Greetings all,
I thought this might be worth brainstorming and talking about. ;D
The below video has been posted as an electrolytic cell producing HH only---- no Oxygen!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcafoyLtQ9w
It seems a simple cell design and I have a very good idea as to how it is probably being done.
What are your thoughts?
I don't know how he can just produce Hydrogen. Where does the Oxygen go? This may be the last video we see of this guy. I think he will either blow himself up or set his house on fire, geeeeeez
well, it looks like all he's making is just hho. hydrogen by itself would not flash over.
Quote from: gculpex on July 16, 2008, 09:11:49 PM
well, it looks like all he's making is just hho. hydrogen by itself would not flash over.
I disagree.
Hydrogen by itself (without pressurized containment, i.e. balloon, etc.) would definitely flash over... as a matter of fact, when it burns hydrogen gas glows with a telltale ORANGE flame (which is what we see on his video).
It is not under pressure so you get a silent flash over.
I would also argue that the simple observation that there is NO crackling/snapping/popping is proof positive that he's NOT producing HHO and exploding Oxygen. ;)
I agree, that itseems just to be Hydrogen only.
The question is, if his electrodes are getting consumed...?
Maybe he is using some kind of Aluminium alloy and the
oxygen is just going into solution with the alloy as a salt and
Hydrogen is the only reaction product ?
Regards, Stefan.
I kind of agree, the Oxygen has to be oxidizing something. Being used in some kind of chemical reaction.
Here's what you are describing,
we have a "free" oxygen that is now unstable since having the hydrogen bond broken.
The hydrogen is offered an electron (to it's outer shell) by the negative electrode to stabilize it and so it breaks free as a gas.
Once freed, the oxygen is "looking" for an electron to share or tear away to complete it's outer shell and stabilize itself.
It will bond to whatever it is stronger than itself or tear apart whatever it is weaker than itself.... i.e. oxidation, reduction potential (ORP).
Normally, the positive electrode assists in the breaking of the water molecule bond by pulling (offering attraction to) the oxygen,
which tears the molecule apart, then offering it an electron to stabilize.
What you are describing is an electrode (aluminum) that "sacrifices" itself as a metal..... i.e. the oxygen has a stronger attraction to the electrons in the shells of the molecular structure of the aluminum .... and it starts to oxidize the metal to recombine as a metallic salt or an oxide compound.
Certainly, that is one possibility. But that would be producing H2 ultimately through a chemical reaction which is done commonly.
There are many metallic compounds, when dissolved into water, change the ORP, break the water bond and release hydrogen.
The point is.... you don't need current or "artificial" electrolysis to do that. I think something else may be going on here.
Without a sacrificing metal involved (one that cannot be "oxidized") the only course of action for the "free" oxygen,
would be to re-bond with the remaining water molecules forming hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) molecules.
That still leaves the mystery however of how you can have "enough" attraction for the oxygen on the one hand to "break" the water molecule in the first place, but still NOT offer the then "loose" oxygen anything stronger than the water itself to which it then recombines? Quite a riddle.
It is however, what I think he is doing. :)
I just doubt he is getting H2O2. IMHO
It seems to burn a lot slower thatn HHO, so it may be straight Hydrogen. But I also am thinking, one of the electrodes must be absorbing the Oxygen, and therefor must be decaying.
Here is another video demonstration of his cell from March 22 this year.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=qPu6kdvX4ow
It would appear that he is electrolyzing ... i.e. no current = no gas :o
also overdrives his cell (e-z to do with straight 12v DC into a small electrolytic cell)
it appears to start overheating and spitting water out his output hose.
Video, just remember as it gets hotter it gets bigger. I think he will set his house on fire. I think he should invest in some fire insurance. Man..... IDK. I can't watch anymore. The flame gets bigger it is his house on fire. OMG
He mentioned in that last video "3 table-spoons of salt". I had a disaster scenario on my hands with just a quarter of a teaspoon "1.25 ml" of salt, and it created a green slimey substance that engulfed the whole jar, and shorted-out the electrodes, and burned all the wiring.
Let's play along with this.
Let's assume he has what he claims and it can be dialed in to stabilize and produce HH only.... as
cheaply and easily as an HHO cell.
What would be the benefits vs. drawbacks over HHO?
Quote from: goldenequity on July 17, 2008, 09:23:57 PM
Let's play along with this.
Let's assume he has what he claims and it can be dialed in to stabilize and produce HH only.... as
cheaply and easily as an HHO cell.
What would be the benefits vs. drawbacks over HHO?
Well I suppose the benefits could be, that the engine timing may not need as much modification.
