I have been playing with stainless in different forms (plates, cups, etc.) with varying results. The "twister cups" while having a high output, tend to heat up so much that the metal starts to corrode, which requires disassembling and sanding the surfaces. Plus, the cups I bought predrilled had such crappy holes drilled/punched in them, I am going to garbage them.
Many documents I read about water electrolysis tend to refer often to using platinum electrodes, or nickel in some cases. I have some Monel nickel strips on order to experiment with, however finding platinum plated sheet, etc. has been a dead-end.
Anyone here experimented with these metals at all?
Platinum would probably be OK, don't know for sure but you've got to bear in mind that it's current spot price is US$1745 per ounce which is $62 per gram :o and that's before dealers have put their profit on top.
Another material that I've read is very good is graphite plates, it's supposed to last forever in HHO cell and give very clean results.
Good luck with it all.
Quote from: Yucca on July 31, 2008, 08:40:37 PM
Platinum would probably be OK, don't know for sure but you've got to bear in mind that it's current spot price is US$1745 per ounce which is $62 per gram :o and that's before dealers have put their profit on top.
Another material that I've read is very good is graphite plates, it's supposed to last forever in HHO cell and give very clean results.
Good luck with it all.
The plates, etc. wouldn't have to be pure platinum, just a thin platinum coating.
I have looked at different options online for electroplating, but haven't found an easy way to electroplate platinum.
Good point about plating, I'll bet it's still pricey though. These guys say they can plate platinum onto copper:
http://www.silvexinc.com/platinum_plating.htm
Quote from: Yucca on July 31, 2008, 09:09:00 PM
Good point about plating, I'll bet it's still pricey though. These guys say they can plate platinum onto copper:
http://www.silvexinc.com/platinum_plating.htm
Nice! Thanks for the link - "Platinum-plated titanium anodes used for water purification."
u can probably find somone doing fire coatings with metals.In this process a thin metal layer is put by means of a flame.this way silver if put on mirrors in telescopes and so on.SS is a mixture and nickel is in it.Both nickel and platinium r not easy to get oxydised,so oxygen electrode would last longer.Still not sure if the price is worth the benefit.
Quote from: Creativity on August 02, 2008, 03:17:05 PM
u can probably find somone doing fire coatings with metals.In this process a thin metal layer is put by means of a flame.this way silver if put on mirrors in telescopes and so on.SS is a mixture and nickel is in it.Both nickel and platinium r not easy to get oxydised,so oxygen electrode would last longer.Still not sure if the price is worth the benefit.
FYI to anyone in Canada - McMaster-Carr is no longer shipping to Canada. I tried to order some 316L stainless and some Monel Nickel plates from them.
I may try this product to nickel plate :
Electroless Nickel Kit
http://www.caswellplating.com/kits/electroless.htm
computer Hard Driver Platters are plated with platinum if I remember correctly. If to that would make them very likely candidates for plates, yes?
I tried to build a cell with hard drive platters in the past (im an IT Technician so I have access to lots of failed hard drives) and they are not good candidates as they "corrode" very fast and (the platinum I presume) flakes off the platers very quick, withing a few minutes only ona 12v booster pack
Quote from: raisdfist on October 23, 2010, 11:47:28 AM
I tried to build a cell with hard drive platters in the past (im an IT Technician so I have access to lots of failed hard drives) and they are not good candidates as they "corrode" very fast and (the platinum I presume) flakes off the platers very quick, withing a few minutes only ona 12v booster pack
It is Platinum on the HD platters? Interesting. What is it plated on? Aluminum? Dunno.
Electrolysis does not require 12v per cell to work properly. Maybe the 12v was too much for the HD platters.
Try 5 or 6 individual cells in series. From what I have read, this is the best way to go for simple electrolysis, when using 12v as a source. edited to ad the last 6 words
Mags
I'm an aircraft sheet metal and composite technician by trade (20 years - US Navy Retired).
The corrosion cell, and metal properties have been my job during that time. My job was to "prevent" the corrosion of aluminum aircraft in the salty environment of our oceans. which ironically lends itself to this application perfectly.
I have personally tested the following metals for the purpose of electrolysis:
(12VDC 2amp battery tender used for power supply)
Navy Brass
All grades of aluminum
Mild Steel
High carbon steel
Aircraft grade stainless steel
Nickel
Copper
Tungsten
Titanium
Bronze
Gold
Silver
Platinum
Carbon
inconel
What I found was any metal with a high corrodability placed in the Cathodes position disintegrated quickly but reacted very well. Some metals worked better as anodes vs cathodes. Production was notably different. Titanium has little if any response in either position as compared to other metals. This is probably due to its inherent stability as a metal with no discernible corrosive by-product.
After talking with a couple electro-chemists, and some metallurgists I was informed that using stainless steel produces Hexavelant Chromates (bad ju-ju). It can be reduced with varying methods, but cannot be stopped as part of this process.
Nickel, is also a naturally poisonous material to humans, but supposedly can be used in the Anodes position with little effect on precipitants into the water.
