Well I am in the half baked section so here I go. While watching a video about a new hydrogen torch, I was very impressed with the effect the flame had on what ever it was cutting. The flame itself is less then 300deg. yet it can cut through tungsten at 10,000deg. What ever temp. is required to cut any metal......no problem with this 300deg. flame. I couldn't help but to think there has to be a way to turn that enormous amount of heat into energy. I first thought of using that heat to make steam for a turbine. A friend in the family ( MUCH brighter then I ) said the numbers don't add up. Any one else have any ideas on how to convert this heat to energy?
i don't know where u got the info but hydrogen burns with about 3000degC.Tungsten has melting point around 3700degC...also temperature and heat flux are two different things.
Both figures came from the video. He claims the flame from the torch is less then 300deg. He even runs his hand across it. The 10,000deg. figure also came from the video. It's a 10 min. video but interesting.
unfortunately there is no efficient way to convert heat into electricity... The closest maybe PL's diode array if it uses amient energy... but that is still theory ATM (well theory to everyone but PL, which PL i think it is ingeneous and should work and obey all the laws!!!) But that torch is a Hydrogen torch and they are very efficient in themselves. I have seen them work all over the place. You want to spin yourself out get one of these torches and a laser thermometer. And use that on the flame and then cut different substances...
Well I think what you saw is a video about Browns Gas or about monoatomic hydrogen...
The trick with the monoatmic hydrogen is, that you don't burn it like hydrogen to get the heat. You get the heat just by recombining the single H-Atoms to H2-Molecules. And for this process metals act like a catalyst. Therefore if you place this stream to your hand, it will not heat up much, but if you place a metal in this stream the recombination heat will heat it instantly...
Quoteunfortunately there is no efficient way to convert heat into electricity...
Well this is easily desribed by the Carnot-Efficiency. If you want to have an efficient conversion from heat to mechanical work energy (electricity through generator) you need a big temperature delta. E.g. you need to heat something very much to temperature T1, and then you cool it to temperature T2. The Carnot-Efficiency is then: n=1-T2/T1 (temperatures relative to absolute zero!).
E.g. if you would be able to heat something to 3000 Kelvin and the cool it to 300 Kelvin, then you would have an conversion efficiency of 90%. Surely it is very unrealistic to use a turbine at this temperatures...
Additionally you would have losses due to imperfect Turbines and Generators. But today these losses are not that big anymore...
But e.g. take a Jet-Engine. They do have such high efficiencies! For they have a very high temperature and pressure in the burning chamber...
Quote from: Shanti on January 05, 2009, 08:28:18 AM
Well I think what you saw is a video about Browns Gas or about monoatomic hydrogen...
The trick with the monoatmic hydrogen is, that you don't burn it like hydrogen to get the heat. You get the heat just by recombining the single H-Atoms to H2-Molecules. And for this process metals act like a catalyst. Therefore if you place this stream to your hand, it will not heat up much, but if you place a metal in this stream the recombination heat will heat it instantly...
there is no such thing as monatomic hydrogen. hydrogen is H2 even if you did produce H then as soon as it meets another H it becomes H2
theres no way round it unless you burn them one by one.
Quote from: Hydro-Cell on January 08, 2009, 01:32:25 PM
there is no such thing as monatomic hydrogen. hydrogen is H2 even if you did produce H then as soon as it meets another H it becomes H2
theres no way round it unless you burn them one by one.
in big picture i agree.As soon as hydrogen gets free at the electrode it seeks another hydrogen to form a pair with it and itpresents itself like this in any normal circumstances.
PS:just don't forget ionised hydrogen(plasma states,platinium catalisis inside hydrogen fuel cell(fuel cell is not electrolyser !people stop consufing things...))
@all
the question is still where to get the hydrogen in first place(and where to get enrgy to produce it in first place)
Quotethere is no such thing as monatomic hydrogen. hydrogen is H2 even if you did produce H then as soon as it meets another H it becomes H2
theres no way round it unless you burn them one by one.
Well, this is not exactly true! I looked at it again, and it seems, that as long as the temperature of the gas is > 600°C it remains in its monoatomic state.
Otherwise it would not be possible to do Arc-Atom welding!
