Has anyone tried aluminum electrodes? It is my understanding that these do not corrode in water, and are a LOT cheaper...
Also saw a guy on youtube using 316 SS foil. He was having great success using Dry Cell, 2.5 liter per minute at 12A 12V.
Just heard about a coating process called Carbon Raptor Coating. It's for automotive applications, applies a 2-4 micron thick layer to any metal, can even be used inside a cylinder so I assume it's good for electrolysers.
I built a working PWM using the LM324 FINALLY. 100% fully adjustable duty cycle, variable frequency too. ONE chip, ONE board, NO decade switching, 8 resistors and one capacitor, total for under $10.
Will post details soon on my site
There is pretty good explanation.
Have you seen stainless steel tubing corrosion ??? naa...
Aluminum is pretty good at "corrosion" I do not really know about all types of it but ... it does corrode.
Just do as i did. Take a aluminum spoon and use t as electrolyte. Soon you will notice that water is not clean.
the problem with aluminum is the aluminum oxide coating on all aluminum exposed to air or water. during the electrolysis process, the aluminum oxide has a tendency to dissociate from the aluminum plate, thus resulting in short life plates. this also happens with stainless steel, which is why such things as foil and thin coatings would not be ideal. in stainless steel, the plate corrodes, but at a slow rate. ideally, a electrolysis device should be made form a material that corrodes, but this means that the electrodes must be replaced, so HHO devices use less corrosive materials, a plate coated in platinum or gold would be best for HHO developers. i have also heard that a compound that contains aluminum is being looked at for generating hydrogen on demand, i think it also contains gallium.
Al is very good carthod ( - ) for test, bubble is very fine and you will got more bubble at the same current, but as you know it have more resistances, same plate area you will add more electrolyte to get the same current as SS plate,
Al can work very long if you don't let's them touch bubble from +(oxygen) that normally use SS.
from pic
tube is -Al
smaller rod is -SS
with the same +SS (stainless Tea pot ;) )
Quote from: Jokker on October 14, 2008, 12:29:41 PM
There is pretty good explanation.
Have you seen stainless steel tubing corrosion ??? naa...
Aluminum is pretty good at "corrosion" I do not really know about all types of it but ... it does corrode.
Just do as i did. Take a aluminum spoon and use t as electrolyte. Soon you will notice that water is not clean.
Not all grades are corrosive there are many marine Vessels and Fishing Boats that are used in Saltwater and show very little corrosion
we used a lot of 6061T6 on our Submersibles and 316L SSl and this combination did not even produce an electrolysis to the point of being destructive. Then there is a Alcan alclad Aluminum I believe it was 2024 it was impervious to corrosion as long as you did not scratch its coating.
I had a higher Gas output using one Alu and one SS rod than just all SS.
If you use any Chemicals you make a good halfwave rectifier that way. Perhaps you can then eliminate the HV Rectifier used by SM?
professor
Quote from: professor on October 20, 2008, 05:23:29 PM
blah blah blah deleted
professor
"professor" - please substantiate the claims you made in your post on the Rife thread.
Lie #1 - Please post a credible source for your claim the RCA Victor company built Rife machines.
Lie #2 Dr. Milbank Johnson compiled Rife's work and was reported to be preparing an announcement on the "Cure for Cancer." He fell suddenly ill and died shortly after being admitted to a hospital in 1944. Federal inspectors in the late 1950's - early 1960's concluded that Dr. Johnson was most probably poisoned.
Fact: Dr. Milbank Johnson died of a heart attack in 1944 at the age of 72, years after he had finished his involvement with Rife. There were no 'federal inspectors' or conspiracy. You can read Johnsons correspondence at http://rife.org/milbankjohnson/milbankjohnson.html - Johnson hadn't had anything to do with Rife for years before he died.
Hey wizard, keep that kinda crap somewhere else, you make me paranoid man...
So how about this coating? I just talked to a guy who sells a coating, 2-4 microns thick, 10^9th ohms, he can't do tubes very well because it's hard to reach the inside but he said a 3" tube with 1"ID would probably be ok.
Will not dissolve under voltage. Can't we substitute this for the oxide layer? I personally do not have a month to spend flicking a switch and changing water in a conditioning cell. And I would probably screw it up anyway.