Talk to a chemist, or an electro-chemist, ask pointed questions on the process. Just because you get a great reaction with a certain metal, doesn't mean its safe to use. Some metal to electrolyte combinations result is dangerous gases and poisonous materials being released into the electrolyte. So careful attention to detail is needed in cell construction. I like to think of the end product first. "what will I do with the used electrolyte?" "will it need to be treated as haz-mat?"
Some metals produce a higher quality of gas than others. This has to do with the periodic table, and their physical make up, not brute force electrolysis. Pouring 50 amps into these cells isn't the answer, any more than it is practical.
yes, an easy place to get platinum, I hear you can tear apart old used hard drives, and the platters are plated with it supposedly. The plating is VERY thin, so you would need to keep your voltage down per reaction face in your wet/dry cell, otherwise you'll discharge the coating off of the platter leaving only a thin aluminum plate behind which wont last long. I have no way of proving this. But I have a platter out and have tested it in normal tap water.
But, a recent discovery I found on hydrogen fuel cell electrodes has led to new electrode materials that use 30% less energy to the same reaction of current cells. The materials are only $11, .50 cents per ounce rather than $1700 and $850 per ounce respectively. I am currently looking into sources to procure these materials.
To better understand what were doing in these cells (if you haven't already) read up on the "corrosion cell", "electro-chemical potentials of metals", and "half reactions".
Those reads are the fundamentals of what we are doing with these cells. Knowledge is power, and safety. To me it makes no sense to make a "green device" that save on fuel/energy consumption, yet produces toxic waste.
I started working on these cells about 2 years ago. I hopefully should have all the materials together for a full flow, gas separator dry cell by next month, and Ill start working on construction once the materials arrive.
I came up with the design by studying hydrogen fuel cells and their inner working/materials.
I'm not proclaiming to be all knowledgeable here in anyway. I have been studying this process for two years. I have been taking my experience, and thoughts to professors while I'm studying for my degree in engineering. I am simply passing on what I have learned, or at least a portion of it. ;) So please don't blast me... LOL
i think this science is just the tip of the ice berg on what hydrogen can do productively.
Heres a video,
I used a platinum coated hard drive platter, and a piece of aircraft grade stainless steel. I laid two strips of electrical tape on them(stacked on each side), to separate them.
The water is straight out of the faucet tap water I measured the temp to be 112 degrees F.
My power supply was a 240 watt power supply, and I was using the 12VDC circuit (yellow wires)
I placed the gap very close to show it works only. As a matter of fact the bubbles that collected made some entertaining cracks loud enough to get the attention of my 16 y/o daughter. ;D
Anyways heres the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmJjmE0eVE4&feature=youtu.be
Hello ydeardorff;
I think that your input on platinum electrodes is fascinating, it seems to be the best metal for conductivity and corrosion resistance.
How is your development and research going?
Are you going to be testing a cell soon?
Might you build them if you do have success with your prototype(s)?
Do you 'currently' think that platinum deposition on a titanium plate substrate is an ideal solution for anode and cathode? Is vacuum deposition of Pt going to stand up to moderate amperage's in a cell?
Sorry for the grilling, but your experience and interest in this is significant. Thanks and keep posting.
Phil
Platinum, is not cost effective, but yes makes a great electrode. Thats why its used in fuel cells, and why fuels cells cost a lot of money.
I have been taking a lot of classes while Im in college that revolve around this, or cover items that pertain to this project. Much more thought is need into what metals want to do at the atomic level, why some corrode faster than others, and what their chemical potential is.
Im straying away from platinum myself, and moving toward other metals, and elements that are more reactive, and readily produce hydrogen. Im also experimenting with other non traditional electrolytes that contain more H moles, than water. such as pure glucose. If their is more to grab per molecule, their may be better production. Chemistry, and the periodic table are key points to master in this thought process.
But no matter what stainless is out due to the poisonous leaching that occurs. We are trying to make a better fuel source, not hazardous waste.
I agree that much more research and development needs to be done. I was struck by your comment "But, a recent discovery I found on hydrogen fuel cell electrodes has led to new electrode materials that use 30% less energy to the same reaction of current cells". That sounds great, is that material something that you are continuing to look in to?
I guess that at such a low cost and high performance of that potential material, it makes sense for you to move on from Pt.
Phil
For instance some materials oon the periodic table "want to be noble" naturally. They naturally want to gain, or lose electrons making them more reactive. Such as carbon. by exploiting this, the reaction within the cell can be be magnified exponentially, with less input voltage applied. This is because the material used "naturally" wants to become something else due to its atomic structure.
Read up on these topics:
The corrosion cell
The electro-chemical potential of metals
The periodic table
Metallurgy
Chemistry
Also through chemistry we can come to understand what is happening within our cell. This includes the break down, and creation of molecules. By knowing what we are messing with, we can prevent making poisonous waste. For instance nickel is naturally a poisonous metal. But placing it in the right position in the cell it will not leach out. But placed oppositely it will releasing a poison into the electrolyte.
