So I was daydreaming about how electrons move through a wire and produce electricity. I pictured, in my mind, a glass container filled with water and separated into two compartments with a glass wall between them. The glass wall had a opening that allowed the water to flow between chambers, but this flow could be stopped when the opening was closed.
Plain salt (NaCl) is dissolved in the water and with the opening allowing water to flow between the chamber, then powerful neo-magnets are placed at each end so that one side was (+) at one end, and the other was (-) at the other end so that Na+ and Cl- ions would be attracted to separate sides of the container by the powerful magnets. Once this was allowed to continue for a period of time the opening would be closed and the magnets removed. You thus have excess Na ions on one side and Cl ions on the other.
Question? Would a wire placed and connecting the chambers with a load between them now allow electricity to flow freely until the ions were balanced?
I am throwing this out because I do not have Neo-Magnets and cannot test this hypothesis right now. Do you think one of you experimenters out there with powerful magnets could give this a try for me?
This is just a crazy idea that popped out of my head.
Hello ResinRat2!
I think that the ions would not be attracted to the magnets in the way you think, the liquid would be either attracted or repelled as a whole according to the characteristic magnetism of the solution, and the strenght of the reaction to it (paramagnetism or diamagnetism). What you could induce with the magnets, is a relative differential of density on the liquid (which could also eventually be a way of obtaining energy, as I will explain later). Two known salt solutions that show a measurable and usefull paramagnetism are permanganate and copper sulfate (pemanganate is the stronger). An even more paramagnetic fluid would be a dilute ferromagnetic fluid.
Incidentally I have studied a bit about paramagnetic solutions based on a paper that I read in the Filtration and Separation journal. The paper dealt with the separation of plastics by means of magnetically induced density difference over a ferromagnetic fluid. The separation is based on the principle that if you submit a pool of paramagnetic fluid to a magnetic field (permanent or eletromagnet), it will creat a gradient of densities within the fluid, so if you toss a sort of different plastics into the pool, each material will "float" at a different level so you can separate a complex mix of plastic chips, for recycling.
From that paper I figured out that if you could create a gradient of densities in the fluid with a strong magnet, and if you could partially guide the influence of the magnetic field (with some kind of mistakenly named "magnetic shield") within the fluid, you could perhaps create a continuous "self replenishing" flow (hence kinetic energy) that could be harnessed through a turbine to produce usable power.
As often, having an idea, puting it on paper and find that is not that easy to test because you need to buy a lot of stuff that is not easy to find in your small city, and costs bucks that you don't have available, is all what you can do. I think I tossed the idea in this forum, but no one paid attention. Perhaps is just a waste of time, we'll know some day.
Keep on thinking nice ideas, that's the spirit. Cheers!
(//)
your crazy idea reminds me of an experience from a crazy idea I had a couple of months ago.
I had just mixed up some rochelle salt which was in a syrup and I was waiting for it to crystalize. It sat out in the garage overnight, probably a temp of 50F or so. It was still syrup the next morning, and out of curiosity I taped two neo magnets on the outside of the glass jar containing the syrup, on opposite sides and aligned with the earth mag field, with the south poles of each magnet oriented to the north, the magnet on the north side of the jar was attached slightly lower than the one of the south side. About ten minutes later, I noticed the syrup had totally crystallized, it was a totally solid mass. I had to chip the salt out with a steak knife. The jar was so hot I couldn't hold it in my hands. There was nothing used but magnets. I don't know if this would work with other salts, I haven't explored it further.
Hey Dave I haven't tried that one yet.
I have a PVC canister used to house tie wraps thin wall.
30cm tall and 11cm dia and has a neat red screw on lid.
A 20cm od clear plastic tube I could cut down to three tubes for the internal tubes and some other clear abs for mounting.
And have a bunch of 1/2in neos of varying dimensions including some 1/2 by 1/4 diametric ring mags.
But this will require some ADULT supervision from you folks but should be doable/easy using Chileans rendering.
