I ran across a really obscure website a really long time ago that featured an inventor who had built a number of overunity generators that were quite small and output power in the 10-50 kW range (maybe > 100 kW, it was a long time ago). They were dead simple, and I don't remember ever hearing a word about them anywhere else. The website was very obscure and almost completely all images and I haven't been able to ever find it again. The inventor claimed interest by several governments, but that is all I remember about the facts surrounding it. However, I do remember the device design.
The idea is simple. He had a rotor with axial magnets that he spun with a small high-rpm drive motor. He had additional magnets positioned perpendicularly to the the rotor magnets such that the rotor magnets passed by the armature magnets through their Bloch walls (the middle of a magnet, basically). Because the rotor magnets passed by the armature magnets through their Bloch walls, he found that there was no significant drag on the rotor, and it could be kept at a very high rpm (6000-7000?) with very little input power.
The armature magnets, however were significantly affected by the flux of the rotor magnets, and he was able to remove very significant amounts of power from windings on each end of the armature magnets. I believe he said that he used 8 or 10 gauge wire for the output coil on the armature magnets and this allowed for outputs of somewhere around 50 kW with 8 armature magnets (16 output coils). I also believe that he was using low field strength magnets like Alnico or ferrites.
If this design is valid, then it is one of the easiest and simplest ways to realize very significant overunity power production. I have attached a diagram of what I remember. I would appreciate your feedback and consideration.
Hi,
Very interesting idea.
As I imagine that setup- on the rotating disk we have attached magnets with alternate poles facing stationary magnet with pick-up coils. When,let's say pole N is approaching stationary magnet precisely in its middle- forces acting on the rotary magnet equals and cancels-out,because rotary N is pusheded-out by N side and pulled-in by S side of stationary magnet.So,there should be no drag on the rotating disc.
I must check it out.
Thanks man!
Regards,
pix
Yes, it is interesting. When the rotor magnets approach the stationary magnet, the Lenz forces generated by the pickup coils should cancel each other out, so no drag, but huge power out (if you spin it fast). To me, this one looks really interesting, and really easy to build. The solid state version looks possible, and easy, too. ;D
Peace,
Joshua
Hi all,
using clusty-search-engine I found some interesting info on this :
http://community-2.webtv.net/@HH!58!7B!CC828678B860/SkyVessel/MagneticNeutral/ (http://community-2.webtv.net/@HH!58!7B!CC828678B860/SkyVessel/MagneticNeutral/)
Clusty-search on the topic :
http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query=Blochwall+Generator (http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query=Blochwall+Generator)
Clusty-Search general :
http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query= (http://clusty.com/search?input-form=clusty-simple&v%3Asources=webplus&query=)
Regards
Kator01
Thanks, Kator, that was definitely not the website I remembered, and I believe it was a different inventor, but those are very interesting also. If the inventor was being truthful on his website, and it did appear so, then this device has already been successfully built in multiple variations and with huge overunity power outputs.
To make it a little easier to understand how balanced the forces are as the rotor passes the stator magnet and winding, I have redrawn it to be just one coil on the magnet. Here's the way that I am thinking about this.
1. As the rotor magnet approaches the stator magnet, it decreases the stator magnetic field strength along it's axis due to the interaction of the fields of the two magnets.
2. This decrease in the field induces current to flow in the power pickup coil.
3. The current flowing in the pickup coil induces a Lenz force which opposes the magnetic field change in the stator, so the magnetic field does not change as much as it would if the coils were not there. But that is okay if it doesn't cost significant power to make the change.
4. The Lenz force generated is seen as balanced by the rotor. To simplify greatly, Lenz force is generated out of the top of the stator coil which is exactly opposite that generated out of the bottom of the stator coil, and the rotor feels both, and they both cancel each other out.
It appears perfect. Can we figure out why it would not work?
Peace,
Josh
Jkgulick, thanks for bringing this information forward. This is neat it's such a simple idea I had to try it.
I whipped up a very simple test. I have an old shaded pole fan motor and a small diametrically magnetized magnet taped to the end of the shaft. Then I wrapped a long cow magnet with about 40 windings of standard 24 gauge wire( this was non-magnetic wire just solid copper). Not the best winding but just something to see if I could get anything out of it.
