;D today my mind was twisted about one of my old idea's i picked up from my dusty idea books.
there is a high voltage plate capacitor.It get charged and disconnected.From now on no energy source is used to recharge it and by itself capacitor is not loosing any charge over time(to make it simpler).Now i shoot electron beam to pass between the plates of the capacitor.Electron beam was not energetic enough to produce visible light by itself,but when passing through the capacitor,the e-field makes additional work on the beam so electrons start to emit visible light.
This idea was to produce a source of light using less energy than bulbs and so on.On top of this concept i created many more inventions,all of it laying in a notebook until now that i had some time to think over it in deep :)
Now big question my brainy friends :) what happens to the electric field of the capacitor? obviously the charge is not lost(capacitor was disconnected from anything) so the electric field should behold its strength.It would mean that it makes work on charges but by itself its not loosing any energy ???
You brought an interesting topic up something I was thinking of a while ago and forgot. Purely technical an electrical field can do work and even deliver free energy imo. This can be done in many ways. Take two plates and make a uniform electrical field between them. Throw a charged particle through the field with an angle so it's main velocity gets affected and voila you have a particle that has more energy than it started with, without putting any other energy in it. I also had a super simple wheel idea based on this concept.
so in ur opinion efield is not affected over time?if it would be true,i feel so stupid i underestimated my inventions about it :-\
interesting wheel BTW much like local gravity-antygravirty concept(that's why i like efield,it can be made local :) ).Still it feels like magnetic motor design ;) so u should be cautious with sticky points.
Another idea of mine was to bombard water with this accelerated electron beam to produce hydrogen,but few months later i came with even better ideas.I just want someone to verify my way of thinking about the efield.If no one puts a flawn on it, then we have had free energy before our eyes laying and screaming ;D
PS:ths for pictures,it makes it more visible to the others.
so noone has an explanation? here i have a pice of interesting stuff then, how to connect efield to the 0PE(nergy) aka Openenergy aka ZPE :)I think 0PE is better description than ZPE.
In short is says how charge is extracting efield flux from the source and how is this source "recharged'.If this holds its own shit(untill noone can explain me otherwise),here u have a free energy from 0PE + a mechanism how to extract it ;D
We want to explain the above mentioned energy-flux of the efield and its propagation. And we want to explain the functioning principle of the conversion of vacuum energy into mechanical energy(of changed movement of the charge in the efield). This can be done as following:
Let us begin with the first aspect. This is the question in which way the space absorbs energy from the propagating field and in which way it supplies the field source (this is the charge) with energy: Each energy correction corresponds to an event of vacuum polarisation. Also the zero point oscillations have their contribution to these terms of energy (otherwise they would not be influenced by the fields). Although events of vacuum polarisation only occur temporarily, there are always some of these events going on, depending on their probability amplitudes. The situation describes a permanent (statistical) coming and going reminding to a picture of people coming and going along a street. Although they stay only temporarily in the street, you can always see people there. As long as events of vacuum polarisation occur, there exist some virtual electrons and positron and so on…
With other words: In this model, the efield generates a lot of events of vacuum polarisation during its propagation (because of the field’s energy) â€" and this is just the amount of energy which the field gives to the vacuum during propagation, so that the field strength will follow Coulomb’ law. The events of vacuum polarisation are the medium which extracts energy from the field.
The way how the field source is supplied with energy follows the same principle but to the opposite direction: The events of vacuum polarisation take finite time and finite space, but they don’t have to follow the directions of the flux lines of field. They diffuse to every direction and to everywhere in the space. Obviously they generate the loss of energy from the field during propagation .Some of them come close to an electrical charge (to a field source), and the charge extracts energy from them. It is not the issue here, to think about the mechanism of this extraction. It is even not said, that the fields source gets back the
In the notation of particle physics, the zero point oscillations are bosonic Quantum field fluctuations (because they are electromagnetic waves), and events of vacuum polarisation are fermionic Quantum field fluctuations (because they consist of particles like virtual electrons and positrons). Their conversion (which is necessary for vacuum polarisation) consists of processes like virtual pair production and annihilation. Especially in electric fields the probability amplitudes for the conversion for those both types of Quantum field fluctuations depend on external field strength. Thus the distance to the field source has an influence on the number of such processes occurring in a given time interval.