About this resonance... it seems to me that the longer our coils, the easier it will be to attain resonance... imagine a pendulum hanging from the ceiling... the longer the rope, the easier to keep it going. However for all practical purposes we should probably be aiming to ring the tubes until a Phase Lock Loop utilizing a pickup coil can sustain resonance for us. ???
Quote from: Farlander on October 20, 2008, 08:20:18 PM
Hey wizard, keep that kinda crap somewhere else, you make me paranoid man...
So how about this coating? I just talked to a guy who sells a coating, 2-4 microns thick, 10^9th ohms, he can't do tubes very well because it's hard to reach the inside but he said a 3" tube with 1"ID would probably be ok.
Will not dissolve under voltage. Can't we substitute this for the oxide layer? I personally do not have a month to spend flicking a switch and changing water in a conditioning cell. And I would probably screw it up anyway.
About this resonance... it seems to me that the longer our coils, the easier it will be to attain resonance... imagine a pendulum hanging from the ceiling... the longer the rope, the easier to keep it going. However for all practical purposes we should probably be aiming to ring the tubes until a Phase Lock Loop utilizing a pickup coil can sustain resonance for us. ???
Hi Farlander
That guy is a Jerk he behaves like that on every thread, there is only negativity.
Poor neglected Child.
People have to learn to ignore,him I have.
But what goes around will come around.
professor
Quote from: Farlander on October 20, 2008, 08:20:18 PM
Hey wizard, keep that kinda crap somewhere else, you make me paranoid man...
So how about this coating? I just talked to a guy who sells a coating, 2-4 microns thick, 10^9th ohms, he can't do tubes very well because it's hard to reach the inside but he said a 3" tube with 1"ID would probably be ok.
Will not dissolve under voltage. Can't we substitute this for the oxide layer? I personally do not have a month to spend flicking a switch and changing water in a conditioning cell. And I would probably screw it up anyway.
About this resonance... it seems to me that the longer our coils, the easier it will be to attain resonance... imagine a pendulum hanging from the ceiling... the longer the rope, the easier to keep it going. However for all practical purposes we should probably be aiming to ring the tubes until a Phase Lock Loop utilizing a pickup coil can sustain resonance for us. ???
As to the Coating it comes that way from the Manufacturer the 2024 is very strong but brittle or lets say not very flexible you can not bend it which would be O.K. for our purposes. However if you shear it you will expose the ends which are then uncoated and must be insulated with whatever.
I had purchased some Waterglas Na2SiO3 for the purpose of coating the Plates but have not used it yet.
Alclad is a trademark of Alcoa used as a generic term to describe corrosion resistant Aluminium sheet formed from high-purity aluminium surface layers metallurgically bonded to high strength Aluminium Alloy core material. These sheets commonly used by the aircraft industry[1].
Described in NACA-TN-259, of August 1927, as "a new corrosion resistant aluminum product which is markedly superior to the present strong alloys. Its use should result in greatly increased life of a structural part. Alclad is a heat-treated aluminum, copper, manganese, magnesium alloy that has the corrosion resistance of pure metal at the surface and the strength of the strong alloy underneath. Of particular importance is the thorough character of the union between the alloy and the pure aluminum. Preliminary results of salt spray tests (24 weeks of exposure) show changes in tensile strength and elongation of Alclad 17ST, when any occurred, to be so small as to be well within the limits of experimental error."
professor
Hi ,
I have been playing with waterglass and the Hutchison crystal battery this year.
In all cases the Alu dissolves when it touches sodium silicate. (It makes H2 bubbles when it does this.) . It may take 30 minutes, but the terminals all pull away.
So, try it on a piece of scrap Alu just to prove it to yourself first. Don't waste a good build or even a piece of aluminum.
I have been thinking about HHO generation all day. Most threads agree not to use brute force, but to pulse the dc. I've been thinking it might work to switch anode and cathode at the same time you pulse the cell. Then the corrosion which is really a matter of electroplating one terminal to the other, will stop, because you are switching endlessly.
I suppose it all depends on how quickly the electroplating eats away at the one terminal... Maybe once a week is frequent enough to stop eating through the terminal.
