Hi all!
I just got this idea and I was wondering that could this work or lead to something that works...
Gravitator
I see you are hard at it, with trying to come up with designs. For only exploring more and more will a positive outcome be possible.
Looking at your idea brings up one question. The lighter fluid has a higher level from the heavy fluid, and you have filled the balls up with fluid. Would it be better if the balls had only air and the taller light fluid have longer a lift time?
I have only dealt with bubbles so heavy fluids and light fluids I am not familiar with the effects. So it is time to start with vats of heavy fluid and light fluid and test lift in each. This is where I would start and then re-evaluate the the design. Understanding the effects will tell you if it is worth a build or what changes you need to make.
Good luck
How do you keep the light liquid separate from the heavy liquid?
Each time the ball went thru the light liquid it would get coated with light liquid, it would than move thru the heavy liquid mixing the two.
Also you need to come up with some kind of valve a ball can go thru with out leaking.
brian334
You bring up a very good point. If you have the movement, the mixing just gets worst.
This idea is not new and has had many variants over the years. In the version below the liquids suggested are mercury and water.
It is not so simple to explain satisfactorily why such a machine cannot work. There are complex issues involved. Needless to say in spite of many attempts no-one has built a workable machine.
Hans von Lieven
Gravitator,
Another problem is the heavy liquid is more dense than the light liquid.
The heaver the liquid is the harder it is to move it out of the way as the balls go thru it.
Or to put it differently the drag on the balls as they move thru the heaver liquid will offset the gain you get from the increased buoyancy.
Suppose the liquids are mercury and water and the balls are filled with mercury.
@brian
With this difference in dense I think the liquids will not be mixed. Or to be more detailed they
will mixed but they will get back to separate states quit quickly.
And if the balls are filled with mercury they are more or less like floating in heavy liquid.
Like balloon filled with water in bath. What it comes to drag on balls when moving in liquid I
think this can be decreased using different shape than ball. Something more streamlined.
@hans, @abhammer
In the version Hans show us the balls must have been filled with something lighter than water.
It could be air ? Or at least the dense of balls must be less than water. Without this they
will not rise up in water.
When the balls are so light it is difficult the get them through heavy liquid. That's why
I think the balls must be filled with mercury or other heavy liquid and not with air or other
lighter liquid than water.
@all
In the version Hans show us the movement is retrieved from buoyancy of light balls in water.
The idea in my model is to get the movement from balls falling down. The balls are bind to each other
like necklace of pearls. The falling balls will drag rest of balls which are "lighter" on left side
because of buoyancy. They are not lighter than light liquid.
In other words. Imagine that the balls are hang down freely without liquids. In this state they
will not move. The liquids are there to break this balance. I don't know if it is correct to say
that balls are dragging on right side or should I say buoyancy is pushing on left side?
@ Gravitator.
Can you not see that if the balls are heavier than the mercury they will not rise?
It really does not matter if your balls are sinking, they HAVE TO rise on the other side.
Hans von Lieven
@hans
They will rise. The idea is in breaking the balance using buoyancy like in attached picture.
The buoyancy is equal to amount of liquid weight the ball replaces when it is in liquid.
LOL
I suggest you study some hydraulics, Communicating tubes would be a good place to start.
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: brian334 on January 11, 2009, 01:45:13 PM
How do you keep the light liquid separate from the heavy liquid?
Each time the ball went thru the light liquid it would get coated with light liquid, it would than move thru the heavy liquid mixing the two.
Also you need to come up with some kind of valve a ball can go thru with out leaking.
There will be some mixing, but liquids will separate on their own back to natural state based on density. It is helpful if the difference in density is greater so that the separation happens quickly.
The only solution I can find for this at the moment, is this.
Basically... Use a super strong doughnut magnet, to distort the fluid level.
Now that is quite an interesting idea. Well done Bulbz. Something like this might even work. Question is how stable are ferrofluids?
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: hansvonlieven on January 12, 2009, 01:15:56 PM
Now that is quite an interesting idea. Well done Bulbz. Something like this might even work. Question is how stable are ferrofluids?
Hans von Lieven
Perhaps a few more magnets, placed clockwise after the position of the magnet that I already illustrated. I not sure that it will be expensive though, magnets and Ferro Fluid can be a bit on the pricey side.
Glad you like the idea Hans, thankyou for finding the time to view it 8)
Cheers.
Steve.
Bulbz,
I agree, very interesting solution!
I once played with a ferrofluid demo toy. It was two dispensing syringes attached at the end where the needle could be. So the plungers were at each end. The center area between the two plungers was filled with ferrofluid. So when you pushed in on one plunger the other would push out. The demo part was a small magnet that you could place on the center junction of the syringes. With this magnet in place it was impossible to push either plunger. The explanation was that the magnetic field caused the ferrofluid to act as a solid.
If the above it true, the ferrofluid near the magnet would become "solidified" and would not allow the balls to move through. Can anyone confirm or refute this concern?
M.
G'day Bulbz,
On reflection there are two flaws in the system as proposed that are unfortunately fatal.