See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_hydrogen_welding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_hydrogen_welding)
But I think this claim (> 600°C) in Wiki is a bit strange , as I would expect, that due to statistics some single H atoms will always be slow enough te be able to recombine. So I would expect that only the ratio of H to H2 would change due to temperature...
Quote from: Shanti on January 09, 2009, 06:19:55 AM
Well, this is not exactly true! I looked at it again, and it seems, that as long as the temperature of the gas is > 600°C it remains in its monoatomic state.
Otherwise it would not be possible to do Arc-Atom welding!
See here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_hydrogen_welding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_hydrogen_welding)
agreed but that is ionisation by electric arc.i took provision on that in PS part of my post.
My point was to make it clear that a hydrogen from electrolysis(brown gas) is always diatomic(inspite what i saw beeing said around this forums).
as on the website:
http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/AtomicH/atomicH.html
"Atomic hydrogen. - Langmuir (1912) has shown that hydrogen in contact with a tungsten wire heated by an electric current at low pressure, is dissociated into atoms:
H2 <=> 2H. This splitting of the hydrogen molecule is attended by the absorption of a large amount of energy, about 100kcal per gram molecule. The atomic hydrogen so formed is chemically very active. Langmuir also showed that atomic hydrogen is formed when an electric arc between tungsten electrodes is allowed to burn in hydrogen at atmospheric pressure. The atomic hydrogen was blown out of the arc by a jet of molecular hydrogen directed across the arc, and formed an intensely hot flame, which is capable of melting tungsten (m.p. 3400oC). This flame obtains its heat not from combustion but from the recombination of hydrogen atoms into H2. It is suitable for melting and welding many metals. Iron can be melted without contamination with carbon, oxygen or nitrogen. Because of the powerful reducing action of the atomic hydrogen, alloys can be melted without fluxes and without surface oxidation. A feature of the flame is the great rapidity with which heat can be delivered to a surface, which is very important in welding operations."
@overtaker
the concept of using it into energy production would be nice if we didn't have to supply the energy to the hydrogen by the electric arc :| it would be great for example to find a catalyst that would dissociate H2 at room temperature (and hydrogen would take the ambient heat).At next stage the hydrogen would recombine in other location rising temperature there.It would be a nice heat pump/fridge :)
Quoteit would be great for example to find a catalyst that would dissociate H2 at room temperature (and hydrogen would take the ambient heat).At next stage the hydrogen would recombine in other location rising temperature there.It would be a nice heat pump/fridge
Well, I got the same idea, but for one step less in water. Which uses the natural occuring autoprotolysis of water (2 H2O -> H3O+ and OH-). And this should actually just do exactly this.It would produce H2 and O2 out of water with the energy from ambient heat...
See here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6499.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6499.0)
As the reaction H2 -> 2H needs a lot of energy I would think it would be very difficult to get this reaction to happen with the help of ambient heat.
But the autoprotolysis of water needs much less energy and therefore it very likely happens with the help of ambient heat, as there are always quite some molecules fast enough to be able to ionize the water.
I think this is one major key in developing machines which violate the 2nd LOT. Take a reaction, that will need not too much energy to happen, so that due to the statistical distribution of the molecular movement, there will always be enough energy due to ambient heat to get this reaction to happen not too seldom. Now somehow prevent this reaction to reverse immediately. This means, you actually look for a reaction which produce things which are easily seperatable (e.g. different charges, or different weights, ...).
Now you can recombine them at another place, and get the heat, which you got from the ambient back there. A profound violation of the 2nd LOT.
Another example of such a principle, apart from my autoprotolysis idea is the following:
Pure theoretically it is possible to do a 100% efficient electrolysis. According to Puharich he developed a system which is able to do this (see his Patent). If this is true, I don't know.
Pure theoretically it is also possible to convert the H2 and O2 back to H20 with 100% efficiency. Surely not with a burning device due to the carnot rule, but theoretically it is possible to develop a Hydrogen Fuel cell with 100% efficiency.
Now you can convert H20 to H2 and O2 as you like. Up till now, no violation of any conventional rules.
But here comes the keypoint. H2 and O2 are much less dense than H2O. Which means, you can get work out of them due to the different densities.
E.g. put two electrolyzer plates deep in the ocean. Now electrolyze the water there. O2 and H2 will be built. But they are lighter than water and will therefore rise. This rising force you can now use to turn a generator (like the opposite of a water mill). As soon as the H2 and O2 reach the surface you can again convert them to H20 and pour it into the sea.