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on October 21, 2008, 11:13:31 PM
Hi ,
I have been playing with waterglass and the Hutchison crystal battery this year.
In all cases the Alu dissolves when it touches sodium silicate. (It makes H2 bubbles when it does this.) . It may take 30 minutes, but the terminals all pull away.
So, try it on a piece of scrap Alu just to prove it to yourself first. Don't waste a good build or even a piece of aluminum.
I have been thinking about HHO generation all day. Most threads agree not to use brute force, but to pulse the dc. I've been thinking it might work to switch anode and cathode at the same time you pulse the cell. Then the corrosion which is really a matter of electroplating one terminal to the other, will stop, because you are switching endlessly.
I suppose it all depends on how quickly the electroplating eats away at the one terminal... Maybe once a week is frequent enough to stop eating through the terminal.
jeanna
Hi Jeanna
If I understand you right then we must have had the same thoughts on polarity reversal. You can do it cheaply with a Relay but you can only switch it as fast as the mechanical spring allows you.I had designed a Solid State Circuit on the Electronic Workbench a Design and Simulation Program for a different usage but it would allow to switch polarity ofl a DC voltage .
Beck uses that circuit for medical purposes only very low Power and switching and frequency
thanks for the advise on waterglas i did not know that it would react with alu........ interesting!
http://www.museum.wa.gov.au/collections/maritime/march/fallenangels/degrigny/fockewulf.html
During similar treatments performed on a Pratt & Whitney engine at the AWM, we found that sodium metasilicate Na2SiO3 was suitable because of its corrosion-inhibiting properties on aluminum alloys [10]; however, it was determined that, beyond a concentration of 0.08 M, significant corrosion occurred, with the formation of fibrous white aluminum silicate compounds. We therefore repeated these studies, establishing, in accordance with ANSI (American National Standards Institute) standard G-172, mass loss curves for aluminum-copper alloys (Figure 1) and aluminum-manganese or aluminum-magnesium-silicon alloys (materials commonly found in aeronautical wrecks) that are non-corroded and immersed in metasilicate solutions at various concentrations.
We found that the usable range of inhibitor concentrations (no evident corrosion) is broader for alloys without copper than for aluminum-copper alloys.
Originally I was wanting to use it on a couple of stainless rods to see at what voltage they would start conducting.
professor
about conductivity of it,
I ever try to make more surfaces area as pic, i use Al - ,SS rod +
all tube tuch each other and all, check with Ohm meter it show 0.0 Ohm.
but when i put one copper wire on one tube and hope current will go around,
result is not... bubble apply on only one tube that have wire on .......... ???
until now i still not do any thind with it, ... :P
but gas is alot more than SS- for sure... ;D
Quote from: professor on October 22, 2008, 12:06:37 AM
Hi Jeanna
If I understand you right then we must have had the same thoughts on polarity reversal. You can do it cheaply with a Relay but you can only switch it as fast as the mechanical spring allows you.......
Originally I was wanting to use it on a couple of stainless rods to see at what voltage they would start conducting.
professor
Hi professor,
I made a little proofofconcept for myself with a depleted 9 volt battery and 2 stainless washers held onto the batt with stainless wire. I added a tiny pinch of NaOH to the waterr and did the whole thing in an 8oz jelly jar.
The bubbles were prodigious while the battery remained above 6.5 volts.
But the part I think is important is that it takes a little while for the bubbles to form.
To me this means that a polarity shift would need to be fairly slow. Maybe the ideal switch would be an hour. (could be 24 hours) So, I would say that it wouldn't matter if you could not switch it very fast. And besides, you would fatigue the metal of the spring with too many switches. So, slow switching IMHO is better anyway.
It would still not corrode through the copper within an hour, and by reversing the polarity, what was lost from one terminal would be replated in the next hour .
On your other point, if the copper gets re-plated every switch, using specialized alloys could be just more expensive and troublesome, but not more productive.
However, if you have access to these alloys, please give them a try with a relay and report your results.
Here is my pep talk on reporting everything:
Good or bad, the results are what we need. I have learned a lot by my "failures" and you could save someone else a lot of trouble and expense if it doesn't work and you share those results. So there is never really a failure with something that doesn't work.