Now since this is a very un-scientific preliminary test I layed the cow magnet with coil on the table with the spinning shaft over it. As I moved the coil around toward the middle sweet spot I got 1.4u Amps and 1.4millivolts(no load), really small but what is interesting is that the amps and voltage almost mirrored (uamps to mvolts) each other at the sweet spot(bloch wall?, middle?, neutral plane?). As you move towards the ends it will lose voltage and current also you will get a pull on the rotor which will push the motor to the side. The middle area doesn't have that pull.
I can see with a better setup, stronger diametric magnet, a fast rpm low power motor, better and more windings this could really start to generate.
I will do more testing tear it all down and get a better setup going.
I would like anyone else to try to see if you can validate my results. It's really simple to try, these are the parts I'm using.
The fan motor was from a small kids fan that had a cracked blade.
Here is the diametric magnet I'm using. It's pretty small only .754 grams so a high speed motor would have no effort spinning it.
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D42DIA
The cow magnet is this:
http://www.magnetsource.com/Solutions_Pages/cowmagsAlnicoPill.html
Just in case the cow swallows the tractor or something. I picked this up at the local grain store.
Dreamthinkbuild, thanks for trying this out. There's something about it's simplicity and symmetry that makes me think that this is really significant. If you measured a little bit with your meter, I would wager that at the instant your little magnet was passing near the coil, the current/volatage was much higher, don't you think? You probably can't notice any drag with what you have now, but that is what is really interesting. :-) With big magnets and big coils and high speed, this should really be neat. Also, I think that the fellow said that his output was AC, but I might be wrong. Does that make sense?
Just some thoughts here.
When the magnetic field changes in the cow pill coil setup due to the rotating diametric disc magnet, would the usage of the induced current in the coil cause push back against the rotating disc? Or would it try to push against only the cow pill's field?
Seems very interesting. I would like to try this out with a larger setup than was discussed above if the push back can be theorized or proven to be null.
@Jkgulick,
It produces AC. I'm also wondering if your first image you have would be a better setup than a long magnet. Use 2 coil wrapped ferrite bars with a magnet in the middle. Have to play with different configurations and see what generates the best. Higher speed does make a big difference though.
@Staffman,
QuoteWhen the magnetic field changes in the cow pill coil setup due to the rotating diametric disc magnet, would the usage of the induced current in the coil cause push back against the rotating disc? Or would it try to push against only the cow pill's field?
That is a good question. I get very little resistance from the small magnet as long as I keep it parallel to the cow magnet and don't get near the ends. I haven't tried putting any load on my current setup, the voltage and current is so minute.
I'm waiting for better parts to come in right now. I finally got some more time to work with it. I did 82 turns of standard 24 gauge wire. My first test was contaminated I noticed that when I checked the frequency and sure enough 60hz appeared which meant the shaded pole fan motor transformer was leaching into it.
To eliminate that I'm now using a battery powered Dremel tool with 2 speeds 10k RPM and 20k RPM. I noticed something odd which is the more turns I put on it the sweet spot seems to move towards the ends(about .5 inch from top of pill) and not the middle.
I got the scope hooked to it now so I can see what this beast is generating. It is quite interesting. This is taken towards the sweet spot or almost near the end of the cow magnet. Using the same diametric magnet as before.
10k RPM
CH1 20.0mV 5.000ms 10.00kSa [Date:2/12/2009]
Vpp 22.4mV
Vmax 12.0mV
Vmin -12.8mV
Vavg 1.99mV
Vamp 18.2mV
Vtop 7.67mV
Vbase -5.54mV
Vrms 5.82mV
Vover 32.4%
Vpre 10.4%
Frequency 149.0Hz
Rise Time 2.000ms
Fall Time 2.100ms
Period 7.100ms
Pulse Width+ 3.300ms
Pulse Width- 2.500ms
Duty+ 65.7%
Duty- 33.8%
CH1 20.0mV 5.000ms 10.00kSa [Date:2/12/2009]
Vpp 44.0mV
Vmax 28.8mV
Vmin -14.4mV
Vavg 3.89mV
Vamp 45.6mV
Vtop 29.6mV
Vbase -14.4mV
Vrms 12.8mV
Vover 39.6%
Vpre 5.26%
Frequency 270.0Hz
Rise Time 2.300ms
Fall Time 900.0us
Period 3.800ms
Pulse Width+ 1.300ms
Pulse Width- 2.700ms
Duty+ 32.4%
Duty- 66.7%
The frequency is quite interesting, also the duty cycle seems be inverted from 10k to 20k. If I take the Dremel tool and go horizontal to the cow magnet it generates a lower voltage but is like a distorted square wave. Have to play with it some more.