On the electrolyte, for instance the previously mentioned glucose, has 16 hydrogen atoms in it, while water has only 2. Im not saying glucose is better, only opening the idea that there may be much better options than water that contain much higher levels of hydrogen than water, yet are just as benign, and cheap to procure, while not being flammable, and dangerous to use in our cells.
Quote from: FosterVS on July 31, 2008, 08:23:37 PM
I have been playing with stainless in different forms (plates, cups, etc.) with varying results. The "twister cups" while having a high output, tend to heat up so much that the metal starts to corrode, which requires disassembling and sanding the surfaces. Plus, the cups I bought predrilled had such crappy holes drilled/punched in them, I am going to garbage them.
Many documents I read about water electrolysis tend to refer often to using platinum electrodes, or nickel in some cases. I have some Monel nickel strips on order to experiment with, however finding platinum plated sheet, etc. has been a dead-end.
Anyone here experimented with these metals at all?
I think hard disks are made of platinum, maybe this can be used.
Yes some are. But the coating is VERY thin and fragile. Over volting the cell can rip the coating off. (been there done that)
My video posted earlier shows me using a platinum disk platter.
Quote from: ydeardorff on April 09, 2012, 09:23:31 PM
For instance some materials oon the periodic table "want to be noble" naturally. They naturally want to gain, or lose electrons making them more reactive. Such as carbon. by exploiting this, the reaction within the cell can be be magnified exponentially, with less input voltage applied. This is because the material used "naturally" wants to become something else due to its atomic structure.
Read up on these topics:
The corrosion cell
The electro-chemical potential of metals
The periodic table
Metallurgy
Chemistry
Also through chemistry we can come to understand what is happening within our cell. This includes the break down, and creation of molecules. By knowing what we are messing with, we can prevent making poisonous waste. For instance nickel is naturally a poisonous metal. But placing it in the right position in the cell it will not leach out. But placed oppositely it will releasing a poison into the electrolyte.
On the electrolyte, for instance the previously mentioned glucose, has 16 hydrogen atoms in it, while water has only 2. Im not saying glucose is better, only opening the idea that there may be much better options than water that contain much higher levels of hydrogen than water, yet are just as benign, and cheap to procure, while not being flammable, and danger
Your post is interesting.
I've been building and testing hydrogen generators using different approaches and materials. We seem to have the same idea and I only need to use the right power supply. I only use tap water this time though.
Quote from: Hydrogenie on April 13, 2012, 04:44:15 PM
Your post is interesting.
I've been building and testing hydrogen generators using different approaches and materials. We seem to have the same idea and I only need to use the right power supply. I only use tap water this time though.
It would be better to use distilled water. Tap water contains minerals, flouride, chlorine, and many other bad things to place in these cells.
At least by using distilled water, even if you need to add something to it, you know exactly what is in it. And susequently what youll be getting out of it isnt poisonous.
Remember what goes into our cells is as important as what comes out.
Quote from: ydeardorff on April 13, 2012, 05:20:10 PM
It would be better to use distilled water. Tap water contains minerals, flouride, chlorine, and many other bad things to place in these cells.
At least by using distilled water, even if you need to add something to it, you know exactly what is in it. And susequently what youll be getting out of it isnt poisonous.
Remember what goes into our cells is as important as what comes out.
True.
I've actually used deionized water. But for now, I just use tap water and use distilled water later. Have you built and tested generators as per your research?
I tried DC source but encountered some problems and discovered its limit. Are you an electrochemist? I discovered something in my tests that there might be stray currents I produced in the process. You mentioned also about corrosion and I want to know more on current exchange density.
Quote from: Hydrogenie on April 13, 2012, 06:25:38 PM
True.
I've actually used deionized water. But for now, I just use tap water and use distilled water later. Have you built and tested generators as per your research?
I tried DC source but encountered some problems and discovered its limit. Are you an electrochemist? I discovered something in my tests that there might be stray currents I produced in the process. You mentioned also about corrosion and I want to know more on current exchange density.
I am not an electro-chemist. Studying metals, and corrosion has been my job for the last two decades. I have been working on these cells for almost 3 years now. I am currently studying mechanical engineering. Being I am in class, I am able to pick the brains of my professors. A lot of my subject matter works right around what I've been working on. So this helps explain a lot of things, and has sent me in new directions with my design. Better to research first, than waste money building, then changing my mind after Ive bought tons of material some of which is very expensive.
I have picked the brains of many electro-chemists, metallurgists, and engineers. At every point I have been warned to completely stay away from stainless steel. So I do.
Id love to help you on the current density problem your having. But Id have to look it up, which would make me playing catch up to you. lol
The corrosion cell is at the heart of what we are doing in these cells. Only we are forcing it to happen under applied voltage.
Give a call to your local college, and ask a professor. Many are willing to help, some even get excited about your project as well.
I have built wet cell versions for testing purposes. I have two more combinations to test before I build my separator full flow cell.
Also in response to an earlier post. After i called and chewed the ear off of the engineers at a non-nuclear hydrogen production company. They told me over I believe it was 8 volts hydrogen production quality starts to suffer. So they run their massive electrolyzers on only 8 volts. Now this may have been per plate gap, or over the whole thing. I dont remember.