Enjoy,
jeanna
@Professor
Reference to:
Lie #2 : Dr. Milbank Johnson compiled Rife's work and was reported to be preparing an announcement on the "Cure for Cancer." He fell suddenly ill and died shortly after being admitted to a hospital in 1944. Federal inspectors in the late 1950's - early 1960's concluded that Dr. Johnson was most "probably" poisoned.
Answers:
http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=followin+emails+contains+spyware&spell=1
http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Dr+Milbank+Johnson+murdered+poisoned&spell=1
nothing is impossibel
to cover any true - is als possibel.
Tesla murdered 1943
you can als ask google,com
Nothing is impossibel,
if great money stand behind
----
The GOOGLE answers are an Part of good askings.
GP
Quote from: Farlander on October 14, 2008, 10:51:47 AM
Has anyone tried aluminum electrodes? It is my understanding that these do not corrode in water, and are a LOT cheaper...
Also saw a guy on youtube using 316 SS foil. He was having great success using Dry Cell, 2.5 liter per minute at 12A 12V.
Just heard about a coating process called Carbon Raptor Coating. It's for automotive applications, applies a 2-4 micron thick layer to any metal, can even be used inside a cylinder so I assume it's good for electrolysers.
I built a working PWM using the LM324 FINALLY. 100% fully adjustable duty cycle, variable frequency too. ONE chip, ONE board, NO decade switching, 8 resistors and one capacitor, total for under $10.
Will post details soon on my site
Hi Farlander,
I would like to see your circuit.. sounds good!
Thanks,
Jason
Here's the circuit I used with the LM324. Using all 4 op amps, you can make a really clean square wave up to abuot 7-8khz. Using just one op amp, you can make a crappy sawtooth wave up to about 40khz, and if you had a driver you could switch a mosfet.
(https://overunityarchives.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cpemma.co.uk%2Fgraphics%2Ferg_pwm_sch.gif&hash=160bd76ada619e8cd9e4e1e5a78dac936133a326)
This chip is strictly PWM, but it does do 0-100% duty cycle, although the max frequency is low, 7khz
I'm going to build the 555 timer and tinker with the components. I think with a 5+megohm resistor you could really expand the range of the 555. I was thinking of putting 5megohm pots in where every pot is in the Lawton circuit, and power it with 24V not 12V, would that work?
Quote from: pese on October 23, 2008, 02:42:44 PM
@Professor
Reference to:
Lie #2 : Dr. Milbank Johnson compiled Rife's work and was reported to be preparing an announcement on the "Cure for Cancer." He fell suddenly ill and died shortly after being admitted to a hospital in 1944. Federal inspectors in the late 1950's - early 1960's concluded that Dr. Johnson was most "probably" poisoned.
Answers:
http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=followin+emails+contains+spyware&spell=1
http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Dr+Milbank+Johnson+murdered+poisoned&spell=1
nothing is impossibel
to cover any true - is als possibel.
Tesla murdered 1943
you can als ask google,com
Nothing is impossibel,
if great money stand behind
----
The GOOGLE answers are an Part of good askings.
GP
Hi Pese
Nice to be able to say hello
I had been out of town flew to Vancouver to pick up a car ansd once more a week later to pick up a 4x4 since I sold my Rav4.
Its only an hour flight but 10 Hours by Car,turned 67 today and its a bit strenuous.
Anyway I am back and the work on the Cars has already begun,you guessed right Used Vehicles at a good price but needs fixing if you are fuzzy like I am.Anyway thank you for that info I knew that vaguely as I ignored those Details and I did not get back to that Jerk to give him any satisfaction.He is like a bad cold that eventually goes away by itself.
Thanks again Pese
Hi Jeanna
Regarding the Aluminum and switching I see what you mean just to prevent corrosion it can be switched once every hour using a 555 timer and relay.To fast of the switching behaves like AC and is counterproductive as AC does not split water just boils it.
I did also do my experiments using rods in a small glass jar, where you could observe any quick responses to the changes one makes.
As I always stated the Alu gave off more Gas then the stainless with or without KOH .
But is it the Answer? I am currently busy with my two Cars and Experimentation has to be put aside for a while.
I am sure that we will have snow soon and it will be to cold in the Garage thus giving me time to retreat to my workshop inside.
professor