I originally posted the following as a reply to member Nightlife in his thread under "News"
Quote from Nightlife: "I shouldn't post this but what the heck."
My sentiments exactly, at this point. I believe too many people have been concentrating too much on designing a CAPTURE device for the forces of magnetism, instead of concentrating on the forces themselves. In almost every case, the opposite polarity somehow cancels out the force of the other. Also, in almost every case, a rotor and stationary stators are used. Why?
In the case of other "forces" we have successfully captured, i.e., water power, wind power, and steam power, we have utilized a blade, or turbine system, to capture the energy. Why not magnetism? Since joining this forum a year ago, I have recalled a demonstration that my seventh grade science teacher showed us. She had constructed a pinwheel shaped "fan" of flat magnets, and introduced a fairly large rod magnet in front of the pinwheel, The magnet pinwheel spun like crazy. However, before she could explain the design and science behind it, a teacher ran in from next door, and screamed at my teacher to turn on our small b & w TV to CBS, and Walter Cronkite. The time was a little after !:00 PM, on November 22nd, 1963. I never saw that device again, but I DID see it, for a short time.
IMHO, I don't see why this would not work. Only one polarity would be "active", from both the pinwheel and the cylindrical manger, and if both were the same, the repulsion would seem to be uniform across the surfaces of the "fan magnets", and if properly angled, would cause the rotor to turn.
I have tried to model this in WM2D, but the closest I could get was to produce the fans from curved polygons angles to produce an offset center of mass, and to introduce an electrostatic force from above. I have attached the model for anyone to modify and experiment with. SOMETHING is definitely causing this model to spin at increasing velocities!
Nightlife, the reason I barged in on your discussion was because you wanted to utilize both polarities instead of just one. Well, if a pinwheel motor was possible, it would use only one polarity as viewed head on, however, there is still the "other side". And besides, you encouraged me to take the chance and post. I'm not getting any younger or healthier! Thank you!
Dact
Maybe I just haven't looked hard enough, but I don't recall ever seeing a discussion here on the "fan" arrangement that I am investigating here. Maybe it's because it's just too simple to even conceive, or maybe it's just common knowledge to everyone but me that this wouldn't work, which is very possible. However, I decided to throw this out here anyway. I DID see something similar in operation when I was a seventh grader in 1963. It DID spin rapidly and that's that!
I have not produced a prototype as of yet, but am ordering the materials tomorrow. I have attached a WM2D sim with which I tried to simulate this idea. Hope it helps. Will also attach some sequential JPEGS from the sim on a later post, if anyone is interested.
I don't know for sure, but it just seems logical that this might just work!
Dact
awaiting jpegs
wiz
Hi sorry not my computer so i cant download the file can you please describe it in a bit more detail? are you sure she was puting any energy into it by wobbling it etc? how very interesting if it was real, i wonder if any other users from your generation also witnessed something simler.
I'm intrested as well, I send this message to start email notifications. /Eric
It's the same principle Arthur Cote used for his "magnetic wind mill motor". You can download the PDF file from this torrent:
http://www.torrentportal.com/details/3127965/How+To+Manufacture+A+Free+Energy+Device+(Perpetual+Motion).pdf.torrent
I cannot attach it here as it's as big as 1.8 Mb
Quote from: edelind on May 16, 2008, 09:26:34 AM
It's the same principle Arthur Cote used for his "magnetic wind mill motor". You can download the PDF file from this torrent:
http://www.torrentportal.com/details/3127965/How+To+Manufacture+A+Free+Energy+Device+(Perpetual+Motion).pdf.torrent
I cannot attach it here as it's as big as 1.8 Mb
Hi,
Here in the thread you can upload smaller than 50kB files but at this link you can upload up to 5MB: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=upload with files type like: zip, rar, doc, jpg, gif, png, avi, mov, mpg, mpeg, qt, swf,
pdf, odt, rm, ra
would you mind uploading?
thanks, Gyula
Quote from: gyulasun on May 16, 2008, 10:29:12 AM
would you mind uploading?