Oh my god, I don't see much advantage. If you are using it in your engine to enhance the performance and mileage then you are better off with HHO. I think that there is more energy. I don't know, every time I watch this video I don't know if I should shake my head or laugh... Sorry.
An advantage I may see is that it doesnt burn as hot as HHO and therefore you may not worry about hurting your engine? I wonder about the "leeching effect" of hydrogen into metal with all of these generators. Hydrogen will absorb into metal and weaken it. Has anyone run a HHO gen for long periods of time (thousands of miles) and done an inspection on engine components?
Mark
You know, wait a minute. Doesn't hydrogen burn with a blue flame. When an electron falls from an outer orbit of the hydrogen atom it can emit a photon in the uv range. He said he added salt. Hello.... Sodium, burns with a yellow flame. It just looks like he has an electric candle anyway.
Quote from: slider1 on July 18, 2008, 12:40:06 AM
You know, wait a minute. Doesn't hydrogen burn with a blue flame. When an electron falls from an outer orbit of the hydrogen atom it can emit a photon in the uv range. He said he added salt. Hello.... Sodium, burns with a yellow flame. It just looks like he has an electric candle anyway.
Here's more hydrogen videos...... hydrogen (pure) has an almost 'transparent' orange flame.... difficult to see.
Impurities can allow the flame to be more visible.... anywhere from orange on up to white/yellow.
The impurities could certainly come from reactant minerals/metals/salts in his water.
His cell design is small, only producing a "candle's worth" but hey let's give him some room to improve on the quantity.
I'm still fascinated that it's hydrogen and that's what we're discussing..... he's doing it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaQc--deK0M
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=xqbdvQvCxp8
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6506609172175756838&q=hydrogen+burning&ei=REuASKTAG4jyqwPNrp2cBQ
Electrolyzing salt water generates deadly chlorine gas.
Come on guys why are we even discussing this video, read some of his replys to the comments of the video. IMO he is just a bumpkin trying to sell cheap crap on ebay.
QuoteElectrolyzing salt water generates deadly chlorine gas.
True. You CAN generate Cl2 from the anode.
However it's not quite that cut and dried.
It has to do with creating a redox environment in solution.... a condition created chemically called "overvoltage".
When there is a
dilute solution of salt water electrolyte, you are only making Hydrogen and Oxygen.
When you begin to saturate the solution with an overabundance of Chloride ions, you create overvoltage chemically,
and the anode now reacts with the Chloride ion (cat-ion) instead of the Oxygen. You get chlorine gas.... and hydrogen gas
of course off the cathode.
Its the same with baking soda.... too much and you produce CO2.
Here's the deal.
If he is "inhibiting" the anode (enough) to prevent it's interaction with Oxygen....then it would fail to interact with a Chloride ion as well.
So, no chlorine gas.
The theoretical question I pose is:
How could he do that? :o
Quote from: mostrander on July 18, 2008, 10:53:04 AM
Come on guys why are we even discussing this video, read some of his replys to the comments of the video. IMO he is just a bumpkin trying to sell cheap crap on ebay.
Whether or not he's a bumpkin or trying to get rich ..... I don't really care..... if fact, it kinda makes it more intriguing for me.
He could have included all kinds of meaningless crap in his setup to confuse people if he was trying to deceive or be cunning or clever. :)
yeah i doubt this guy is doing what he says, wouldnt their wouldnt there be more people doing it?
"quantum" and hh come on....
MY QUANTUM GENERATOR turns water into tasty grilled chicken sandwiches, but i wont let you see......
I'm going to theorize a little....
If, by demonstration, he IS producing just HH with electrolysis, (and not chemical redox)
we logically have to deduce that the cathode is busy producing HH while the anode is being inhibited / prevented from producing O.
I think he stumbled onto something in trying different metal electrodes and electrolytes
to see what would happen and observing the effect.
Take for example,
In the Ravi/Lawton/Meyers design..... it became an observed phenomenon that a white "coating" would develop on the anode side of the stainless steel tube design. It was determined that this was beneficial so people started experimenting to enhance and expedite the effect and it then became common to "condition" the tubes for better production. Some questions should be asked.
Why / How did this "dielectric" , non-conductive, coating enhance production?
Production of what? Were you still producing the same ratio of O to H?
What if you used "other" metals for the anode? What kind of coating would that create?
Are you still ionizing (charging) the water with the same ratio of ionization (+) (-) ?
What if an accumulated resident (+) charge of the water itself starts to replace a "coated" anode?
Is the chloride ion even necessary? If so, what "coating" is it creating? On what metal?
Could a normally "sacrificing" metal become coated so as to prevent/inhibit its decay?
