Hi all
I am new to all this so please forgive my ignorance. I do not have a PHD just a GED lol.
My question is ; what is the expansion rate or size of HHO?
If you Ignite a ml or liter of HHO gas does it increase in volume or size .Not sure if I am getting it rite but if I ignite a liter of HHO will it increase in volume expand or what just trying to figure out what happens when you ignite it . I have ignited some balloons have blown my cell up by accident once so I know it has to expand but how much. Please be gentle again I am a layman not a scientist at all .
Thanks any input is greatly appriciated.
Captainl67
Pure HHO implodes so the expansion rate is negative...
HHO implodes and explodes even in what is called pure HHO or HHO from the electrolysis process in the ratio of 66.6% and 33.3% I have been studying this for some time with a gas detonation device I have been working on using a detonation chamber ,high speed camera and an Oscope with appropriate sensors. Both implosion and explosion reaction is near 40,000 feet per second. There is also a very strange field effect that goes on during this reaction. Greater study is required to understand what this field is.
IH!!!
Just a thought to your explanation, not to disput you!!! you know i think your an invaluable when it comes to HHO information!!! you said HHO in the perfect mix explodes and implodes. is it possible that there could be multiple reactions happening... H2O and H2O2?!? one being implosion and the other explosion? I am only working on some possibility of mixing only hydrogen and oxygen... Would seem possible no?
BTW i am looking at your opinion not hard evidence :)
The only mix ever found to get equal reactions is 66.6 and 33.3 But there are four components here in the effect implosion, explosion , shockwave and this strange electrical field for lack of a better term.
Experiment, find more data with what ever you can imagine that will give us more info. There are very few real experiments going on today to tell us what is really going on in this reaction of different mix types.
Ok
help me understand . I blew the top off of my electrolyzer to me that would be explosion ! so how far does a liter expand in such a case. and what is pure HHO ?
and has anyone seen this implosion ? I have run it in a 25cc engine without any extra air or intake of air so I am thinking explosion. ??????????
Like I said thow I am not as informed as you guys so please use some laymen terms.
Many have . But because of the shock wave moving outward you can run a piston engine .. There is still a vacuum effect but the explosion and shockwave given time to propagate over come this, driving the piston. This effect will increase with added air. More air will slow the burn time, mainly because of the nitrogen as it is inert. There are many different experiments and devices you can build to see the difference in a vacuum outcome or a expansion outcome or both. Sealed chambers and inert gas injected chambers such as the piston engine. There are far to many of these test to list, so here are just a few of the videos we have done. Sorry I am trying to cram far to much in to such a short reply. I hope to explain more as this thread builds.
SSC showing pure HHO running a small gasoline engine in a very informative long series
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C547458B2E914426
Allgood's experiment on shockwave and expansion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JkQZIm1wN0&feature=channel_page
CarbideTip's implosion effects experiments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AoOdjt-xyg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XCDJinhA_8&feature=channel_page
And here Carbide is showing both effects
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IucbKX0E7NE&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozlnA-w4JOI&feature=channel_page
Pure HHO is derived from the water cracking process. 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen. This is where the ratio of 66.6% Hydrogen and 33.3% Oxygen comes from . If there is nothing else added to this mix such as air or other we see a stronger implosive effect. This has to do with burn time and propagation. At this mix the burn rate it about 40,000 feet per second .Adding other gases including air will slow this burn rate down.
"How far does a liter of HHO expand" . this depends on the burn rate and the added air amount or the air that is already in your device. If there is no air or steam or any other gases in the container the gas will imploded causing the container to destruct inward but as the air comes in through the broken pieces you then have the explosion effect and this is what you end up seeing as this all happens so fast.
I know some of this sounds contradicting , but there are many factors in this simple gas reaction and the outcome of its force.
Well, I've had implosion-explosion events in my HHO experiments. I've seen plastic bubblers collapse from outside air pressure, after an implosion. I've seen cylinder head parts cracked, after explosion. So I think the correct ratio of gases can produce an explosion/shockwave, and then the product of the reaction (water vapor) condenses and produces the implosion effect. In fact, this explosion/implosion is an old-timer's way of getting a partial vacuum in a glass vacuum tube. You fill the tube with water, electrolyse it till the water is displaced by gas, use the pump to evacuate this gas, flame-seal the tube (carefully!) then send a little arc thru the electrodes in the tube to explode/implode the remaining gas. You wind up with a much stronger vacuum than your pump will pull, and a little residual water vapor in the tube.