The number of events of vacuum polarisation per space and time (ultimately their probability amplitudes) is responsible for the amount of energy, which the field gives to the space.
So now a charge can extract efield energy via exchange with vacuum energy(polarisation differences).
When charge is inside the energy flux going from the field source into the space it obviously extracts energy from this energy flux â€" in detail as following:
The field source produces an electric field, thereby it emanates an energy flux which causes an alteration of the wavelengths of the zero point oscillations. As we know from the Casimir-effect, conducting plates block the propagation of the zero point oscillations. If we adopt this principle to our experiment, this means that between the field source and the charge, we have the alteration of the wavelengths. But on the other side of the charge, looking away from the field source, the zero point oscillations have the wavelengths as in free space without field, because this part of the space, which is shielded by the charge against the field source. Thus the wavelengths on the one side of the charge differ from the wavelengths on the other side of the charge. From the point of energy conservation, this is only possible, if the charge compensate the difference of energy. In fact the charge absorbs energy , because the total energy of the field is reduced in comparison to the situation withouta charge, because the field produced by the field source does not reach the space behind the charge.
In consequence this means that the energy flux is going from the field source to the charge which absorb some energy from the flux. The field source converts vacuum energy into field energy (this is the energy to alter the wavelengths of the zero point oscillations), which is a flux going into the space. This part of the flux which meets the charge is absorbed from the charge, being converted into mechanical energy(kinetic energy of the movement).
Hi,
Of course there is an explanation. You may not like it but here it is:
Electrons need to be brought at the ‘starting point’. See above drawing (broli) for identifying it.
That action requires energy. You may take simple cases and compute integral Fdr (work) and see that they are equal on incoming and outgoing paths. In all, energy balance holds true. No OU.
Another way of looking at it is electric fields are conservative, meaning that work on any closed loop is zero. So, if you ‘tie’ the electron with a string, although at ‘exit point’ it may have a higher velocity (and energy), when the string (an ideal one, no loses here are considered) is forcing it to return back on a circular path, it will close the path with no gain and no lose. That’ because on a closed loop there are portions of the path on which the particle is moving against the field thus decelerating.
No matter how a device of this kind is imagined, it won’t work.
…unless one finds a continuous spring of electrons being oozed out of nothing; I would also buy a couple of those springs, when available. ;)
Cheers,
Tinu
nice :) so we go forward.When we see this already i bring a next clue.
Pointed tip metal electrode is introduced in the presence of the efield from positively charged capacitor plate.Efield strength exceeds work function for sharp electrode tip.It allows it to loose electrons that accelerate through the field emiting photons.
Tip gets negative charge by electric induction and it's attracted to the plate.Obviously electrons deliver work,but field stays unaffected :)
Electron spring,here u go.
So? ;D
This is how electronic microscopes work and they still needed a power plug last time I’ve checked.
(I imagine they need it for charging the + plate then discharging the metal electrode(s), but wtf do I know?! )
Quote from: Creativity on December 10, 2008, 03:09:11 PM
Obviously electrons deliver work,but field stays unaffected :)
Wanna bet on it? ;)
haha :) the thing is indeed if the electron hits the plate,then the plate looses charge and needs to be recharged.But two things.
I place an nonconduction insulation right before the plate,so electron never reaches the plate.Plate stays charged and keeps emiting efield.Second thing,sharp electrode is not a part of the capacitor,just a piece of metal brought not between the plates of the capacitor,but to the side of it.
In this case capacitor looses no charge,so no power needed once charged.
So what happens if you build your plates shaped like a donut with a hole in the center and your dielectric the same, you would have a cavity that would bombard whatever was inserted with efield from all sides.
As it moved through the capacitor it would be subjected to +-+-+- would this break water or maybe a more stable form of water ice.