This isn't exactly the kind of dialog I was looking to generate... oh well.. see ya. :)
Don't go away! Some good thoughts, let me give it some thought. I see your path of thought, interesting.
The use of Baking Soda will produce the following:
66% Hydrogen
30% Carbon Monoxide
4% Carbon Dioxide
This guy is all talk, with nothing to show. And looking for money
Hi Just my few cents worth.
If you use one Aluminium Electrode and one made of steel or Stainless you essentially create a half wave Rectifier. Using two Aluminium electrodes you have a back to back rectifier and no current will flow after a few minutes.
Try it yourself it works ,using a baking soda solution. It was my first rectifier when I could not effort to buy a selenium one in 1952.
I suppose Salt would work as well but as someone mentioned it gives off nasty Chlorine Gas. Kanzius used saltwater and RF and created just hydrogen and it burned slowly with a orange colored flame.
I used a Light dimmer (CheapPWM) ) and a 60watt bulb in series it will light up half brightness and if you use two Alu.Electrodes
it will slowly dim and soon you have no Light at all,to say this in plain none technical Words.
Professor
Quote from: goldenequity on July 18, 2008, 12:27:45 PM
True. You CAN generate Cl2 from the anode.
However it's not quite that cut and dried.
It has to do with creating a redox environment in solution.... a condition created chemically called "overvoltage".
When there is a dilute solution of salt water electrolyte, you are only making Hydrogen and Oxygen.
When you begin to saturate the solution with an overabundance of Chloride ions, you create overvoltage chemically,
and the anode now reacts with the Chloride ion (cat-ion) instead of the Oxygen. You get chlorine gas.... and hydrogen gas
of course off the cathode.
Its the same with baking soda.... too much and you produce CO2.
Here's the deal.
If he is "inhibiting" the anode (enough) to prevent it's interaction with Oxygen....then it would fail to interact with a Chloride ion as well.
So, no chlorine gas.
The theoretical question I pose is:
How could he do that? :o
Quote from: goldenequity on July 19, 2008, 11:13:31 AM
I'm going to theorize a little....
If, by demonstration, he IS producing just HH with electrolysis, (and not chemical redox)
we logically have to deduce that the cathode is busy producing HH while the anode is being inhibited / prevented from producing O.
I think he stumbled onto something in trying different metal electrodes and electrolytes
to see what would happen and observing the effect.
Take for example,
In the Ravi/Lawton/Meyers design..... it became an observed phenomenon that a white "coating" would develop on the anode side of the stainless steel tube design. It was determined that this was beneficial so people started experimenting to enhance and expedite the effect and it then became common to "condition" the tubes for better production. Some questions should be asked.
Why / How did this "dielectric" , non-conductive, coating enhance production?
Production of what? Were you still producing the same ratio of O to H?
What if you used "other" metals for the anode? What kind of coating would that create?
Are you still ionizing (charging) the water with the same ratio of ionization (+) (-) ?
What if an accumulated resident (+) charge of the water itself starts to replace a "coated" anode?
Is the chloride ion even necessary? If so, what "coating" is it creating? On what metal?
Could a normally "sacrificing" metal become coated so as to prevent/inhibit its decay?
OK, when they talk about plate conditioning, they are referring to the oxidation of the chromium in the stainless steel cells/electrodes. When plates are properly conditioned, the accumulation of brown sludge at the bottom of the cell diminishes to very little/almost nothing. But that takes a little while. Coatings as you refer to are typically on the positive electrode in the form of an oxide (but not written in stone).
They prevent the oxidation of the steel in the stainless steel from absorbing oxygen, thus increasing cell efficiency and oxygen production.
Chlorine isn't needed nor wanted. It reacts with just about everything in a bad way. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine
About the sacrificial metal. You refer to noble metals. Aluminum is one of the most reactive (sacrificial) metals. If you want to run a lawnmower off of Hydrogen, you would use aluminum shavings or slivers in a sealed container (with one small opening to extract the hydrogen) and add a strong alkali to the water. As the aluminum oxidizes, it gives off a lot of heat, and the hydrogen gas. If the aluminum is too thick, it can oxidize over and production can be reduced.
If you want to make an electrically controlled hydroxy cell, the general consensus is to use all stainless steel, preferably 316L grade.
I have been experimenting with the use of copper for the negative electrode and stainless for the positive, since copper is MANY times more conductive than stainless. And it is a terrific conductor of heat. Excellent for heat control if used as a tube instead of a plate.
To preserve the copper, I may stick with baking soda, because a strong alkali could disintegrate the copper.
Copper as a positive electrode disintegrates VERY rapidly.
The absolute best electrodes are made from platinum, but who can afford it?