I must appologise in advance for the length that this post will be..sorry about that.
the content of this post isnt fact but my theory of the wheel and the principle of how and why it could work!, i thought long and hard whether to post this for various reasons, i decided to put it out there for everyone just in case it works or may lead to a working wheel, im not a selfish person by nature and i don't want to start being one now.
Ok, like most ive thought of every conceivable way to get the wheel rotating and keep rotating but i have hit all the walls
that everybody else has hit, then i bought the AP book from john collins and also MT book and read from start to finish.
I reached the point were the infamous metaphor is printed and tried to understand what he may be trying to explain, also the picture at the end of the
book preceded by the biblical verses, i may be able to shed some light on this also!.
i will concentrate on only a small portion of the metaphor below. "thanks to john Collins"
A wheel appears on the scene - is it really a wheel,
for it does not have the normal type of rim. It revolves, but
without other wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind,
or springs. Seen sideways or full-face it is as resplendent as a
peacock's tail. It turns to the right and to the left; it spins around
in any possible direction, whether laden or empty.
All things belong to one of the three kingdoms (animal, vegetable,
matter) and - you have the physical evidence in front of you.
Without such things as sulphur, salt and mercury all things will
soon come to a standstill - the qualities of the elements are
necessary to keep things going. Saturn, Mars and Jupiter are
ready to join in any battle. Even the things we eat do not lose their
elemental influence - for it spreads itself through every limb and
sinew of our bodies. A crab crawls from side to side. It is sound,
for it is designed thus. Poltergeists often wander freely through
locked doors.
Now there are certain parts of this metaphor i would like to concentrate on as i feel that they may be relevant, also the at the end of the AP book the strange picture is something else i would like to discuss.
Now bessler talks about how his wheel is resplendant as a peacocks tail, i looked through the MT book and the only drawing that was anything near a peacocks tail was drawing number 15 !.
He then talks about all things belong to 1 of 3 kingdoms!, could this be a link to drawing number 13?....hold that thought!.
We move on to "Without such things as sulphur, salt and mercury all things will
soon come to a standstill - the qualities of the elements are
necessary to keep things going", ok so this refers to alchemy.
Salt = Salt is known as the "contractive force" .
Sulfur = was used to denote the "expansive force".
Mercury = represented the "integrative force".
This would indicate that the wheel uses expansive, contractive with and integrative force for it to function!.
ok next we have what i think is the most important part of the device and that is described by "Saturn, Mars and Jupiter are
ready to join in any battle", i think this part of the metaphor relates to the picture at the end of the AP book!, i studied the planets Mars Saturn and Jupiter and took measurements of there diameter's i then scaled these down and overlaid them to descover they look like the picure below
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi512.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft325%2Ffreeenergy%2Fplanetsoverlaid.jpg&hash=6ebdeb3a63e1a172425f14b132ac38c45273aa34)
wow this looks very much like the center of the picture in the AP book seen below,
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi512.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft325%2Ffreeenergy%2Fwithoutunderstanding.jpg&hash=6d1a449ee3e748c26b2e80023b60875e749649c2)
so now i search the whole of the MT book looking for this same picture to find it smack bang in the middle of picture number 13, yes there are others that look similar but not the same!.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi512.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft325%2Ffreeenergy%2FMT13planets.jpg&hash=dcb17c852faace47c0217016e92ad1f7bbed12a8)
Then this brings us to"A crab crawls from side to side. It is sound,
for it is designed thus" and this side to side explains the movement of our pendulum in the center of picture number 13.
So after this it looks like there could be a link between picture 13 and 15 in MT, and dont forget these are 2 pictures that for some reason were drawn to run "anticlockwise" in the original MT book!.
Right now we will look at the second part of the picture in the AP book, the equal 3 sections that surround our mars saturn and jupiter, these segments are 22.5 degrees each now divide our 360 degree circle by 22.5 and you get 16, now the only picture in the MT book that has 16 equal segments is.....wait for it..you got it drawing number 15 as seen below.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi512.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft325%2Ffreeenergy%2FMT15segments.jpg&hash=ff9cbed3f3d676fef033dacaca78740c1b8bdcb4)
In the Book MT bessler describes picture number 13 and says it would run well if it were not for the friction, and in picture number 15 he also says that the prime mover's source cannot be seen or deduced but the figure shows an over balance , so whats its source?...could it be the pendulum in picture 13, the friction might be overcome by the extra leverage by the long limbs!.