Those free electrons accelerating because of the dielectric field gradient can be caused to miss the anode entirely by using a magnetic field. The target you choose should be of interest.
i see u both start to get the feeling :) What i wanted is to discuss was the theory first,that's why i started this topic this way and not the other(from invention into theory).Time ago i posted that i research water braking without oxygen production.Electrons were indeed to bombard the water and produce H2.The point was to allow escape of electrons from accelerating efield by binding them via electrochemical reaction.It this sence hydrogen ion binds electrons,after the electron knock out hydrogen from water molecule.Efield is needed to supply extra energy to accelerate electron untill the point it has the energy required to split water.Also efield is essential to allow to overcome workfunction for sharp electrode.
I never thought about donut shape in this design.Idea was simple:
A glass of water between two cap plates.Glass would be the insulation.Inside of the glass the razor,submerged in the water(so i considered no air between sharp razor and water :) ).
Due to e-induction in razor,one of it's sides woulb be polarised positevely and second negatively.Since protons have less chance to escape the metal razor than electrons,the electrons will be the main particle leavig the razor.
One may say that razor will eventually run out of electrons(i was actually awaiting this from u guys ;) ).
And yes i agree :) but here also i have a smart idea how to supply extra electrons without external work.
If there was no reaction made for electrons,they would sit on the surface of the insulator and cancel the efield of the plate(this critics i also expected from u guys ;) ).That's why i choosed electrochemical reaction to get rid of the electrons.In a sense it is a electron pomp i am proposing.
So,now u see why i need somone to veryfy what happens with the efield.If cap stays charged it would mean perpetual hydrogen production,with no cost...for example(because u like hydrogen so much ;D)
Moving fast, eh? ;D
And my internet connection was down just for a couple of days…
Moreover, during this time, I also had to prevent freezing the whole Earth by accidentally or purposely sort-circuiting too many diodes… ;)
Quote from: Creativity on December 10, 2008, 04:22:47 PM
haha :) the thing is indeed if the electron hits the plate,then the plate looses charge and needs to be recharged.But two things.
I place an nonconduction insulation right before the plate,so electron never reaches the plate.Plate stays charged and keeps emiting efield.Second thing,sharp electrode is not a part of the capacitor,just a piece of metal brought not between the plates of the capacitor,but to the side of it.
In this case capacitor looses no charge,so no power needed once charged.
So, now that the complexity of the whole setup has been raised well above my imagination, I won’t even start to compute/analyze the field. It’s not that I couldn’t try, but I’m scared as hell you might add two or more conductors and God knows what else. (This is exactly what my former professors kept doing years after years with constantly increasing cruelty. ;D Not again, please!) Let's say it's way above my head…
Therefore, I humbly step back and nostalgically look at it:
I was so happy in our simple universe that was composed of a nail and a plate only. We both agreed, theoretically and experimentally, that it was a small but happy and, most importantly, a logically sane universe and no OU, no FE. That was before you brought into it two more pieces of metals and two more plastics! Shame on you to shake our tranquility here! I know about metals, we already had it inhere. Therefore, I’m afraid that the now suspected OU could come with the plastics only… It can’t be any other way because there are no other options to consider.
But it’s really strange, isn’t it?! Two (or maybe just one ???) pieces of plastic had changed a whole universe from non-OU into OU. Gee, that plastic must be a very special material that has been brought from a more advanced constellation! :o Will you reveal its source? I’d also buy a couple… ;D
At the state of affairs we are now, a lot of paradoxical questions puzzles my mind beyond supportability:
1. If one brings an OU material (plastic or whatever) into a non-OU universe, will the whole local universe become OU, changing its entire laws of physics/nature or not?
2. If not above, it would result that the marvelous material does not cause much effects around it. It means that it exhibits some kind of OU effects, but that’s it.
3. It that material is OU by itself, why would one need nails, electrons and other dirty stuffs around it? ;D
I’m deeply confused. Please help!
(Now, where is that closest piece of plastic around?)
Cheers,
Tinu
Hi
You guy's are way beyond me firing an electron into a cap, Iv heard of this, I have no education in electronics or any kind of physics so if I have a dumb idea or question you know why ;D
It seems the electrons are already there in an excited state why not use them.