Keep me close to Home Depot on the chemicals when you two sort out a starting mixture ie product names, I haven't much messed with chemicals since I took the chunk of white phosprous literaly out of the bottle and droped it on the Science Teachers desk, You can imagine how that turned out :)
Figure out something Inert I can put in the mix to see if its circulating.
Be Well
Tinker
here's how to make Rochelle salt in your kitchen ....
http://www.seawhy.com/xlroch.html (http://www.seawhy.com/xlroch.html)
tak
Quote from: Tinker on September 18, 2008, 11:01:39 PM
Hey Dave I haven't tried that one yet.
I have a PVC canister used to house tie wraps thin wall.
30cm tall and 11cm dia and has a neat red screw on lid.
A 20cm od clear plastic tube I could cut down to three tubes for the internal tubes and some other clear abs for mounting.
And have a bunch of 1/2in neos of varying dimensions including some 1/2 by 1/4 diametric ring mags.
But this will require some ADULT supervision from you folks but should be doable/easy using Chileans rendering.
Keep me close to Home Depot on the chemicals when you two sort out a starting mixture ie product names, I haven't much messed with chemicals since I took the chunk of white phosprous literaly out of the bottle and droped it on the Science Teachers desk, You can imagine how that turned out :)
Figure out something Inert I can put in the mix to see if its circulating.
Be Well
Tinker
Hello Tinker, the solution that has more paramagnetic properties is 400 grams per liter of manganese chloride.
Look at the attached image.
Regards.
You might be onto something... I ran a small-scale electrolysis experiment with H2O & NaCl (inside a tic-tac box) which worked normally until I placed the container between 2 powerful 1"x1"x0.5" N50 NdFeB magnets and it DID rip apart the salt because the water started turning green (Clorine gas liberated @ anode) and I had to disconnect the battery (Chlorine gas is not the healthiest substance)
you won't know until you try.
Hi ChileanOne,
This sounds familiar to me, I think I read about using this technique to separate plastics. I am not sure if it is being used right now or not. I guess in your idea you would harness the liquid "flow". I still can't picture how you would keep that "flow" constantly going. I would think the layers would reach their equilibrium points due to density and just stop. Maybe that is why no one really paid attention. We really don't understand it. Unless the magnets are rotated, then the flow could be constantly induced?
@hypersonic,
Yes, the chlorine gas would be a by-product of a electron transfer for electron flow. See, this is what I was thinking of. As simple as it sounds, this may have merit.
2Cl- ----> Cl2(g) + 2e-
Once the chlorine gas is gone I think the system would switch to OH- ions, then to attacking the water itself. This would mean the liberation of hydrogen as gas too.
2NaCl(aq) + 2H2 O --> 2Na+OH-(aq) + H2(g) + Cl2(g)
Maybe this has potential to look into. Powerful Neo-magnets that don't use electrical power may work for this; but the containers and the ions need to be separated so the electron can flow from high to low potential. I don't know it the magnets would be strong enough to encourage the system to run this way. It seems too simple to me.
@Tinker,
Do magnets work through PVC? The magnets would need to be on the outside of the container. That's why I suggested glass as the container substance.
@mdmiller,
I wonder if the magnets just gave the salt the energy to align itself into a crystalline structure. The magnets would encourage the atoms to align themself in the same electrical orientation so it would be easier for the crystal structure to form. Very interesting; but if the ions are in separate containers and connected by a wire, would that induce electron flow. This is what I was thinking.
Thanks for all your ideas everyone. Like I said, I am just throwing this out there because I don't have a way to test this without magnets.
;D Finally!!
Something that sounds easy to replicate/experiment with, fairly safe, and doesn't involve aliens or their technology. ::)
Now, time to research what is going on with the instant crystallization from neo magnets.
Great idea guys, BTW.