Now at the end of the book were the strange picture is, there are also some verses just above, now i could it be the wheel is actually given away here?, its as if he has let you read his whole book and given you the answers right at the end.
Jacob III.v.14.15.16
Matth.XV.v.16
all these pitures in the MT book are variations of the one before and seem to have a slightly modified characteristic than the previous one, the only exception in picture number 3 depicted by III, i feel that this may be a link to picture number 13.
so if we combine different parts of the pictures 13 with 15 and taking small details from 14 16 we have something that looks like this picture below
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi512.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft325%2Ffreeenergy%2FChadWheel.jpg&hash=ec2de38b98817a6e19c156859188c8334a860677)
Now im not saying this is exactly how i think that besslers wheel looked but i think that this is the principle, i know that the weight on the right of the wheel may not be enough to lift the next limb into place but i do know that the weight on the right is enough to drag the pendulum to the right were it will eventually be let go, now this is were i think the wheel comes to life!, as the pendulum falls back towards the center it gains momentum and hits the next lever with enough force to lift the next limb into place!, is momentum the key that nobody has been using?.
The machine will gain a natural rhythm were it will increase speed because none or very little of the wheels momentum is lost due to the pendulum gaining and storing that energy then sending that kinetic energy through the lever raising the next limb.
bessler said :-
"all the inmost parts, and the perpetual-motion structures, retain the power of free movement, as I've been saying since 1712."
the force the pendulum gains through momentum is enough to shift the limb up and not effect the momentum of the wheel.
"The clattering noise you refer to is, I assure you, a phenomenon caused directly by the real motive power of the machine, and nothing else."
This would be the sound of the pendulum hitting the little levers that raise the limbs
"a work of this kind of craftsmanship has, at its basis of motion, many separate pieces of lead. These come in pairs, such that as one of them takes up an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle. Later, they swap places, and so they go on and on changing places all the time."
the limbs are slid up and the weights swap places as he states.
"A great craftsman would be that man who can 'lightly' cause a heavy weight to fly upwards! Who can make a pound-weight rise as 4 ounces fall, or 4 pounds rise as 16 ounces fall. If he can sort that out, the motion will perpetuate itself. But if he can't, then his hard work shall be all in vain."
when the weights on the right pulls the pendulum to the right it is then released were it strikes the next lever wich is also traveling the opposite way to what the pendulum is swinging and the force is enough to raise the weight very rapidly indeed and take very little if anything from the wheel causing the wheel to speed up and gain momentum from its constant falling weights.
"Many would-be Mobile-makers think that if they can arrange for some of the weights to be a little more distant from the center than the others, then the thing will surely revolve. A few years ago, I learned all about this the hard way. And then the truth of the old proverb came home to be that one has to learn through bitter experience."
the pendulum has been the missing key.
In a true Perpetuum Mobile everything must, necessarily, go round together. There can be nothing involved in it which remains stationary on the axle."
Bessler never admitted to weights being on the axle but he never said there wasnt a pendulum ;), The pendulum swings back and forth rapidly, and is never
stationary.
the rest of the quotes can be found here , you should see that they all seem to have at least some relevance to the description i have given.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Portal:Clues
There could also be an answer for the strange attachment that was seen on the bessler wheel, i think this was some kind of timing device for the internal pendulum maybe to prevent it from swinging to far and becoming out of balance, maybe that some of the pendulums energy was transfered to this pendulum type device so it wasn't wasted and could be retrieved on the back swing. bessler said that it could be knocked out of balance.
obviously i don't think this is the finished item but i do think it gives us something solid to work on.
picture quality may suffer through resizing.
hope you have enjoyed the read.
With Thanks to
john collins
besslerwheel.com
offyre.com
Thanks guys
Chad.
Hi. Excellent post, definitely gave me something to think about! I am coming around to a similar opinion regarding pendulums, namely that you won't get PM without one. This view was further fueled after reading the below article involving two-stage oscillators, particularily where the author shows how the pendulum can impart considerable energy to the driven section, while its own movement is relatively immune to the forces acting on the rest of the mechanism - which to me at least is unexpected and counter-intuitive...
http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/milkovic/milkovic.htm)
Quote from: Chad on August 03, 2008, 03:43:16 PM
I must appologise in advance for the length that this post will be..sorry about that.
the content of this post isnt fact but my theory of the wheel and the principle of how and why it could work!, i thought long and hard whether to post this for various reasons, i decided to put it out there for everyone just in case it works or may lead to a working wheel, im not a selfish person by nature and i don't want to start being one now.