Quote from: jkgulick on February 07, 2009, 01:03:17 AM
With big magnets and big coils and high speed, this should really be neat. Also, I think that the fellow said that his output was AC, but I might be wrong. Does that make sense?
Yes. I tried a simple slow running set up, and my Avometer did not follow the changes when set to DC. I speeded up the rotation, set
the meter to AC, and the voltage was fluctuating but consistent.
There is something very interesting about this idea.
Paul.
This is an interesting thread guys,
Just as a corollary to this have a look at Ron J Meyer's device. You will find a good set of drawings in a series of articles I did on Stubblefield.
http://keelytech.com/stubblefield.html
The drawings and descriptions are towards the end of the paper. Here again we see the use of the Bloch wall in a so-called free energy device.
Check it out, you might find it useful.
Hans von Lieven
@ jkgulick,
Would you not get the same effects of your generator 1 and 2 if you left the magnet out of the coils? Something akin to a Faraday generator?
Hans von Lieven
Thank you for taking the time to prepare 'The Stubblefield Papers' Hans...looks like a great piece.
I'll be going over that a few times...NS was always a favorite of mine...more so after I saw a young Tesla pictured at one of his demonstrations.
Regards...
Regards...
@Hans
In reference to 'The Stubblefield Papers'....
I hope you are aware a recent paper proved magnetic fields can be manipulated with circular polarized coherent light.
;)
No, I am not BEP, I would be obliged if you could furnish me with some references.
Thanks
Hans
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/30762
"The laser pulse was circularly polarized, which means that it creates an intense but highly localized magnetic field"
'Naaaa... U can't create a magnetic field with light! What heresy!'
Nature is always a two-way street. We have gyroscopes that use laser light and magnetic fields. It is about time these folks found out it works the other way, too.
Bucha idjets they ur
Thank you very much BEP,
Obviously it is early days yet, but the fact that it can be done opens a whole new avenue of research. Fascinating stuff.
Thanks again for pointing it out to me.
Hans von Lieven
I was quite sure the magnetic could be affected by light. When I saw the light must have Faraday rotation it connected to Helmholtz's ad infinitum rule.
The part that intrigues me is the timing. Theoretical maximum speed of electronic control of the magnetic is 2ns? While this works in fs? 2ns the maximum usable expected switching speed of any future electronic device or.....
Does this then mean there IS a speed difference between the electromagnetic and light OR they are working in different frames?
If different frames then different closed systems. This takes me back to ad infinitum
Thanks for the link. I'll try taking the magnet out and see what effect it has.
Here is some more info on using light to affect magnetic material.
"...Moreover, the effect of this ultrashort optical pulse on a magnetic system was found to be equivalent to the effect of a similarly short magnetic field pulse with strengths up to 1 T. Therefore, in contrast to the well-known magneto-optical Faraday effect, where the polarization of light is affected by magnetic order, these experiments demonstrate the feasibility of the inverse, opto-magnetic phenomenon: polarized light affects magnetic order via the inverse Faraday effect..."
Really neat stuff.
http://www.ru.nl/ssi/research_program/spin_and/photomagnetic/
http://www.ru.nl/ssi/research_program/spin_and/opto-magnetism/
On playing around with the 7.2volt Dremel with the magnet attached I found that if I spin it next to this fish pump coil with U-shaped ferrite core at 20krpm I get about 172 volts 3milliamps. A Computer transformer gave me about 24 volts 450uamps on primary. Got me thinking of how to convert the Dremel into a small battery powered turbo generator. At 300-600 rpm I barely get anything out of these coils.
@hansvonlieven
No, I don't think that you will get the same effect if you leave the magnet out. I believe the effect occurs because the magnet's field is disrupted and then restored. If there was no magnet, you should not get any significant current if you are crossing at the midpoint of the coil. If there is no magnet and you move away from the midpoint of the coil, there will be a flux imbalance which will translate into current, but the current will come at a price.
However, one might be able to achieve greater efficiencies by having the coil(s) on a soft iron core or laminated core, but still using a magnet or magnets. Refer back to my first diagram, and imagine that the coils are on iron cores with a magnet between them. Or, see my second diagram and imagine that the coil is on a soft iron core with magnets on either end.
This is important, I will repeat, "see my second diagram and imagine that the coil is on a soft iron core with magnets on either end."
I think that that may give the highest efficiency. Larger rotor magnets will easily be able to warp the field of the iron core, and as they pass by, the magnets on the ends of the coil will reestablish the field, while the coil collects significant power fron the flux changes... all without any Lenz drag.