Gyula, I put it here: http://fdp.nu/shared/manager.asp?d=files (http://fdp.nu/shared/manager.asp?d=files) for you to download.
But I don't think it has anything to do with the fan. The PDF is one of those 'never working closed loops'.
Eric
Thank you Eric, I have downloaded. Well, the V form setup was shown to give acceleration in a linear track but I have not seen anyone showing a working V track in a full circle as this description shows. Perhaps making this also linearly and then bend the linear track gradually to right or left at a big radius to complete a full circle?
rgds, Gyula
Quote from: wizkycho on May 16, 2008, 04:05:57 AM
awaiting jpegs
wiz
[/quote
Uploaded jpg files at this link.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=cat2;tpstart=30
Quote from: seekingknowledge on May 16, 2008, 08:00:55 AM
Hi sorry not my computer so i cant download the file can you please describe it in a bit more detail? are you sure she was puting any energy into it by wobbling it etc? how very interesting if it was real, i wonder if any other users from your generation also witnessed something simler.
Thanks for the interest. No, the pinwheel setup was stationary. She was holding the cylindrical magnet and moving it toward and away from the wheel, causing a distinct increase and decrease in speed. Sorry, this was 45 years ago, but she did not have any reason to fake this. Hell, we had plenty of cheap oil then, just an interesting experiment to her to teach magnetism to a bunch of kids!
Posted JPG files at this link:
Uploaded jpg files at this link.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=cat2;tpstart=30
Quote from: gyulasun on May 16, 2008, 07:29:34 PM
Thank you Eric, I have downloaded.
rgds, Gyula
Which file are you referring to?
Regards,
Dact
Quote from: Dact on May 16, 2008, 11:48:32 PM
Which file are you referring to?
Regards,
Dact
It's the PDf: How to manufacture............
But I don't think it is the same a the fan motor. Does not look like it.
It's more t?he V-gate, that didn't work in a closed loop setup.
Eric.
What makes this model to spin is the custom force field that is aplied and the error on metrics.
Let put the force field to OFF ant then lets increase the accuracy of the model... It stops, there is a stick point and no umbalance...
I'm goint to investigate some more with this curves approaches.
xnonix
Hmmmmm,
ok I have investigated a bit, let's see what I found.
* I made my model without setting any force field and putting out the gravity.
* I set electrostatics on to simulate magnets.
* I put a magnet near the fan. Depending on the position of this magnet the system works or not.
* All is made with standard materials in the program.
* Error metrics are minimized in this model to make it more accuracy than standard accuracy in the program. There seems to be no gliches like subit forces made by error metrics.*
* The system accelerates by itself reaching a terminal velocity depending on air resistance (what is set to 0.3). The system works with higher values.
What do you think? A bit strange, no?
Mandatory picture and model
Quote from: xnonix on May 20, 2008, 03:42:48 AM
What makes this model to spin is the custom force field that is aplied and the error on metrics.
Let put the force field to OFF ant then lets increase the accuracy of the model... It stops, there is a stick point and no umbalance...
I'm goint to investigate some more with this curves approaches.
xnonix
Thank you, Xnonix, I was hping you would respond. The values I gave to the external force field were not based on any real knowledge of the accurate values proportional to what may be realistic, only on equal polarities. My theory was only based on an observation from deep in the past, coupled with a certain belief that only a manipulation of the components could produce a positive result. I thank you for your interest and input!
Dact
Quote from: Dact on May 15, 2008, 10:48:09 PM
She had constructed a pinwheel shaped "fan" of flat magnets, and introduced a fairly large rod magnet in front of the pinwheel, The magnet pinwheel spun like crazy.
I totally believe this story, but alone, it is not very promising. Not trying to put a damper on things, but it is very easy to get magnets to move while holding something in front of them with your hands. The motion of your body, even though minor, is what creates motion in the magnets. As soon as you fasten down the rod or whatever it is that was introduced, motion stops.