Ok, like most ive thought of every conceivable way to get the wheel rotating and keep rotating but i have hit all the walls
that everybody else has hit, then i bought the AP book from john collins and also MT book and read from start to finish.
I reached the point were the infamous metaphor is printed and tried to understand what he may be trying to explain, also the picture at the end of the
book preceded by the biblical verses, i may be able to shed some light on this also!.
i will concentrate on only a small portion of the metaphor below. "thanks to john Collins"
A wheel appears on the scene - is it really a wheel,
for it does not have the normal type of rim. It revolves, but
without other wheels inside or outside, and without weights, wind,
or springs. Seen sideways or full-face it is as resplendent as a
peacock's tail. It turns to the right and to the left; it spins around
in any possible direction, whether laden or empty.
All things belong to one of the three kingdoms (animal, vegetable,
matter) and - you have the physical evidence in front of you.
Without such things as sulphur, salt and mercury all things will
soon come to a standstill - the qualities of the elements are
necessary to keep things going. Saturn, Mars and Jupiter are
ready to join in any battle. Even the things we eat do not lose their
elemental influence - for it spreads itself through every limb and
sinew of our bodies. A crab crawls from side to side. It is sound,
for it is designed thus. Poltergeists often wander freely through
locked doors.
Now there are certain parts of this metaphor i would like to concentrate on as i feel that they may be relevant, also the at the end of the AP book the strange picture is something else i would like to discuss.
Now bessler talks about how his wheel is resplendant as a peacocks tail, i looked through the MT book and the only drawing that was anything near a peacocks tail was drawing number 15 !.
He then talks about all things belong to 1 of 3 kingdoms!, could this be a link to drawing number 13?....hold that thought!.
We move on to "Without such things as sulphur, salt and mercury all things will
soon come to a standstill - the qualities of the elements are
necessary to keep things going", ok so this refers to alchemy.
Salt = Salt is known as the "contractive force" .
Sulfur = was used to denote the "expansive force".
Mercury = represented the "integrative force".
This would indicate that the wheel uses expansive, contractive with and integrative force for it to function!.
ok next we have what i think is the most important part of the device and that is described by "Saturn, Mars and Jupiter are
ready to join in any battle", i think this part of the metaphor relates to the picture at the end of the AP book!, i studied the planets Mars Saturn and Jupiter and took measurements of there diameter's i then scaled these down and overlaid them to descover they look like the picure below
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi512.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft325%2Ffreeenergy%2Fplanetsoverlaid.jpg&hash=6ebdeb3a63e1a172425f14b132ac38c45273aa34)
wow this looks very much like the center of the picture in the AP book seen below,
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi512.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft325%2Ffreeenergy%2Fwithoutunderstanding.jpg&hash=6d1a449ee3e748c26b2e80023b60875e749649c2)
so now i search the whole of the MT book looking for this same picture to find it smack bang in the middle of picture number 13, yes there are others that look similar but not the same!.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi512.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft325%2Ffreeenergy%2FMT13planets.jpg&hash=dcb17c852faace47c0217016e92ad1f7bbed12a8)
Then this brings us to"A crab crawls from side to side. It is sound,
for it is designed thus" and this side to side explains the movement of our pendulum in the center of picture number 13.
So after this it looks like there could be a link between picture 13 and 15 in MT, and dont forget these are 2 pictures that for some reason were drawn to run "anticlockwise" in the original MT book!.
Right now we will look at the second part of the picture in the AP book, the equal 3 sections that surround our mars saturn and jupiter, these segments are 22.5 degrees each now divide our 360 degree circle by 22.5 and you get 16, now the only picture in the MT book that has 16 equal segments is.....wait for it..you got it drawing number 15 as seen below.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi512.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft325%2Ffreeenergy%2FMT15segments.jpg&hash=ff9cbed3f3d676fef033dacaca78740c1b8bdcb4)
In the Book MT bessler describes picture number 13 and says it would run well if it were not for the friction, and in picture number 15 he also says that the prime mover's source cannot be seen or deduced but the figure shows an over balance , so whats its source?...could it be the pendulum in picture 13, the friction might be overcome by the extra leverage by the long limbs!.