Instead of a glass of water why not a quartz container or tube would this conduct the electron give it a path to bombard the water.
Also if the water was subjected to uv light to excite the molecule beforehand make it weaker would this help?
Later
Dave
Hey
Another question-idea if the cap was charged with a certain frequency would it resonate that frequency say 42.8 khz.
could it be pulsed
Sorry didnt mean to jack your thread.
it seems firing an electron into a cap would be like shooting pool in the dark ;D
Weel,idea is not to pulse the cap.Because when u pulse it,u take charge from -plate and pump it to + plate untill polarity is changed.Then u do the opposite.In that case free electrons that escaped from the sharp end will be pushed back(on the expense of the energy put to pulse the cap). What i want is a steady stream of electrons without ever recharging the cap (at this stage i don't take surge of cap into account) or any other work done on it,just initial charging,that have to payback many times more.
Quartz is ok if u want to use UV(glass is not letting that much of it).Glass is just the first idea that i had,can be plastic as in tinu almost poetic answer :)
on second thought half-pulsing can be usefull to recharge sharp electrode from missing electrones(backup plan for my other idea ;) ).
First the cap is charged.All of the electrons that could escape from sharp electrode are gone and sharp electrode is positevely charged(netto value).If now cap charge is discharged to some external cap,the only positevely charged object(sharp electrode would regain its electrons from enviroment.We charge back the cap and cycle repeats.
It seems to be lot of loses here to pump charge from cap to cap anyway :|
@tinu
u give up,never ! ;D plastic was just a one of the pices i have brought with me from the black market in OU universe.It was a bargin i must say.I exchanged it for few dark chockolade bars...well, they were convinced it is the dense form of a dark matter we use to power our bodies.I couldn't say no.It's black,it's caloric and it matters for us on the blue planet.
I got bored with the plastic anyhow,
i can use some idea's though,
give me some of efield conservant,
and the plastic will be in ur hand.
Quote from: Creativity on December 13, 2008, 06:52:13 AM
@tinu
u give up,never !
...
True, I don’t give up easily. ;D
Well, I’m glad you’ve got the real message behind my previous ‘poetical’ answer, which was otherwise meant to be just funny but thanks for the compliment anyway.
(For the kind members reading here: Reduction ad absurdum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum could never got the humanity out of caves as it was way above the intellect of that era but certainly the genius of Greek culture [and Aristotle in particular] was accelerating our advancement at an incredible rate. It’s still one of the most powerful formal logic tools we have our days…)
As for the e-field conservant, I don’t have any but certainly you can successfully replace it with a local time freezer. ;)
It was a very nice talk and many thanks for the beauty of the posts we’ve exchanged!
Cheers,
Tinu
Hello, guys,
Let me try an idea on you--
Suppose you have a bucket and you pour water into it. And, at some other place on the bucket, you remove the water. Can you think of a way to shape the bucket so that the amount of water you get out is greater than the water you put in? Maybe adding some electric or magnetic fields, then can you get more water out than you put in?
Sounds simple, doesn't it? -- The bucket can't make more water, no matter what you do.
Why do some of you think energy is different? It is just as immutable as the water. Whatever energy you put into a device is exactly the energy you get out. Simple. This is the first law, and you must violate it to make a perpetual machine of the first kind.
Maybe we could save a lot of time on this forum by first asking where the extra energy is going to come from. :D
If you can't answer the question, move on to a better idea.
Ernie Rogers
I m clearly waiting here for an explanation where is the energy taken away from capacitor.It is instructive for all of us to learn to see possible flawns in designs.I set this play to excercise the brain.
So what happens to electric field after it did work on electric charge?
protons on positive plate won't reach the work function due to the shape of the plate.Charge is not lost there,so the strength of the field is not getting weaker ,even though electrons were accelerated in the field.
if u can't answer the question ur argument is getting weaker.
For some of us, your question doesn't require much exercise. Since the field system you describe is static and conservative, no energy can be transferred to the charge without a change in potential between the starting point and the ending point.
