ but Peter owes Bob 4$, then Bob owes Peter only 6$. If you extend this throughout the four, taking from one side, giving to the other, you will have a final total "real" debt of only 26$ as far as I could acertain from my spreadsheet.
Now you know why banks are not "interested" in doing this simple sit down. They would never suggest this too their governments because they prefer to collect interest on 91$ instead of 26$. lol
That is an interesting illustration, but isn't the end result that a bunch of these people will just end up exchanging interest payments, and the only payments that are not reciprocated are on $26? So it really does not matter if the debts are cancelled out when they are owed to each other, except to reduce paperwork and transaction costs.
Quote from: Mr.Entropy on April 12, 2008, 10:33:10 AM
Quote from: prometei on April 12, 2008, 05:37:42 AM
The film might not be totally correct but one thing is for sure, usury has no justification, and comments like "but how are banks gonna make their living" are absurd, they are not interested in making a living they are interested in making a maximum profit and ultimately keeping control in their hands, money is just the means, the goal is control, total control.
Private banks don't want to control you (well, maybe the world bank and the IMF do, but that's different). Private banks just want to make money like everyone else, and just like everyone else, it's competition that keeps their profits in check.
I forgot to mention, banks are also means.
?1. Is there any sober economist that's reading this thread? i was wondering what kind of changes will happen in the world if the national debts (to private banks) will be canceled, the issue of and regulating/controlling the money supply will go back to the government ( with real human beings), anything having to do usury will be left behind......?
?2. Are there a lot of countries in the world where a newborn is automatically entitled to land, land that he/she will be able to grow food on?
Quote from: Mr.Entropy on April 12, 2008, 10:24:19 AM
Quote from: HopeForHumanity on April 12, 2008, 02:51:06 AM
What the government does is take that something, pay the interest with something (income *cough* tax). This is basical saying, "I'm going to take some IOU money, buy some tanks, and use the money from the people to pay off the debt". Welcome to taxation without representation.
Aren't you forgetting that the government is us? If you think it isn't, then that's a good reason to start a revolution, but it's got nothing to do with the monetary system.
That was a very brave statement in this modern world. The monetary system has everything to do with it. What makes you think it doesn't? Your reply was very disconnected with the point I was trying to make. Your emphasis on the government is us only applies in a world of history. You stated in your recent posts that a private bank did in fact control part of the currency, so stop contradicting your self.
Yeah, central banks are evil.
Buy silver and gold, that is their mortal enemy. ;)
http://apmex.com (http://apmex.com)