The generated electricity from recombining the H2 and O2 to H2O you again send by cables back to the electrolyzer plates...
Voilà , you now have a OU System, which violates the 2nd LOT, actually without violating any other conventional physics rule...
I could give you a lot of these examples, of such processes which actually should violate the 2nd LOT.
E.g. you could also just put the system above upside down. E.g. produce H2 and O2 at the earth surface. Recombine them back at the top of a mountain, and let the water which is flowing down do some work for ya...
Unfortunately all these systems, which work on this principle I imagined are very very inefficient. Which means, the energy you get is so small, that a practical realization doesn't make sense...
Are you guys talking about the MAHG principle? ... all working and tested - same principle as water cold fusion just on a smaller scale (more usable energy produced - heat)
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/
Did anyone thought about a double effect process - water to H2 and O and then H2 to H and reverse? Yeah, the effect of this should be a bit scarry 8)
Dann
Quote from: Shanti on January 09, 2009, 07:21:05 AM
Well, I got the same idea, but for one step less in water. Which uses the natural occuring autoprotolysis of water (2 H2O -> H3O+ and OH-). And this should actually just do exactly this.It would produce H2 and O2 out of water with the energy from ambient heat...
See here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6499.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6499.0)
As the reaction H2 -> 2H needs a lot of energy I would think it would be very difficult to get this reaction to happen with the help of ambient heat.
But the autoprotolysis of water needs much less energy and therefore it very likely happens with the help of ambient heat, as there are always quite some molecules fast enough to be able to ionize the water.
.....
Another example of such a principle, apart from my autoprotolysis idea is the following....
yep i saw ur posts before already, it made me to think.But u will need electron source to let the hydrogen get free out of ur ions.At some point autopyrolysis will stop because of the high concentration or reactans(it is true for all reversible chemical reactions).
My electron to hydrogen device i posted here (using efield of the shielded condensor plate)would be able to supply it.Maybe we can combine both of the methods to get it all working as a whole.
secondly temperature around of the catalyst can be higher than ambient.The idea is just to make the temp gradient with a use of this technique in place of electricity.So for example exhaust gases in ICE would supply the temp needed for catalyst to work,the temp will rise (above the exhaust gases initial temp) and allow for higher efficency of exhaust gases energy recovery by other device.Or like this we could try to make the cooling liquid heat extraction with some usuable efficency.
the last idea u came with is surfacing here regullary and it is technically possible i agree.
If i look at it once more,time ago i have already paralled this idea into electric and magnetic field in place of the gravity field,with different "working fluids".In this family of concepts there is no Violation of any law as i see it,it is just supported by external field(gravity,magnetic of electric).So it is a kind of gravity/electric/magnetic wheel concept under cover.
Cycle is simple:
1) put energy into reversible reaction/phase change that enables the working fluid to behave differently in external field
2)external field is doing the work on working fluid
3)at different part of the field the reaction (1) is reversed to recover for put energy
U described it for gravity field.For electric field i made description here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6254.0
where electron is the working fluid captured into hydrogen to allow it to escape electric field influence and close the cycle if used in fuel cell.
For magnetic concept:
Re: Repelling "Fan" theory for a magnet motor
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2008, 03:54:08 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote
today i got some idea ;D still need to research in though.i imagined a magnetic fluid/emulsion used to propell the small turbine.Fluid would use the magnetic field of a magnet to move itself.What if there was a simple ,reversible chemical reaction allowing for example to bind ferromagnetic into diamagnetic molecule...we could use this reaction to remove otherwise magnetic fluid from the magnetic field.then reverse the reaction to make it back a magnetic substance and fropell the turbine.
with working fluid as a ferromagnetic metal captured in the chemical molecule less attracted to the magnetic field.
@madddann
never heard of it before.
QuoteBut u will need electron source to let the hydrogen get free out of ur ions.At some point autopyrolysis will stop because of the high concentration or reactans(it is true for all reversible chemical reactions).
Well as I see it, as soon as you discharge the two cups with each other, or to ground, the H3O+ or OH- ions will become neutralized, which should actually result in the following reactions:
2H30+ and 2electrons -> 2 H2O + H2
4OH- -> 2H2O + O2 + 4 electrons
The question now is, do the now neutral free floating H atoms (or O atoms) interfere with the autoprotolysis process?