Now at the end of the book were the strange picture is, there are also some verses just above, now i could it be the wheel is actually given away here?, its as if he has let you read his whole book and given you the answers right at the end.
Jacob III.v.14.15.16
Matth.XV.v.16
all these pitures in the MT book are variations of the one before and seem to have a slightly modified characteristic than the previous one, the only exception in picture number 3 depicted by III, i feel that this may be a link to picture number 13.
so if we combine different parts of the pictures 13 with 15 and taking small details from 14 16 we have something that looks like this picture below
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi512.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft325%2Ffreeenergy%2FChadWheel.jpg&hash=ec2de38b98817a6e19c156859188c8334a860677)
Now im not saying this is exactly how i think that besslers wheel looked but i think that this is the principle, i know that the weight on the right of the wheel may not be enough to lift the next limb into place but i do know that the weight on the right is enough to drag the pendulum to the right were it will eventually be let go, now this is were i think the wheel comes to life!, as the pendulum falls back towards the center it gains momentum and hits the next lever with enough force to lift the next limb into place!, is momentum the key that nobody has been using?.
The machine will gain a natural rhythm were it will increase speed because none or very little of the wheels momentum is lost due to the pendulum gaining and storing that energy then sending that kinetic energy through the lever raising the next limb.
bessler said :-
"all the inmost parts, and the perpetual-motion structures, retain the power of free movement, as I've been saying since 1712."
the force the pendulum gains through momentum is enough to shift the limb up and not effect the momentum of the wheel.
"The clattering noise you refer to is, I assure you, a phenomenon caused directly by the real motive power of the machine, and nothing else."
This would be the sound of the pendulum hitting the little levers that raise the limbs
"a work of this kind of craftsmanship has, at its basis of motion, many separate pieces of lead. These come in pairs, such that as one of them takes up an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle. Later, they swap places, and so they go on and on changing places all the time."
the limbs are slid up and the weights swap places as he states.
"A great craftsman would be that man who can 'lightly' cause a heavy weight to fly upwards! Who can make a pound-weight rise as 4 ounces fall, or 4 pounds rise as 16 ounces fall. If he can sort that out, the motion will perpetuate itself. But if he can't, then his hard work shall be all in vain."
when the weights on the right pulls the pendulum to the right it is then released were it strikes the next lever wich is also traveling the opposite way to what the pendulum is swinging and the force is enough to raise the weight very rapidly indeed and take very little if anything from the wheel causing the wheel to speed up and gain momentum from its constant falling weights.
"Many would-be Mobile-makers think that if they can arrange for some of the weights to be a little more distant from the center than the others, then the thing will surely revolve. A few years ago, I learned all about this the hard way. And then the truth of the old proverb came home to be that one has to learn through bitter experience."
the pendulum has been the missing key.
In a true Perpetuum Mobile everything must, necessarily, go round together. There can be nothing involved in it which remains stationary on the axle."
Bessler never admitted to weights being on the axle but he never said there wasnt a pendulum ;), The pendulum swings back and forth rapidly, and is never
stationary.
the rest of the quotes can be found here , you should see that they all seem to have at least some relevance to the description i have given.
http://www.besslerwheel.com/wiki/index.php?title=Portal:Clues
There could also be an answer for the strange attachment that was seen on the bessler wheel, i think this was some kind of timing device for the internal pendulum maybe to prevent it from swinging to far and becoming out of balance, maybe that some of the pendulums energy was transfered to this pendulum type device so it wasn't wasted and could be retrieved on the back swing. bessler said that it could be knocked out of balance.
obviously i don't think this is the finished item but i do think it gives us something solid to work on.
picture quality may suffer through resizing.
hope you have enjoyed the read.
With Thanks to
john collins
besslerwheel.com
offyre.com
Thanks guys
Chad.
Thats a very interesting theory, how is the pendulum pulled so that it may swing back a forth? Its a good idea because once started the pendulum wouldn't need much energy to keep it swing as the wheel revolves...
thank you guys.
Alex this is the principle of the wheel.
when the wheel's over ballanced right hand side begins to fall it imparts some of the energy of the falling 16 weights to the pendulum wich forces the top pendulum to lean quite far to the right hand side, it has 16 weights that weigh 1 pound each on the right side.. 8 x 1lb weights on the end and 8 on the inside.