It would seem to me that a properly-designed IC engine for HHO would take advantage of the explosion, to push the piston down in the normal way, and also the implosion, to pull it partially back up during what would usually be an "exhaust" stroke.
Problem is the reaction happens so quickly it would not go through its stroke at least with the perfect mix for expansion and contraction that has propagation due to burn time. So some kind of valve system to send the vacuum to the other side would be needed. Or to another piston that is in the vacuum stroke trimming If that makes sense.
But that is for another thread I think
Hi Iron_Head,
I found this vid here which is a very remarkable demo of implosion and accelleration-value of a piston :
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=CkrCCo4Q0cI (http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=CkrCCo4Q0cI)
This is the guy :
http://www.excusertech.com/Company.htm (http://www.excusertech.com/Company.htm)
Regards
Kator01
I dont think implosion could take place in a very hot combustion chamber. ???
As TK and others have said the implosion happens, I've experienced the collapsed bubbler syndrome myself.
When HHO explodes it creates energy and water.
Even if that water is expanded many times in the form of steam due to the heat of its surroundings, it still occupies less area than the disassociated gases due to molecular recombination back into a form of water.
I've often wondered at what type of mechanical means could harness both effects as the explosion/implosion conversion happens very quickly and the internal combustion engine (piston form) just can't turn fast enough to capitalize on that.
I'm not sure even a heavily modified Wankel could.
Rotary is on the books for my major project once i get my cell running noice... 1984 Celica XX with a 13B or 20A (if i can get my hands on one) converted into it... should run nicly and have plenty of hood space to place any sort of Cell i want in there
Quote from: exxcomm0n on January 22, 2009, 10:48:54 PM
As TK and others have said the implosion happens, I've experienced the collapsed bubbler syndrome myself.
When HHO explodes it creates energy and water.
Even if that water is expanded many times in the form of steam due to the heat of its surroundings, it still occupies less area than the disassociated gases due to molecular recombination back into a form of water.
I've often wondered at what type of mechanical means could harness both effects as the explosion/implosion conversion happens very quickly and the internal combustion engine (piston form) just can't turn fast enough to capitalize on that.
I'm not sure even a heavily modified Wankel could.
Hi thanks for the reply,
If water is injected then atleast it would help remove (even better if it would cause more expansion) the effect of implosion making the engine more efficient. It would be nice to see an engine using the explosion/implosion but I think it would be extremely difficult to achieve. :-\
Gentlemen
What process explains the Hydrogen torch? [Browns gas,numerous U Tube demos Etc]
DR Stifflers continuous burning flame at no pressure
Chet
Quote from: ramset on January 25, 2009, 11:11:31 AM
Gentlemen
What process explains the Hydrogen torch? [Browns gas,numerous U Tube demos Etc]
DR Stifflers continuous burning flame at no pressure
Chet
if i remember right, mr Stifflers was separating oxygen from the hydrogen before burning the gas.
hydrogen torch use flame arrestor.
NOP
Yes Stiffler separated the Hydrogen{I forgot that part][lighting it right on top of the water in a wick]
Does browns torch also separate the oxygen?
Chet
Hi Chet,
I'd think there are 2 reasons for the HHO torch not to "blow itself out" w/ the implosion effect.
1.) The torch is not a sealed chamber.
As Ironhead pointed out from his experimentation, there has to be a pretty specific ratio of 66.6% (H2) and 33.3% (O) for "perfect" recombination. A bubbler ignition is a good example of this. An explosion in an airtight bubbler should completely implode and destroy the bubbler.
A bubbler does not completely implode and rupture (if it is made of a flexible material like a plastic soda bottle) from ignition because it has 2 outlets, the gas inlet from the generation chamber, and the gas outlet (to torch, tank, etc.).
The ignition source is always (hopefully) coming from the outlet side so if the flame front from ignition is traveling towards the bubbler there is a small vacuum in its previous path so it is "sucking" atmosphere behind it as it explodes to fill the vacuum created by recombination.