Quote from: xnonix on May 20, 2008, 06:16:47 AM
Hmmmmm,
ok I have investigated a bit, let's see what I found.
* I made my model without setting any force field and putting out the gravity.
* I set electrostatics on to simulate magnets.
* I put a magnet near the fan. Depending on the position of this magnet the system works or not.
* All is made with standard materials in the program.
* Error metrics are minimized in this model to make it more accuracy than standard accuracy in the program. There seems to be no gliches like subit forces made by error metrics.*
* The system accelerates by itself reaching a terminal velocity depending on air resistance (what is set to 0.3). The system works with higher values.
What do you think? A bit strange, no?
Mandatory picture and model
xnonix,
Very intriguing. I agree, a bit strange! But not impossible. Your .WM2D file, even though you turned off the external forces, produced almost the same force vectors as my original model. Maybe it's because it's a 2d program, I don't know. A really good 3d program is really needed to explore this phenomena further.
BTW, I thank you for the credits in the program, but the model is mine. Taking nothing away from nightlife, as it was he who persuaded me to post in the first place. He has an equally intriguing idea, but I needed to set the record straight. The WM2D file was mine, and as such, am
responsible, whether it be criticism or not.
If you would, I implore all readers of this subject to bear with me for just a bit to hear me out on some observations I have made over the years. I am not a graduate of any university or college. I did attend college for a year before leaving for the U.S. Air Force after one year during the Vietnam War, but I have had no further formal training in physics since then. I have, however, worked in the security and and alarm industry for almost 30 years now. For many years, I installed and serviced commercial and residential burglar alarm systems, which of course meant utilizing small window and door magnets for the sensors. Too get straight to the point, many of these magnets over the years would become weak, and have to be replaced, after causing false alarms because of their decreased effect on the opposing reed switch. How did I know they needed replaced? Because they became lighter in weight! Now, I know many are now getting ready to change forums, but please hear me out.
Most of the magnets I noticed that seemed to be lighter had been in place for over 20 years. Has anyone out there weighed a brand new magnet, set it aside for 20 years, and then reweigh it? I didn't, but I contend that there was a difference in weight between the old one and a new replacement, which was noticeable, just in juggling each in both hands. Why is this important? I think that is obvious. If true, it means that mass has disappeared, and turned into what? According to Einstein, it could only be energy. Not a classical force, but energy.
Just wanted to throw this out for those whose training is much greater than mine, and whom may possess the modern instrumentation to prove or disprove it.
Please allow me to make one final observation. i just want to stress that the model I prosed was based on a real, though dated, observation. However, the dynamics are the same. Think about it! A single cylindrical magnet, approaching at 90 degrees to a "fan" of equal, fan arrayed flat magnets. The forces upon all flat magnets should theoretically be the same, causing a repulsion equally against all magnets in the "fan", just as the wind against a windmill. The opposite poles would seem to be very insignificant as far as "cancellation" goes. After years of working with magnets, feeling all the forces against a variety of materials, I just feel it! Not very scientific, maybe, but POSSIBLE!
Thank you,
Dact
Quote from: utilitarian on May 20, 2008, 11:42:16 PM
I totally believe this story, but alone, it is not very promising. Not trying to put a damper on things, but it is very easy to get magnets to move while holding something in front of them with your hands. The motion of your body, even though minor, is what creates motion in the magnets. As soon as you fasten down the rod or whatever it is that was introduced, motion stops.
Thanks for the response!. I totally agree with you on your premise of moving a magnet in to the proximity of a like-poled magnet. As long as you keep moving the held magnet, the other will continue to move. No quarrels here. BUT, if you have a "fan" array, with the fan at, say 45 degrees to the "held" magnet, then you have now transferred the energy from "0" degrees, relevant to the 'held" magnet, to a position of 90 degrees in a circular, or rotary, array which will now no longer require the "held" magnet to move any further to achieve the continuous force necessary to keep the array spinning. Instead of your hand having to keep moving, the perpendicular, spinning "array" will now disperse the excess energy.