Now when the wheel falls some of the energy is lost due to friction and from lifting the weights on the left hand side, but not to worry there is an excess of energy due to the leverage of the rods being extended on the right side.
So the right side is falling and it is dragging the top of pendulum to the right using the levers that are attached to the rods that have the weights attached, now there comes a point were the pendulum is released as the lever is forced sideways causing it to lift the rod, then the pendulum swings to the left were it hits the next lever with a greater force than what it had in the first place..why?.. because the pendulum base has fallen gaining momentum wich causes the top to hit the next lever harder lifting it very quickly, then the process repeats gaining momentum each cycle.
Use the weight of many to lift one!, break the weight into small equal sections and lift a section at a time using the weight and momentum of the rest through the action of the pendulum and as an "integrating force" described by bessler himself when he mentions "mercury" along with other elements!, mercury was described in alchemy as" the integrating force!".
this is how bessler did it.
hmmm seems good to me, what about the toy page though? I am currently looking at it about the jacobs ladder toy which I belive to be a way the weights are connected...
this may be true alex, but i have found the important part of the puzzle..."The Principle", all we have to do now is find a very efficient way of using the energy stored in the pendulum to lift the cross-bar as bessler said with only one cross-bar the device could hardly turn itself but with more!.
so what ever means necessary to lift that cross-bar, but i believe you will have to use the principle!.
The toy page could be pointing at something else and not the design but more the action!!!, the jacobs ladder is basically a device that looks like it is constantly falling just like our weighted cross-bars!!!, the little guys on the toy with hammers could indicate a back and forth motion and a striking motion, just like our pendulum, and remember in the metaphor there is a part that says "an anvil receives many blows", the pendulum moves back and forth and strikes every lever.
Chad.
I like where this is going, I would like to add you to my email contacts if you like?
The pendulum is a really good idea, once a pendulum is going, it only takes a small amount of force to keep it going and that small amount of force could come from the turing of the wheel... but then we ask what raises the weights, well since the wheel gives the pendulum that extra push, the pendulum therefore can use some of its energy, not all, but some to lift the weights which will turn the wheel that will keep the pendulum going...
Now there must be some really simple way to do this, but how....
Bessler's wheel started turning with little or no help. It then took only two rev's to accelerate to a constant 26 turns a minute. This goes against the behaviour that I'd expect for a pendulum drive. Although it must have had a timing device of some description (clockwork helper?) else it would have continued accelerating.
What I'd like to know is why couldn't his wheel run for more than a couple of months? Spring wound down?
Quote from: Marctwo on August 04, 2008, 07:33:50 AM
Bessler's wheel started turning with little or no help. It then took only two rev's to accelerate to a constant 26 turns a minute. This goes against the behaviour that I'd expect for a pendulum drive. Although it must have had a timing device of some description (clockwork helper?) else it would have continued accelerating.
What I'd like to know is why couldn't his wheel run for more than a couple of months? Spring wound down?
Who said it couldn't run for more than a couple of months?
As far as I know, his wheel was deliberately stopped after 2 (+) months.... Go figure....???
Springs? Nope....
Quote from: Marctwo on August 04, 2008, 07:33:50 AM.....What I'd like to know is why couldn't his wheel run for more than a couple of months? Spring wound down?
Geez! - and if Bessler's wheel had only been run for 2 weeks in the 'castle' test, (before being forcibly stopped as the test had concluded) you would instead be asking "why couldn't his wheel run for more than a couple of weeks..."!!! Again, the wheel was forcibly stopped after 2 months 'cos it had been shown to the satisfaction of all that it did indeed do what Bessler claimed. Even with our 'space-age' technology, the best that could be achieved today through the conservation of momentum would probably be a few hours, so what would have been achieved by letting a wheel that used 18th century technology, run for years? Absolutely nothing...
hehe - I see someone just beat me to it... :D
Well, folk'll believe what they want to believe.
Could this have been pure gravity power? Who knows?
Could it have used springs, magnets, etc. to give it that extra little push over the top? Yes!
I, like everyone else, don't know how it worked. And I don't take speculation and rumor as fact.
@marctwo
dont worry im not hear saying i have built a wheel and it works, i am merely trying to show a theory that i think holds promise.