Hi hans ,
first I have to apologize - especially to BEP - that I can not fetch this information in english because this book wich I discovered a year ago does only exist in german language and is dealing with the life of Prof. Ehrenhaft who was an Austrian scientist and contemporary of Einstein.
Now , concerning Light and magentic fields, Prof Ehrenhaft discovered this way back in 1949 in vienna and it was presented to the public at a conference in July/August 1949 ( 400 guests from different countries eg Schrödiger, Hayek )
@hans : read the whole book, it is fascinating . Here are the relavant pages :
http://books.google.com/books?id=W8GVSqSvSTYC&pg=PA103&hl=de&sig=6cLHW0hC6eu7LxhthDcYGzct54w#PPP1,M2 (http://books.google.com/books?id=W8GVSqSvSTYC&pg=PA103&hl=de&sig=6cLHW0hC6eu7LxhthDcYGzct54w#PPP1,M2)
page 32, 98, 100, 119,126 and 134
Thank you BEP for this Link, now this makes the puzzle sort of more complete
Best Regards
Kator01
Apology? None required, as I can tell.
The book is a very interesting read. I was stumbling, at first but I understand enough to be amazed this work has not progressed much more.
Quote from: jkgulick on February 05, 2009, 05:05:01 PM
I ran across a really obscure website a really long time ago that featured an inventor who had built a number of overunity generators that were quite small and output power in the 10-50 kW range (maybe > 100 kW, it was a long time ago). They were dead simple, and I don't remember ever hearing a word about them anywhere else. The website was very obscure and almost completely all images and I haven't been able to ever find it again. The inventor claimed interest by several governments, but that is all I remember about the facts surrounding it. However, I do remember the device design.
The idea is simple. He had a rotor with axial magnets that he spun with a small high-rpm drive motor. He had additional magnets positioned perpendicularly to the the rotor magnets such that the rotor magnets passed by the armature magnets through their Bloch walls (the middle of a magnet, basically). Because the rotor magnets passed by the armature magnets through their Bloch walls, he found that there was no significant drag on the rotor, and it could be kept at a very high rpm (6000-7000?) with very little input power.
The armature magnets, however were significantly affected by the flux of the rotor magnets, and he was able to remove very significant amounts of power from windings on each end of the armature magnets. I believe he said that he used 8 or 10 gauge wire for the output coil on the armature magnets and this allowed for outputs of somewhere around 50 kW with 8 armature magnets (16 output coils). I also believe that he was using low field strength magnets like Alnico or ferrites.
If this design is valid, then it is one of the easiest and simplest ways to realize very significant overunity power production. I have attached a diagram of what I remember. I would appreciate your feedback and consideration.
This appears for all intents and purposes to be a version of Tom Beardens recreation of the Adams Motor. You may want to look at this and his MEG aka
a Motionless Electromagnetic Generator at his website at http://www.cheniere.org/
Very good idea indeed and simple too.
Perhaps you could find that site in wayback machine or similar.
On the Bloch Wall Generator: I can conceive of such a thing although it would not be quite as simple a design as in the diagram. Whereas Mr. Bearden and Mr. Adams have indeed done marvelous things in and with their accomplishments; they appear to have only utilized 50% of the energy potential available by their use of only 1/2 of the full magnetic potential in their designs. A full utilization of the complete magnetic forces available in a permanent magnet or electromagnet for that matter should yield equal amounts of both + & - cold current/voltage which may then be concerted into + & - current /voltage of the contemporary type. for practical matters we may refer to as hot current/voltage.
This is the real deal...
can you expand on your comment? page one contained a lot of scattered/related thoughts, so are you saying post #1 is the 'real deal' or something else? thanks.
Quote from: armagdn03 on July 14, 2009, 01:40:23 PM
This is the real deal...
tak
A deformed magnetic field creates an EMF, no matter how it is created. There are many generator configurations where geometry circumvents Lenz law.
Hello Kator01. I liked your references to Dr Ehrenhafts works. You will find a lot of his work at http://www.aip.org/history/ead/20070151.html Note the restricted use of this material and the qualifications for access to the material. Maybe you can find it elsewhere with fewer restrictions to access.
Any developments on this thread?
Quote from: jadaro2600 on December 07, 2009, 12:31:00 AM
Any developments on this thread?
Well, I can at least say what doesn't work.
An iron core with magnets on each end does not work.
I used an iron core 50mm long by 25mm dia, and 25mm by 6mm magnets.