I have little experience with ferrofluids but if I remember correctly you cannot push a ferrofluid with a magnet. From memory ferrofluids are fine soft iron particles suspended in a liquid of some kind. Whilst soft iron is attracted to a magnet it cannot be repelled with a magnet, you need an opposing magnetic field to do this, ie another magnet of opposite polarity.
The second flaw is the same as in a two liquid system. Since the floats have to be by necessity lighter than the fluid on the opposing side the pressure that needs to be overcome to push the floats around the bend as it were is greater than the column of the floats on the opposing side can generate and buoyancy works against you instead of for you.
Still, you are an original thinker and we need people like you in this forum. Good luck.
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: mondrasek on January 12, 2009, 02:14:14 PM
Bulbz,
If the above it true, the ferrofluid near the magnet would become "solidified" and would not allow the balls to move through. Can anyone confirm or refute this concern?
M.
You are correct Mondrasek
Hans von Lieven
Bulbz,
I agree, too! Very interesting and unique concept! Excellent idea!
Quote from: mondrasek on January 12, 2009, 02:14:14 PM
...
I once played with a ferrofluid demo toy. It was two dispensing syringes attached at the end where the needle could be. So the plungers were at each end. The center area between the two plungers was filled with ferrofluid. So when you pushed in on one plunger the other would push out. The demo part was a small magnet that you could place on the center junction of the syringes. With this magnet in place it was impossible to push either plunger. The explanation was that the magnetic field caused the ferrofluid to act as a solid.
If the above it true, the ferrofluid near the magnet would become "solidified" and would not allow the balls to move through. Can anyone confirm or refute this concern?
M.
Yes, I'm afraid this would happen... Ferrofluids are all a colloidal mixtures of solid ferric nanoparticles dissolved in a liquid (light oil)...
In device described, the magnet would probably cause a greater density of solid particles, and clogging of the passage...
The other problem could be leaking of the ferrofluid in the axis of the magnet. Ferrofluids don't act like a polarised "hard" magnets, they behave more like paramagnetic material... The repel would not happen like it is drawn in the picture.
Hey, just IMHO....
The concept is intriguing. If anyone has a pint of ferrofluid at hand...? Cheers!
Hello again Guys...
If the magnet was move to the position in the picture, would the fluid act in the desired way ?. Or would some of the fluid just collect around the magnet, leaving the rest to level out ?.
P.S... I have another design in my head, but it may take me a while to draw an illustrasion. I will get back to you with that one. ;)
Quote from: hansvonlieven on January 12, 2009, 01:26:14 AM
LOL
I suggest you study some hydraulics, Communicating tubes would be a good place to start.
Hans von Lieven
Thanks Hans. I started my studies at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy ???
@Bulbz
Very interesting idea :)
Good on you Gravitator,
If you have any questions that you need to talk over with someone feel free to contact me. I'll be happy to help with your studies.
Hans von Lieven
Quote from: hansvonlieven on January 13, 2009, 02:05:20 AM
Good on you Gravitator,
If you have any questions that you need to talk over with someone feel free to contact me. I'll be happy to help with your studies.
Hans von Lieven
Thank you :) I have one. I this pictures there are two nuts. In first picture nuts are in balance and in second picture
one nut is in water and it don't touch the glass at all. Why does this change the balance ?
Quote from: Gravitator on January 12, 2009, 10:52:24 PM
Thanks Hans. I started my studies at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy ???
@Bulbz
Very interesting idea :)
Perhaps you could continue your studies at
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/themes/buoyant.htm
and
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm#buoy1
Quote from: Gravitator on January 13, 2009, 06:32:06 AM
Thank you :) I have one. I this pictures there are two nuts. In first picture nuts are in balance and in second picture
one nut is in water and it don't touch the glass at all. Why does this change the balance ?
I guess Hans is sleeping, so I'll answer. When you lower the nut into the water, you are displacing an equal volume of water, all the way up to the top of the water level (watch the water level in the glass when you lower the nut into it--you will see it rise slightly.) This takes work, to raise that water, and it is just this work that is returned when a buoyant float rises.
The difference between the mass of that raised water, and the mass of the nut, is your buoyant "force". It is only gravity in disguise.
Since gravity is a conservative field of force, the potential energy of a mass depends only on its height, not how it got there. The fact that some of the object's path is under water, is irrelevant to the energy balance. When you introduce a buoyant object into the bottom of a liquid-filled chamber, the very first thing that happens is that you are lifting that volume of water to the top of the chamber. As your float rises, this water "falls" back under the float--this is what makes it rise. The only energy returned is what you put in in the first place, to raise that water up.
You get out what you put in, minus losses, and the only thing that adding buoyancy does, is to make things wetter.
@TinselKoala
Thank you very much :) You are absolutely right and this was something I didn't think about.
I was wondering how it would change things if the balls are replaced with tube divided into cells.
This way the water level don't change at all.
No need to answer to previous question. I think I know the answer: I get a wet tube :D
Me and my wet balls, LOL to myself :D :D TinselKoala and Hans, thank you for helping me to understand !