If you dont believe then that is fine my friend, were are hear trying to find evidence that it did work, just like the forensic team in a murder case piecing together a crime scene, if we keep looking and studying then maybe just maybe we find the clue that cements the whole case together.
join in you might enjoy it ;)
Chad.
@Chad: I have joined in. :D
My first post above says that I don't think a pendulum would have been used due to the nature of how this wheel is reported to start. However, due to the constant nature of the wheel's full speed, I'd imagine that a timing mechanism of some kind would have been used. Maybe some kind of clockwork helper (but not necessarily spring powered :)).
Greetings Chad
I am working up a response to what you have written and it is taking me a bit so I'll be back with it. later.
But for now, you may want to look at this design I have posted for people to try.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5226.0.html
hey thanks Alan, no worrys take your time im still taking notes and researching.
Ive taken a look at the thread you posted and il do some research on this also.
Thanks
Chad.
Hi Chad
Nice thinking, but if maybe you can simplify the design will give a better chance for it to be bessler's because his design was said on 3 occassion that it was very simple in construction. I will share my best design so far soon.
All the best
-Charles
Quote from: gurangax on August 05, 2008, 01:05:15 AM
Hi Chad
Nice thinking, but if maybe you can simplify the design will give a better chance for it to be bessler's because his design was said on 3 occassion that it was very simple in construction. I will share my best design so far soon.
All the best
-Charles
Hi charles
this may or may not be the design but i dont think were a million miles off but who knows?.
The design is a simple one, dont let the look of it scare you, bessler's wheel was said to producce 8 bumps per rotation wich would indicate only 4 cross-bars wich would look like the picture below
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi512.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft325%2Ffreeenergy%2FChadWheelsimple.jpg&hash=0726307036b8782fc4206d049ab63551f7e04bb3)
it doesnt look quite as intimidating now does it, now try and imagine it with only one cross-bar even simpler, bessler said the wheel:-
1, with only one Cross-bar could bearly turn by itself
2, it contained "Weights"
3, it contained "pullys"
He said it was "resplendant as a peacocks tail".
He said the at "its basis of motion, many separate pieces of lead. These come in pairs, such that as one of them takes up an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle. Later, they swap places, and so they go on and on changing places all the time"
i just have some more testing to do with regards to a pendulum as a power source or as an integrating source for the wheel.
Thanks
Chad.
Quote from: Chad on August 05, 2008, 02:34:54 AM
Hi charles
this may or may not be the design but i dont think were a million miles off but who knows?.
The design is a simple one, dont let the look of it scare you, bessler's wheel was said to producce 8 bumps per rotation wich would indicate only 4 cross-bars wich would look like the picture below
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi512.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ft325%2Ffreeenergy%2FChadWheelsimple.jpg&hash=0726307036b8782fc4206d049ab63551f7e04bb3)
it doesnt look quite as intimidating now does it, now try and imagine it with only one cross-bar even simpler, bessler said the wheel:-
1, with only one Cross-bar could bearly turn by itself
2, it contained "Weights"
3, it contained "pullys"
He said it was "resplendant as a peacocks tail".
He said the at "its basis of motion, many separate pieces of lead. These come in pairs, such that as one of them takes up an outer position, the other takes up a position nearer the axle. Later, they swap places, and so they go on and on changing places all the time"
i just have some more testing to do with regards to a pendulum as a power source or as an integrating source for the wheel.
Thanks
Chad.
That is good, now we need to work on this to make it more simple and I belive there are a few things missing here... Springs are needed because when they have bent so far, they fling "upwards" whichs is something of use to any perpetual wheel and also a scissor jack which a small movement on one side makes a large one the other side which might have something to do with teh 4 -1 ratio...
This doesnt mean the wheel is going to get more complicated, things just need to be taken and swaped maybe added here and there until you have the basic mechanism which then can be made more simple...
Alex
Edit: The little weights that are attached by the lever also need attching to eachother so they help pull eachother up, even better still now...
Second Edit: Mind if I put a few improvments?
Here is a way to make the weights do more...