A 280mm rotor with 24 NSNS magnets around.
Findings:
Just the two 200 turn each, air core coil generates a voltage...4.16 volts
Just a plain iron core generates a voltage....8.1 volts
Core with magnets... 7,15 volts
Conclusions:
The core with the magnets attached generated less wattage than did the plain core. 2.5 watts for the core/magnets versus 3 watts for the plain core.
Lenz was apparent, difficult for me to measure in/out at these small levels but approximately 2.4 watts additional for the prime mover as against 2,5 watts output.
Ron P
The clamp on is measuring .52 amps (120V AC line)
The voltmeter shows 4.34 volts AC
The ammeter shows .6 amps (2.6 watts)
Try to find a old hair clipper the ones with a big coil in it ...
I-ron.....are you THE "Ron"....that made the new rotor for Thane? ( thought youre work looked familiar)
the only thing i can see in your setup thats different from the diagram......is that you have your coils/magnet combo.....at the side of the rotor....as opposed to the edge of the rotot...as is shown in the diagram........dont know if this would make a difference.....just thought i would point it out
Yup, it is I.
That is my "standard' RV test bed but not the Thane rotor in this picture. Changing the drawing to axial should have no effect. What is different from the initial drawing is this is modification from a later post where it was proposed to use a core to separate the magnets.
What I note in the above experiment is the windings can not be directly in line with the rotating magnet as it will generate a potential with the usual lenz reaction.
Anyway, thanks for the comeback
Ron
[/quote]
I-ron.....are you THE "Ron"....that made the new rotor for Thane? ( thought youre work looked familiar)
the only thing i can see in your setup thats different from the diagram......is that you have your coils/magnet combo.....at the side of the rotor....as opposed to the edge of the rotot...as is shown in the diagram........dont know if this would make a difference.....just thought i would point it out
[/quote]
Quote from: i_ron on July 09, 2010, 10:25:02 PM
What I note in the above experiment is the windings can not be directly in line with the rotating magnet as it will generate a potential with the usual lenz reaction.
OK, I did one more experiment with a 1/2 inch by 3 inch magnet and a sniffer coil. Max induction is just outboard of the rotating magnet width but not terribly impressive... .008 volts per turn.
Ron
Found a source for long Alnico's
...on eBay - seller barefootnit
http://www.ebay.com/sch/barefootnit/m.html?_nkw=round+bar&_sacat=0&_odkw=&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3911.c0.m270.l1313 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/barefootnit/m.html?_nkw=round+bar&_sacat=0&_odkw=&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3911.c0.m270.l1313)
(up to 12" length)
ron
I made another simple test:
wound 2 coils on selenoid - the primary is bidiler coil and secondary is 2x bifiler connected in series(all wires are same lenght/size) and sits between magnet/primary coil. The selenoid has neodyium magnet attached (it sticks with one of poles while other pole pulls away) to one end of secondary coil. While pulsing with 555 timer in coil resonance frequency, I managed to get constant oscillation with neon lightbulb lighting up on 1 of seconddary coil's wires and another lightbulb wire on hand. The voltage was amplified ~50 times while amperage was very weak.. Here is oscilloscope shot (blue is 555, the red is output of secondary coil):
Hi T,
Would you mind posting a pic, or even better, a hand drawing, of the coil and magnet so I can have a go at replicating?
It is so hard trying to image how you have the coil setup
Thanks, Gary
Quote from: garrypm on October 06, 2011, 02:10:43 PM
Hi T,
Would you mind posting a pic, or even better, a hand drawing, of the coil and magnet so I can have a go at replicating?
It is so hard trying to image how you have the coil setup
Thanks, Gary
The idea is to make electromagnet with opposite pole to neodyium magnet. So L1 moves bloch wall inside of L2 when powered. The half phase is your power the second half (where's BEMF) is augmented by magnet (possible to make OU?)
Ok, here's circuit. It is very simple:
Thanks T
Quote from: garrypm on October 06, 2011, 04:15:14 PM
Thanks T
Just in my setup there's npn transistor but should work with pnp too. With trial and error experience you will find out what works best. The pulsing electromagnet is your analogy to moving magnet in generator and might remind Muller dynamo, just solid state in this case :) Make short pulses as possible just to power L1 (longer impulse time just wastes energy). Also you can try various electromagnet magnetic strengths and can take energy out of coil right after your pulse is off then put into caps over double 1N4007 diode bridge for their lower resistance. With precise timing you should get best results.
Good luck!