Simply put, If you place two, like poles next to each other, the potential energy is there almost forever, until either one is finally released.
This is the best I can do to try to explain this theory. I have not yet built a model, due to a severe herniated disc I'm dealing with, but I hope to soon. I please invite anyone else to do so with my encouragement.
Good luck,
Dact
Sorry Dact, I missread your first post and i didn't get it right. English is not my first language. Sorry. ::)
The model and original idea was from Dact, and I will change it in the next mods of the idea I will release.
xnonix
Quote
Please allow me to make one final observation. i just want to stress that the model I prosed was based on a real, though dated, observation. However, the dynamics are the same. Think about it! A single cylindrical magnet, approaching at 90 degrees to a "fan" of equal, fan arrayed flat magnets. The forces upon all flat magnets should theoretically be the same, causing a repulsion equally against all magnets in the "fan", just as the wind against a windmill. The opposite poles would seem to be very insignificant as far as "cancellation" goes. After years of working with magnets, feeling all the forces against a variety of materials, I just feel it! Not very scientific, maybe, but POSSIBLE!
Thank you,
Dact
Hey Dact,
wind fan works on different principe.It is a force of air molecules hitting the fan blade and bouncing off ,that produce the reaction force on a fan blade(direction opposite to bounced off air molecule).With approaching front of a fan with a magnet,u will only get is spinning if u have any fraction of force in the parallel plane of fan(perpendiculair to its axis).It is more like a normal fan,that u want to get spinning by placing it with its face to the ground,hoping that gravity will pull the blades(and it does) and make the fan to spin(but it won't).
There is simply no force in the direction of spinning(perpendiculair to the fan shaft)...
is this what u r proposing?
If u want to set the main magnet under the slight angle u will have fan blades that are in stronger field(oposing to the movement because they have to overcome field strength to come closer to the main magnet) and the one who are in weaker field(making the movement ).
Nice idea would be to use some magnetic particles to accelerate in magnet field (magnet behid the fan) and hitting the blades on the way to the magnet.it would work like a wind fan.Now if we could get them out of the field and place back in front of a fan,it could work for ever.But we still have no magnet shielding :|
Quote from: Creativity on May 21, 2008, 06:00:22 AM
Hey Dact,
wind fan works on different principe.It is a force of air molecules hitting the fan blade and bouncing off ,that produce the reaction force on a fan blade(direction opposite to bounced off air molecule).With approaching front of a fan with a magnet,u will only get is spinning if u have any fraction of force in the parallel plane of fan(perpendiculair to its axis).It is more like a normal fan,that u want to get spinning by placing it with its face to the ground,hoping that gravity will pull the blades(and it does) and make the fan to spin(but it won't).
There is simply no force in the direction of spinning(perpendiculair to the fan shaft)...
is this what u r proposing?
If u want to set the main magnet under the slight angle u will have fan blades that are in stronger field(oposing to the movement because they have to overcome field strength to come closer to the main magnet) and the one who are in weaker field(making the movement ).
Nice idea would be to use some magnetic particles to accelerate in magnet field (magnet behid the fan) and hitting the blades on the way to the magnet.it would work like a wind fan.Now if we could get them out of the field and place back in front of a fan,it could work for ever.But we still have no magnet shielding :|
Creativity,
Actually, I only used a 45 degree angle in my explanation as an example to help visualize the principle, but in actuality I guess I just muddied the waters even further! ;)
I originally envisioned that the blades would have only be tuned to just enough of an angle off of true perpendicular as to allow the repelling force of the stationary magnet to begin "pushing" the blades at a constant pressure, thereby steadily increasing the velocity. This is what I attempted to simulate in my WM2D model. The shallow angle would also seem to greatly reduce the interfering "attracting" polarity from the reverse side of the blades.