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.tinypic.com%2F2qjd44m.jpg&hash=1ce287bfebcbc5412764b98a0983300e2ae18439)
when they weights are lifted by the pendulum plus the selves they pull the cross bar up, when they go in at the bottom, they push the crossbar up... (mt 25)
by the way, the little weights can be made slightly lighter than the rods and they will still lift, there are reasons why which I will explain sometime on this post...
springs are now needed, scissor jacks and a way to make the little weights to go closer to the axle...
nice Alex,
Is the flip weight on the left hand side resting on the cross-bar or is it the tension in the string holding it there?, idealy we could do with getting that weight to lie down to increase the imbalance on the right side.
Chad.
OK
Here is what we are going to have to do.
First we need a wheel blank and a pendulum with a top roller end.
How big do we want to make it? I suggest a two foot wheel for the base wheel, but a 2 1/2 ft for Alex style so there is a place to mount on.
We have to make the parts or purchase other parts that will work.
Now we also have to look at this as a hammer wheel as well as a slide wheel. Friction is going to be bugger not to mention are we going to have enough overbalance to overcome the shift?
Alex has springs and scissor jacks, but when it comes to springs. Where is the power for reset of the springs going to come from?
This is what happens when we start builds, and I think if we talk on how to make the build past the design stage we might get a better idea of how or if a wheel will work.
Quote from: AB Hammer on August 05, 2008, 05:40:14 PM
OK
Here is what we are going to have to do.
First we need a wheel blank and a pendulum with a top roller end.
How big do we want to make it? I suggest a two foot wheel for the base wheel, but a 2 1/2 ft for Alex style so there is a place to mount on.
We have to make the parts or purchase other parts that will work.
Now we also have to look at this as a hammer wheel as well as a slide wheel. Friction is going to be bugger not to mention are we going to have enough overbalance to overcome the shift?
Alex has springs and scissor jacks, but when it comes to springs. Where is the power for reset of the springs going to come from?
This is what happens when we start builds, and I think if we talk on how to make the build past the design stage we might get a better idea of how or if a wheel will work.
Hold on a min, ALan you can use a spring by attaching a weight to the end of one like MT 18 which as the weight gets closer to the axle of the wheel the spring suddenly throws the weight upwards...
First, before we start building, we need to improve this wheel, firstly
1. Springs need to be added
2. Scissor jacks need to be added
3. The weights around the wheel need to be able to go closer to the axle on the ascending side whilestill doing their job...
The idea IMO of the pendulum is to assist with the lifting of the weights which it can do as you know...
when I or one of you have added the 3 above things then we can move on IMHO...
Here is a way to add the spring, the pendulum hits the right angle which the spring is attched and as it lifts it also fling the weight up, which actually this is a strong effect, very strong...
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi36.tinypic.com%2F2rossbo.jpg&hash=0cb64e4935fc8c2e47aaa5e3674df56deac8ae1c)
Alex
A leaf spring attached in that position has 2 problematic effects.
1. CF is a problem using leaf springs for they like to hold the weight out with just a little speed.
2. When you get a weight heavy enough to keep 1 problem from happening you create a different problem. When the weight as in your picture approaches and hits the roller for the flip the spring will flex towards the roller before it could flip causing massive friction, and then may flip but it would stop the wheel and if this happens but you can get the flip it will still slow to a stop. Not a self starter but would have to be spun for any reaction.
The reason I said start the build for you are going to have to make several test to lean out the friction, and of course if the wheel doesn't work you will have a basic wheel started for another project.
Alex the MT18 doesn't work as is, If you want to see the possible changes that I have posted to make it work. Go to Besslerwheel and look up my photos on album.
i will check now then eidt this post to say what i think...
im still working on a couple more bits of info i may have discoverd so im not getting on here much.
i think that the spring device you show above Alex wont work as it first apears, i think it will act like a shock absorber and eating the impact, wich leads me to my next question.
What if the springs themselvs are not a driving factor of the device, they may just be shock absorbers to cushion the possible falling weight's?.
im workin on trying to make this device as efficient as possible before i go any further with my build.
Chad.
Quote from: Chad on August 06, 2008, 05:11:14 PM
im still working on a couple more bits of info i may have discoverd so im not getting on here much.
i think that the spring device you show above Alex wont work as it first apears, i think it will act like a shock absorber and eating the impact, wich leads me to my next question.
What if the springs themselvs are not a driving factor of the device, they may just be shock absorbers to cushion the possible falling weight's?.
im workin on trying to make this device as efficient as possible before i go any further with my build.
Chad.