But actually you could easily circumvent it, by already producing extremely concentrated H3O+ and OH- cups in the first run. This you could do by pressing the water with much force through the nozzles, and having the nozzles so thin, that really only very very small droplets will leave...Then the energy is coming mainly from the pressure and not as potential gravitational energy, but that doesn't matter. If you would have then such very small highpressure drops, then you could have very very strong electric fields at the top, which actually means, the ion concentrations in the cups will be very high.
You could actually even neutralize them with a trick, even without loosing the electric charge. E.g. by let them drop down inside a farady cup, this would result in neutral drops...
(OK bad description, but I guess you will understand the principle anyway...)
But the problem there is, for that you would have to again add as much energy as gravitational potential energy, that all in all it wouldn't make sense. Well maybe for practical reasons...
QuoteOr like this we could try to make the cooling liquid heat extraction with some usuable efficency.
Sure, but this you have only, when you already have an inefficient process. E.g. a combustion engine...
Sure, then you can with this principle recover some of the lost energy. But all in all, you will not get better, than having a process 100% efficient which is additionally using ambient heat. For as long as your working liquid is hotter than the ambient heat, it will usually not get more energy from it, than loosing it to the environment.
QuoteU described it for gravity field.For electric field i made description here:
Well I also already desribed in this forum a device which is working with an electric field: My corona discharge device.
E.g. I mentioned it here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5172.msg114666#msg114666 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5172.msg114666#msg114666) and also in the Thestatika thread.
The principle is more or less, that you use the molecular air movement (ambient heat) to do work in an electric field, by ionizing the air...And for ionizing the air you use the property, that the geometric shape of a conductor determines the charge density at the different points...
This I tested, and it works, but the energy you get is as I mentioned too small to be practically usable.
Quotewhere electron is the working fluid captured into hydrogen to allow it to escape electric field influence and close the cycle if used in fuel cell.
Lol, I also got this idea some time ago. Seems we are thinking quite similar ;D
But as calculations or prototypes show, these principles all lack from efficiency. Which means, it is almost impossible to generate usable amounts of energy out of them...
At least all I calculated through...
Quote from: Shanti on January 09, 2009, 09:59:39 AM
.......
Sure, but this you have only, when you already have an inefficient process. E.g. a combustion engine...
Sure, then you can with this principle recover some of the lost energy. But all in all, you will not get better, than having a process 100% efficient which is additionally using ambient heat. For as long as your working liquid is hotter than the ambient heat, it will usually not get more energy from it, than loosing it to the environment.
i see i wasnt descriptive enough.Let me put it into the geothermal.The idea is that ambient heat(meant as the conditions in which hydrogen operates, that is hot water source and not surrounding air)is stored partially by hydrogen gas heat and partially by hydrogen bond dissociation.In this way the part of the heat is stored via chemical reaction at the source of heat and given away at the receiver.This does not imply that hydrogen will have higehr than ambient temperature.In fact,at the source the hydrogen will have the temperature of the source(as it supplys the energy constantly ) even after bond dissociation.
the receiver will be heated up by hydrogen gas heat(the same temp as heat source) and on top of that the hydrogen will recombine,rising the receiver temperature above the thermal source temperature.This process could be cascaded further raising the temperature of the last receiver in the cascade well beyond the heat source temperature.
In this way wa can rise the effciency of heat extraction from the low temperature source.We r not creating any heat here,we just rise the temperature at which we extract it.This efficiency gain allows us to use the heat source more efficiently and almost any heat source will be good to extract energy from it.
Quote from: Shanti on January 09, 2009, 09:59:39 AM
Well I also already desribed in this forum a device which is working with an electric field: My corona discharge device.
E.g. I mentioned it here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5172.msg114666#msg114666 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5172.msg114666#msg114666) and also in the Thestatika thread.
The principle is more or less, that you use the molecular air movement (ambient heat) to do work in an electric field, by ionizing the air...And for ionizing the air you use the property, that the geometric shape of a conductor determines the charge density at the different points...
This I tested, and it works, but the energy you get is as I mentioned too small to be practically usable.