However, your idea intrigues me greatly. What if, depending on the shape of the fan, you placed a similar "fixed" magnet behind the fan, but with the opposite polarity. This would in effect create a mirrored device, yet using only 1 fan. The opposite fixed magnets would be in attraction to each other, but in repulsion to their respective surfaces of the blades. Would this be in effect what you were thinking? It seems plausible, but more suggestions and input will be needed here. Hope anyone reading this has an opinion.
Thanks,
Dact
Quote from: xnonix on May 21, 2008, 02:21:54 AM
Sorry Dact, I missread your first post and i didn't get it right. English is not my first language. Sorry. ::)
The model and original idea was from Dact, and I will change it in the next mods of the idea I will release.
xnonix
NP xnonix. I am anxious to see what your next mod holds!
Dact
today i got some idea :) still need to research in though.i imagined a magnetic fluid/emulsion used to propell the small turbine.Fluid would use the magnetic field of a magnet to move itself.What if there was a simple ,reversible chemical reaction allowing for example to bind ferromagnetic into diamagnetic molecule...we could use this reaction to remove otherwise magnetic fluid from the magnetic field.then reverse the reaction to make it back a magnetic substance and fropell the turbine. :)
Quote from: Creativity on May 25, 2008, 11:54:08 AM
today i got some idea :) still need to research in though.i imagined a magnetic fluid/emulsion used to propell the small turbine.Fluid would use the magnetic field of a magnet to move itself.What if there was a simple ,reversible chemical reaction allowing for example to bind ferromagnetic into diamagnetic molecule...we could use this reaction to remove otherwise magnetic fluid from the magnetic field.then reverse the reaction to make it back a magnetic substance and fropell the turbine. :)
I think I understand. This would be similar to a closed loop steam engine, but instead of condensing the steam back to water to reuse, it would chemically revert the fluid back to be reused. Is this correct?
yes exactly :) now i just dont know if (for example) iron can be made non ferromagnetic when surrounded by some other molecules(kind of a shield on atomic level).
Like blood,has some iron in its but is it still ferromagnetic?
i found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrite
as an easy and fast example,it is diamagnetic and reacts less to the magnetic field than iron.
Dact,
the fan model working in WM2D is probably a bug in the program with bezier curves used in blades. I have tried other forms made by rectangles and doesn't work (remember to setup high accuracy). As we know rectangles works fine with electromagnetics in wm2d, so we have to make our model with rectangles (1 or more per blade).
The only way you have to test the curves blades approach works is by constructing the model for real.
If works then you are rich and you will have all the honors. Hope you share something with me. ::).
If doesn't work, we will be here tomorrow to try again.
xnonix
Edit: When you make your real model , first look at this for you stator (you will have more success options). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo6CENdvG4c
Quote from: xnonix on May 26, 2008, 08:13:32 AM
Dact,
the fan model working in WM2D is probably a bug in the program with bezier curves used in blades. I have tried other forms made by rectangles and doesn't work (remember to setup high accuracy). As we know rectangles works fine with electromagnetics in wm2d, so we have to make our model with rectangles (1 or more per blade).
The only way you have to test the curves blades approach works is by constructing the model for real.
If works then you are rich and you will have all the honors. Hope you share something with me. ::).
If doesn't work, we will be here tomorrow to try again.
xnonix
Edit: When you make your real model , first look at this for you stator (you will have more success options). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo6CENdvG4c
Thanks for spending the time to investigate this theory. I thought the same about a bug, but I believe there is something more to it than that. Rectangles work in WM2D only because they are aligned only along the X,Y axis, and cannot be "angled" to simulate the "fan". The main reason I used polygons was that I could distort them to offset the center of gravity enough to simulate a "Z" coordinate.
Of course, you are right that the only way to test this is with a real model. I've ordered the magnets to do this, and they should be here in three days. I will let you know what I find. Thanks!
Dact