Quote from: ResinRat2 on September 19, 2008, 06:42:57 AM
Hi ChileanOne,
This sounds familiar to me, I think I read about using this technique to separate plastics. I am not sure if it is being used right now or not. I guess in your idea you would harness the liquid "flow". I still can't picture how you would keep that "flow" constantly going. I would think the layers would reach their equilibrium points due to density and just stop. Maybe that is why no one really paid attention. We really don't understand it. Unless the magnets are rotated, then the flow could be constantly induced?
Hello ResinRat2. Well, I have been studying the theroy of the idea of generating a "magnetic convection", and guess what, it is possible, and there are a lot of Japanese papers estudying it as a way to increase velocity of mass transfer reactions. As you know, convection is the term that depicts the event when a heterogeneous difference of densities within a fluid (be it gaseous or liquid) generates a movement within the fluid because of the relative difference of the effect of gravity on each portion of fluid because of their densities, and as long as the source of density gradient inducing force remains constant, the movement keeps being observed. It is the same principle that generates the movement within a boiling fluid.
Magnetic convection
is observed in paramagnetic salt solutions, and thus, the idea of directing that convection to generate a usefull flow is not that far fetched, but it requires a lot of research to find a proper way.
ALso, Take a look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS3mT9eCDVw&feature=related
If it canbe done with electromagnetism, can it be done with permanent magnetism? There is the basis for my idea, that now you see, it's not so woo woo.
Dave
Yes they do, I was using them in Stiffers wet dialectic setup one inside and one outside in attraction. They pulled just fine I just didn't get enough amps to make it worth the time.
Be well
Tinker
Quote from: Tinker on September 19, 2008, 02:48:19 PM
Yes they do, I was using them in Stiffers wet dialectic setup one inside and one outside in attraction. They pulled just fine I just didn't get enough amps to make it worth the time.
Tinker
Great!! I didn't know if they worked through PVC or not. Excellent!!!
Found this
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4187170.html
Be Well
Quote from: mdmiller on September 18, 2008, 10:22:25 PMThe jar was so hot I couldn't hold it in my hands. There was nothing used but magnets. I don't know if this would work with other salts, I haven't explored it further.
Could you replicate and record this? It seems like a major discovery even at it bases it can at least heat water in a heating installation.
amything can be cristallized, almost anything, and then it produces heat, simple and universal
heat is release while cristallizing, usually a chemical reaction
in electrinium.pdf you can get permanent heat or electricity from a special cristallization while putting a lot of volts with a few current in the way to cath energy from the eather
doing crystallization with magnets look like electrinium ( the permanent battery is create by doing crystallisation with thousands of volts ! )
in the Hutchinson topic they work with Rochelle salt...in their compound
any crystallized things may or not transform some Super Light in electricity or heat
i hope this will help to image further
Hey Dave
I tried your salt thing using the salt and the neo's
It was a no go the Salt and clear water preformed the same.
If you want more info give me a call and I will give you the specifics.
Be well
Tinker
Chilian
I see some merit from what you presented. atleast it is interisting.
I have looked through the southern U.S. and found no source for manganese chloride I am currently working on an internet source.
More when I get it.
Be Well
Tinker
Quote from: ResinRat2 on September 18, 2008, 04:42:00 PM
Plain salt (NaCl) is dissolved in the water and with the opening allowing water to flow between the chamber, then powerful neo-magnets are placed at each end so that one side was (+) at one end, and the other was (-) at the other end so that Na+ and Cl- ions would be attracted to separate sides of the container by the powerful magnets. Once this was allowed to continue for a period of time the opening would be closed and the magnets removed.
You created the electric generator, which takes energy from moving magnets to the chamber and from the chamber. :-)
The usual gereators work the same way, but they have the wires instead the salt solution.
The problem of this generator is related to the low speed of separation of ions.
@ mdmiller
Sodium acetate will crystalize and release heat like you describe. It is found in reusable "hand warming" packs for outdoor type people. You boil the pack to turn the crystal into a supercritical liquid. The pack stays liquid when you cool it down. Whenever you need heat, you just "snap" the metal disk inside the pouch triggering re-crystalization and the release of heat for a short time. I wouldnt call it OU, but it is a neat effect... and great for warming hands on the chairlift.