Possible good idea about the springs p.s i never edited my post as i could not find the thing you mentioned Alan...
There is something about the MT collection that you may or may not of noticed...
certain pieces of each wheel repeat themselves through out the entire collection but in a grouped manner, also each group has a wheel that at its end is the best result IMHO through i would let you know...
Hay Alex
I sent you an email with the picture called MT 18 corrected. Pay close attention on the center as well as what the letter I sent said.
Chad
If I can get an email from you I'll send you a copy. It is still in a semi private state for now.
Quote from: AB Hammer on August 06, 2008, 09:01:22 PM
Hay Alex
I sent you an email with the picture called MT 18 corrected. Pay close attention on the center as well as what the letter I sent said.
Chad
If I can get an email from you I'll send you a copy. It is still in a semi private state for now.
Alan, you seem a great person and so does Chad, its a rela shame we could not work together in reality...
Alex
I know distance makes next to impossible, but I think Chad may be closer to you. But I am not sure where he is from at this time. But I believe he is in the UK.
I've been thinking about the scissor jack for a while, and this picture shows one potential way that it could be used. I'm sure there is a more elegant way to implement this. As you can see from the drawing, when the arm is to the right the weight at the left will push down, pushing the scissor jack out to the edge of the wheel. When the arm gets to the bottom of the wheel, the weight near the axel will push down, pulling the weight at the perimeter of the wheel up. I would imagine the weight near the axel would either have to be a lot heavier than the perimeter wheel, or have a longer arm to give it leverage to pull the wheel up. Not sure this is doable, but I just thought I would throw that out there.
peace
mark
Hi all, yes im in the uk.
were abouts in the UK are you Alex, im in the midlands.
Hi mark, have you tried making a version of your drawing in a software program?.
Chad.
Quote from: Chad on August 08, 2008, 02:37:17 PM
Hi all, yes im in the uk.
were abouts in the UK are you Alex, im in the midlands.
Hi mark, have you tried making a version of your drawing in a software program?.
Chad.
I live in the midlands too, I will talk to you on email
Alex
markh
Good try, The problem is CF and the extra weight of the scissor, then to reset is will be almost up to the 10 o'clock mark to reset. Now! you will think A hah! just heavier counter weights. Then you are counter weighting the wheel and what you can get from the stretch is lost. This has been tried many time, and extra added ones like P-motion is suggesting doesn't help much either with the problems. But it was not a bad suggestion either.
Alex and Chad I am glad you two are close together. This should work out good.
Chad how old are you? I am 18
I do hope so Alan, io cant keep paying this much for electricty >:(
Email sent Alex.
Chad.
im a very young 31, trust me the years have been kind :D
Chad.
Well you guys are making me feel old I am 49.
49 your age
31 my age
18 Alex's age
49-31 =18
LOL, spooky :D
Chad.
wooow lol, I am a hybrid of Chad and Alan, the brains behind the two ;) hahaha
lol, well surely with your genes and knowledge the mystery of the wheel will be easy to solve :D ;)
Chad
lol now thats saying something :D
I have just decided to do something, its a little late for this but oh well im going to anyway...
I am making a wheel as we speak, one that I have planned so I can attach any mechanism to it to do tests, in other words, a wheel that can be used to attach levers where you need to and other things, I will show you when i'm done.
edit: infact, before i cut the wheel out, im going to look through the MT collection and see if i can design the wheel to be able attach a lot of the mechanism to it, if it is good, then I will post the planning for people, its better than remaking one wheel after the other IMO
edit: ok now with this very simple plan you can make the following MTs by just connecting the correct levers on the wheel...
9-16
17-27
30-31
37-40
60-61
66-69
75
114
125-129
134
and here is the plan for anyone who wants to build these wheels with alot more ease...
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi34.tinypic.com%2F2s66bgo.jpg&hash=931cf628fef83102357f5262e64a584c3f61365a)
the black dots are simply just holes where the levers, springs etc attach by a nail or any other way...
edit: and here are a few examples of using the MT wheel plan
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.tinypic.com%2F2enaujo.jpg&hash=a2958e0a16be12905cbee7f0427d928c0e8343fd)
Hay Alex
I rote on your new string about building the test wheel. I also sent you a video. I am suffering from an MSG allergy so I think I will go to bed now, it makes me feel like I got some bad alcohol.
Again here, Good Work!