Ernie Rogers
Quote from: Creativity on January 03, 2009, 03:38:26 PM
I m clearly waiting here for an explanation where is the energy taken away from capacitor.It is instructive for all of us to learn to see possible flawns in designs.I set this play to excercise the brain.
So what happens to electric field after it did work on electric charge?
protons on positive plate won't reach the work function due to the shape of the plate.Charge is not lost there,so the strength of the field is not getting weaker ,even though electrons were accelerated in the field.
if u can't answer the question ur argument is getting weaker.
@Creativity
Expand your thought experiment to imagining the accelerating field also moving or accelerating. Now those little charge carriers are really gonna get moving without effecting the polarizing scource. Longitudinal waves suppose to be able to do this.
Creativity,
I thought more about your problem, and would like to say some more.
Notice that I allow for the charge to acquire energy if the field potential at the final point is different than at the starting point. I wondered if your view made sense, that the energy transferred to the charge should appear as a reduction in field energy. The potential energy of the particle (which is transferred to kinetic energy with its change in field potential)-- does that reside in the field or within the particle? More broadly, when a rock rolls down a hill and gains kinetic energy, is there an equivalent decrease in energy within the gravitational field of the system?
I referred to my text book to refresh my understanding. I found enlightenment in chapter 6 of "Classical Electricity and Magnetism" by Panofsky and Phillips. I find that Maxwell had derived the energy in the field of a system, where the energy of an electrostatic field is the integral over the field of e
o/2 E
2 dv, where e
o is the permitivity of free space. (No dielectrics present.)
The book goes on to show that as the potential energy of a system of charges changes, the energy in the field changes by exactly the same amount. One concludes that there surely is an analog for gravitation as well.
Ernie Rogers
Quote from: CARN0T on January 03, 2009, 09:58:48 PM
For some of us, your question doesn't require much exercise. Since the field system you describe is static and conservative, no energy can be transferred to the charge without a change in potential between the starting point and the ending point.
Ernie Rogers
@Carnot
so,throwing infinite amount of asteroids on Earth will cause Earth to loose its gravity field? seems impossible.
that is the question i am facing.I will try to put the question in gravity terms to make it more clear.
Say i have Earth(charged capacitor plate) attracting drops of water from the rain cloud.Rain falls,and rain drops get accelerated by gravity field.Of course Earth is also attracted by rain drops,Earth moves towards the raindrops*.Now suppose i provide the way to elevate water back to cloud by evaporating and heathing the water vapour(this is the parallel with binding of electrons to the hydrogen atoms to leave the efield of capacitor plate).Repeating the cycle infinite many times,what happens to the Earth gravity field?does it gets any weaker?
In mine capacitor example i assume it an open system.Electrons got supplied to the electrode from surrounding(for example grounding of this electrode).Electrons are under field strong enough to evacuate from electrode(above work function for electrode).Electrons got accelerated in the efield of capacitor(they loose potential energy and gain kinetic) .Electrons hit the water molecules braking the bonds of water,electrons became part of molecules.Hydrogen (diatomic) forms and gets removed from the scene by gravity(with it electrons escape the efield).Cycle repeats.Is capacitor loosing any energy(letting surge to be neglected)?
It all looks like an electron pump (to compare it with a heat pomp used for heating systems).
OR to see it differently (in gravity terms) ,i try to crate the Earth,charge it with gravity and hope it will never run out.This gravity will then work on my rain i took from another galaxy(grounded wire).
*it is somehow different case with capacitor plate that is vast attached to the table and can not move,protons can't escape the capacitor plate.So protons energy can be transferred into heat of the plate,but that is only on the start of the machine,later they stay more stable because of the constant electron stream from the sharp electrode.
Quote from: sparks on January 03, 2009, 10:11:39 PM
@Creativity
Expand your thought experiment to imagining the accelerating field also moving or accelerating. Now those little charge carriers are really gonna get moving without effecting the polarizing scource. Longitudinal waves suppose to be able to do this.
one way or another it looks like free electron pumping :)