Quote from: Tinker on October 06, 2008, 02:01:38 AM
Hey Dave
I tried your salt thing using the salt and the neo's
It was a no go the Salt and clear water preformed the same.
If you want more info give me a call and I will give you the specifics.
Be well
Tinker
Thanks for trying it out Tinker. I wasn't sure if it would work or not. Oh well, back to the grind.
if you start with it empty and use a tube with a y in it the water will automatically seperate into + and -...the magnets could be used at the y thereby reducing the need for the magents to be so large...do a search on google for something like "static discharge water drop ions "
Recall that a flow of electrons moving through a wire that is placed in a magnetic field will cause the wire to move in one direction or the other depending on the flow of electrons.Recall the lentz effect?That is the basis for electric motors?You can cause the liquid electrolyte solution to stir itself with properly placed magnets when a current is flowing through it.You place the magnets at 90 degree angles to the flow of electrons.It would create different density zones that could be used to make something I guess.Again here the key words is "flow of electrons".I intend to use this effect when I make HHO generators as it knocks the bubbles off of the electrodes more quickly.I will be making an electric motor in a jar using a liquid.I saw this in a video clip on u-tube one time.Triffid
Magnets have another purpose in the breaking down of water.One(O or H^2) gas is attracted to a magnetic field and the other is repelled by the magnetic field.Hence the magnet already pulls apart the water molecule by itself(or stretches it).I have not seen a magnet strong enough to rip water apart on its own.But it will assist an electric current in doing so.Resulting in a lower voltage with magnets than without magnets.I don't have exact numbers and I don't recall which gas is attracted or repelled.But I know the trends.Triffid
I just found this article today:
http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/blog2/index.php/hydrogen-production/hydrogen-from-salt-water-and-magnets-a-possibility
which led me to the actual experiment:
http://www.physorg.com/news156596965.html
This relates to what you wrote Triffid.
I wonder how this could be used to generate a constant current in a single container? Maybe like you suggested earlier ChileanOne. Time for some brainstorming. Maybe even using the techniques of the patent that you linked to, Tinker, that uses magnetic salts like Ferrous Chloride or Manganese Chloride to get a current going.
Notice also that in the experiment: hydrogen and oxygen came off one electrode, and the chlorine gas came off the other. What if KOH or NaOH was used instead. Then would hydrogen and oxygen be coming off of both electrodes? That is an interesting thing to find out.
I have to say that that is an interesting idea!
If you had long pipes submerged in the ocean, as water flowed upward toward the surface, energy would be produced as well as gasses.
The gasses would continue to expand and draw more water into the pipes to create a perpetual cycle that would be totally free once started!
I wonder if it may be possible to build a land based self generating extractor using a 4" diameter well?
Gee! that would simplify some things!
What?
A perpetual motion apparatus?
That's impossible lumen. (Every educated Wise-Guy says so!!) So just give it up dude, and forget it!!
Actually, I think your idea is very clever. I think the rising bubbles would most likely keep a current going upward. Self-sustaining and perpetual. I didn't read if the article mentioned what speed the current needs to be; as you wrote previously, it would probably have to be artificially started, but once it got going, who knows.
Very nice idea.
I like your idea Lumen. Here's a video by Walter Lewin at MIT's OCW making a battery out of cans and water. The battery he creates has a huge potential difference - 10 to 20 kV! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY1eyLEo8_A
Possibly combining your method with what is happening in the video we can get a nice amount of usable energy out of a self-sustaining system such as you described.
GB
Below is an illustration combining Lumen's method with the water battery in the video of my previous post. Maybe the 10 - 20 kV spark from the water battery could help the magnets with the HHO Gas production?
I,m not sure the bucket generator would work out so well in the self operating percolator gas generator, but it is another cool device!
It looks to be building a static charge from one side draining faster maybe?