Lol, I also got this idea some time ago. Seems we are thinking quite similar ;D
But as calculations or prototypes show, these principles all lack from efficiency. Which means, it is almost impossible to generate usable amounts of energy out of them...
At least all I calculated through...
i just had a fast look at what u were speaking in this other topic u mentioned.What u wanted to do is to scale it up by making it geometrically bigger.What i proposed it to scale it by quantity and miniaturising,introducing many sharp electrodes aiming at the capacitor plate.electric field of capacitor can be made very strong,way beyond the work function of sharp tips,creating big suction on electrons from surrounding.Anyhow i m eager to get ur calculations soon :)
QuoteThis process could be cascaded further raising the temperature of the last receiver in the cascade well beyond the heat source temperature.
In this way wa can rise the effciency of heat extraction from the low temperature source.We r not creating any heat here,we just rise the temperature at which we extract it.This efficiency gain allows us to use the heat source more efficiently and almost any heat source will be good to extract energy from it.
Lol, I'm dumb... :P
Still couldn't get the sense of this, think I still don't understand your concept...If you extract heat from the ambient anyway, you can deploy this energy at whatever temperature as you like?!? (just an energy question)
But I can't see where this cascading can actually increase efficiency, as the steps inbetween only get their energy from the step before, so all get their energy from the first one, which was able to draw it from the ambient???
QuoteWhat u wanted to do is to scale it up by making it geometrically bigger.What i proposed it to scale it by quantity and miniaturising,introducing many sharp electrodes aiming at the capacitor plate.electric field of capacitor can be made very strong,way beyond the work function of sharp tips,creating big suction on electrons from surrounding.Anyhow i m eager to get ur calculations soon
The calculations are nothing special, but I don't have the time to type them here. Just simple calculations, like using the boltzmann-distribution to get the probability of the different molecule velocities, the heat distribution velocity, which is quite low in air! And other factors...
The problem is often, especially in air, that if your able to use the energy of some very fast particles, you will cool there the air, and this energy first has to be equalized by the other air molecules before you can go on, as due to the lower temp, the probability of your fast particles gets smaller and smaller...
And this process is usually quite slow. E.g. if you heat air in one part of the room, it needs quite a while before it reaches the other part...
But using a fan, to increase this would usually not make sense, as the energy needed for this much exceeds your energy gain, at least with my methods...
Another problem with my described corona discharge device is the problem, that very fast the air gets saturated with ionized particles and therefore it doesn't work very well anymore. But as I said, just e.g. turning your "capacitor" to another place where some neutral air is, would solve this problem, you could then even just take a conductor into this ionized air and get again some energy out of it, by neutralizing them. the problem is you can'd do it directly fixed, as the neutralizer conductor should be quite away from your "capacitor", otherwise the neutralizer will act as an additional plate of your cap...
Generally is the problem, that e.g. air doesn't have much energy in it anyway. The heat capacity of air is quite low. So either you manage to cool it down very strongly, which is IMHO not realistic, or you have to have a very strong throughput of air, and to generate this you would need energy...
So I think minitiaturizing the edges wouldn't get you far, as you can't get the ambient air heat fast enough to your surface...At the start the surface would become faster cooler and maybe even a bit cooler than with my device size, but from then on the efficiency would break down, as the surface air is then cool...And ambient air would only slowly reheat it...
This is why I think this principle would only make sense for water, as water has a very high heat capacity. But water on the other hand has many disadvantages over air, e.g. it conducts quite good...Or that as it is a liquid doesn't have a mean free path, which actually means, you need to get the energy out of some chemical reactions, as charged particles cannot fly around...etc.etc...
E.g. if you take the Thestatika. If it would really take the energy completely out of the air (ambient heat), it's surfaces would freeze immediately, as it would have to cool the air so extremely...So you can already tell by that, this cannot be the principle...
I for myself think it uses this ambient heat principle only to generate some little power e.g. maybe around 20Watts to be able to turn the wheel (self sustaining) and to be able to use this energy to generate the real power (IMHO in the pots).
And the principle of this power generation is IMHO based on a completely different physics than we have today.
E.g. see Walter Russell, Worrell Keely, Viktor Schauberger, Karl Schaeppeller, ...
They all had the same cosmology, and they all were able to design
powerful devices. Shouldn't that be a hint for us all... ;)