The explosive force when the flame front reaches the bubbler blows water back up the supply tube from the bubbler towards the generation chamber, momentarily compressing the gas output from the generator (again, hopefully. If not, it can be at the very least a big mess), and then sucks it back with the resulting vacuum.
The explosion happening in the bubbler can push water back towards the generation chamber and suck it back during implosion, but has more explosive force pushing back towards the outlet because of not having the resistive force of pushing water and positive pressure from the gas generation chamber (pushing atmosphere, or expanding towards the vacuum in the line it created getting to the bubbler).
2.) The torch flame is getting a continuous "feed" of HHO
A good torch will be supplying HHO to the flame at a rate faster than the burning HHO can travel back towards the gas supply through the (small) hole it goes through towards the atmosphere. The bigger this hole is, the more gas supply is necessary to keep it from traveling back towards the supply chamber.
If you cannot supply gas fast enough for the hole size, flashback occurs and the implosion can be seen because of the airtight nature of the HHO gas generation, the collection path and the small aperture of the hole used for your torch as the path of least resistance to the atmosphere.
Otherwise, you just hear a "POP" when the torch flame snuffs itself.
Thanks EXX
Speaking of burning water and a lot more
http://www.browngas.com/eng_bestkorea/history_1.htm
An HHO heater the inventor infers he has running overunity
HHO burning in a torch quite cool 400, 600F
Put that same flame on a piece of MANGANESE OR TITANIUM 3200F
This guy did the obvious , plus got the cell pumping MUCHO gas
Checkout his patents
Im trying to get my brain around this Korean fellows Heating device
For sale in Korea [South]
This patent will be of interest
US 6,761,558 Heating apparatus using thermal reaction of brown gas
US 6,397,834 Brown gas heating furnace made of mineral stone
Chet
there are only 2 ways to stop a cumbustion.
-prevent comburant(oxygen) to reach the flame.
-decrease the temperature below the ignition point of what is burning
Hey Chet,
I've often wondered what causes the wide disparity between the flame reaction temperature depending on what the substance is.
I've come to the conclusion (through occidental proof, no personal in depth experimentation) that it is the moisture content of the material that governs the reaction temp.
Since metals and glass can have very little humidity content vs. skin or a piece fruit and they react with much more temp creation and react (burn) hotter.
Why the humidity might have this effect may be the same as why Indian fakirs can walk over hot coals without getting burnt.
By vaporizing water a thin layer barrier is created that retards the chemical or pyrotechnic reaction that can cause much higher temps.
Then there's the fact that combustion is in fact creating water on it's outer edge that is already vaporized and sort of creating the barrier.
This is not proven and does not come from any other source than my head, so I'm sure it's incorrect.
As to how the water heater functions, I'm looking into the patents you posted, but I don't have a clear picture of it yet due to bad translation to english.
;)
P.S. If it were warmer out I'd crank up the torch and try the theory on a full soda can or an apple.
EXX
Something to do with TRANSMUTATION of elements
lots of info here http://www.brownsgas.com/nuclearwaste.html
Chet
PS original patent info from user Stefan his first post here
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3597-hho-heater.html
EXX
Ever since I learned that Yule Brown treated contaminated radiation with his HHO
,and the odd anomaly of a cold HHO flame in atmosphere making 3200F.up against Titanium
It seems to me we should at the very least be using the gas the way the Koreans are
Take that 300 F flame and turn it into a 3200F furnace [10 times more out then in ,at what cost?]
Get your self a pound of water, a Titanium bolt[melting point 3000F]
Hang the bolt in the water [you might even be able to run the torch under the water up against the submerged bolt]
Measure the time it takes to raise the pound of water one degree[in one minute] [definition of a BTU ]
And we can calculate the efficiency
Chet
All
the way i understand it the heater that is forsale in Korea doesn't use water [after the flame]
IT has a primary reaction chamber [where 1 unit in gives ten units out, no charge]
and a secondary plenumb above
THE UNIT IS NOT VENTED ALL HEAT DOES WORK [warms your ass]
NO emisions [clean air is the byproduct]
300F in 3200F [at no extra cost]out
Chet