Then because like charges repel, each bucket uses it's charge to prevent the other bucket from accumulating it's polarity. So the potential difference increases!
Hmmm... is that correct?
Quote from: lumen on November 16, 2009, 04:57:22 PM
I,m not sure the bucket generator would work out so well in the self operating percolator gas generator, but it is another cool device!
It looks to be building a static charge from one side draining faster maybe?
Then because like charges repel, each bucket uses it's charge to prevent the other bucket from accumulating it's polarity. So the potential difference increases!
Hmmm... is that correct?
I'm not sure how the bucket generator works. I did notice the water draining faster on one side as you mentioned. This probably has a major role in creating the potential difference. Is the water being ionized? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water Pay careful attention to the contents of this wiki article on the "Mechnasism".
Wikipedia says, "Electrolysis of pure water requires excess energy in the form of overpotential to overcome various activation barriers. Without the excess energy the electrolysis of pure water occurs very slowly if at all. This is in part due to the
limited self-ionization of water." If we can ionize the water, then the rate of HHO production from the magnets should increase.
Instead of using the spark from the static charge that builds up, maybe the magnets could generate the HHO gas quicker due to the water holding a charge or being ionized.
When the HHO gas is released from the system, water will need to be added to the system. Why not have the water trickle from above to create a charge in the water due to it being ionized that may help the magnets in the HHO production?
It may help and it may not help.......just trying to improve on an already brilliant idea.
GB
I did some checking and found there is little additional work required to electrolyze water under pressure.
The minimum voltage required is about 1.2v to start the process, so water would need to move fast enough to generate this voltage or higher.
I think I will do some testing on this to see if this could be possible and at what point would it become perpetual if possible at all.
Quote from: lumen on November 17, 2009, 12:31:58 PM
I did some checking and found there is little additional work required to electrolyze water under pressure.
The minimum voltage required is about 1.2v to start the process, so water would need to move fast enough to generate this voltage or higher.
I think I will do some testing on this to see if this could be possible and at what point would it become perpetual if possible at all.
If the water is ionized, then it would require less than 1.2v, so the water could move at a slower rate in order to generate this minimum voltage.
I think this falls under the same class as the Kelvin Generator but Magnets are added, I have played with the Kelvin Generator and I know it works, you can make better sparks if you use salt water in the device.
at one point I Incorporated the idea of using Capillary action to draw the Salt Water back to the top using Mass Capillary bundles and then by making a liquid piston and some low boiling point medium to pressurize the Liquid piston I could in theory keep the Capillary action flowing with a little ambient thermal energy.
Jerry
here is a little MIT on the Kelvin Generator. old footage but still good. there is a newer MIT demo but I didn't post it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=algECMeQFrE
Thanks Jerry for the info, I need to study this more. So the water is ionized (charged). Since this appears to be the case, the ionized water can be broken into HHO gas more efficiently. According to wiki, water undergoes electrolysis randomly due to water self-ionizing. Is this correct?
Here is a similar concept, except that in this case, electrolysis is used directly to separate the water where in my concept the path of the water over the magnets far below would separate the water in a spontaneous fashion without the need for electric current.
At some depth it is surmised that the expanding gas would provide all the required energy to operate the process.
Good idea but the system is too bulky, thee best is the Highest energy density with the least amount of space to run it.
save environmental space. if I can supply energy to the entire world within 1 inch square of area, I would do it.
build your system of energy production as if you were building for your spaceship deep into outerspace because it needed a overhaul and the crew is depending on you to save their lives.
i stumbled onto this post about 2 days ago..
and ever since then ive been making crystals from
potassium sodium tartrate......
rushed right out to the store that night and bought a bunch of baking soda and cream of tartar.
the method of preparing the salt, as prescribed in the link, leaves the water with some un-reacted sodium carbonate, which of course burns into a brown oxidation of sorts.. polluting the water.
it wont crystalize, so the crystals you remove from the water will be "pure". you can dissolve these again, into pure water.
heat, filter, and recrystalize. this will eliminate almost all of the impurities from the salt.
when i pulled out the magnets, i stumbled onto something interesting.
the crystals themselves dont seem to be affected by the magnetic field, at least not in any visible way...
but while growing them, there is an interaction between salt and magnet.
crystals grown without magnets, grow in random directions. either individually or in bunches.
but, with a ceramic ring magnet (magnetron) sitting with a pole up underneath the jar.....
makes all the crystals grow in the same direction. regardless of where they are in the jar, how close they are to each other, ect.
i havent tried changing poles, but i would presume they would just grow the other way, meaning their reference "nagative" pole would face the opposite direction.
it doesnt seem to affect the time duration of the crystalization.
and the heat produced from the process isnt any greater with or without magnets, in various orientations. the heat produced is proportional by volume, and is most noticible during the time between when the crystal-water mixture is a creamy slush,
and when it completely dries out. it may relate in some way to the crystal structure when it "hardens". i havent gotten anything "too hot to handle", but a 4 cup container's worth of mixture can register almost a 30-degree increase on the thermometer during that drying-out time. once the crystal hardens it cools completely and stays a few degrees below room temperature.
anyhow, i though i would share that bit about them lining up in the horizontal plane in the presence of a verticle-oriented field.
makes it easy to pull out some really nice crystals.
heres 2 of the crystals i made today
Quote from: gravityblock on November 17, 2009, 06:36:27 PM
So the water is ionized (charged). Since this appears to be the case, the ionized water can be broken into HHO gas more efficiently. According to wiki, water undergoes electrolysis randomly due to water self-ionizing. Is this correct?
I guess the answer to this question is not important, along with everything else.
I'm sorry, but just throwing some magnets in water or a solution isn't going to cut it. We have to attack this on all fronts and leave no stone unturned and squeeze every ounce of energy out of a system as we can with every method that is available and known to us before we are successful.
GB
There was this Japanese scientist who was playing with magnets when freezing food. Ever taken a strawberry and freeze it, then thaw it out months later and it isn't the same. It is all deformed and mushy. Well this guy put magnets in the freezer so that he would align the water molecules within the food. Apparently you couldn't tell the difference between he pre-frozen strawberry and a fresh one.
<deleted>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Charged-particle-drifts.svg
This is an interesting page of information. Notice that the movement of charged ions in a uniform magnetic field are just circular in motion, with no drift. However, two transverse magnetic fields cause ions to drift. The bottom illustration shows the movement of charged ions in the presence of two transverse magnetic fields. They are shown drifting apart!!!!
So my original thought experiment may have some merit as well. Only the magnets would not be at each end of the container, but on sides that are 90° angles to each other. Like at the bottom and on any side. This should cause a chemical seperation of the negative and positive ions.
Just thought I would share this information with anyone interested.
@smoky2
Hmmm... so if you put a spinning ring magnet under the container while the crystals form, you would get magnetically aligned and charge aligned crystals?
They would produce power in the presence of a magnetic field.... ?
This is an inquiry from anyone who has experience working with very powerful magnets.
I purchased two supermagnets from United Nuclear:
https://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=70_71
I purchased magnets #21 (2" X 1"). Two of them.
That day I noticed I had a very terrible headache after handling them. I duct-taped one of them them onto an aquarium at the bottom and another on one side. The idea is to give a transverse magnetic field so the ions in a salt water solution would drift apart.
The headache went away overnight, but today, right after I handled them again, the terrible headache returned. This concerns me. Does anyone know of this type of symptom from handling powerful magnets?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
I' never had any personal experience with magnets and headaches, but your post led me to look it up, here's some of the stuff i found:
This guy says 'no, they don't cause headaches':
http://snippets.com/can-magnets-cause-a-headache.htm
Here they're used to treat depression:
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/05/magnet_therapy
Says the brain can't feel pain:
http://www.healthcentral.com/chronic-pain/h/can-tmj-cause-dizziness.html