@All
I have been requested by @otto to start this new thread with the above title and to include his following schematic drawing. For those that are starting to do some testing with tubes, this will be a thread to both expand and post your ideas in relation to the workings of the TPU. Thanks @otto.
wattsup
Hello all,
@wattsup
thanks a lot.
Steven Marks words about how to build a tube power supply:
"I have found that the best trick you can do is to run a 0,01 orange drop ( I didnt understand this until I googled orange drop caps) across the high voltage output from the xmer (transformer) first thing, then run your high voltage through a SS full wave rectifier into a 100 microfarad or so electrolytic cap with low ESR (??) and another 0,01 in paralel, the first before you hit the plates of the tube rectifier which are wired together.
Oh, run the tube output into another 100 microfarad and run a 0,25 poly in...
Only parallel good stuff comes out...."
There is maybe more but I hope I showed you the most important.
The shematic showes you how I understand his words. OK, maybe the anodes are connected together but its not the point.
Do you see something strange in this schematic?? No?? Of course something is "wrong".
We are with this tube rectifying a already rectified voltage. THIS MAKES NO SENCE:
Why would SM do this??
THE RECTIFIER TUBE IS NOT USED TO RECTIFY ANYTHING!!
This tube IS the connection between the surrounding aether and the TPU. And if you want a working TPU you have to build the tube power supply as he said.
I want to say that I maybe failed a little bit or a lot with my drawing. Its to see and try.
Otto
To perform "magic" on the electrons
Hello all,
@Mannix
yes!! The magic is in the plate capacitor 10nF and the cathode capacitor 250nF in connection with this fantastic 5U4 tube!!!
I suppose that a certain voltage (500V - 0 - 500V ??) they will do something special. Just a guess,ha,ha. Or not??
Now its totally and finally clear why nobody had success!!
SM, forgive us, we didnt listen and read your words!!!
Otto
Quote from: otto on March 31, 2009, 02:07:43 AM
This tube IS the connection between the surrounding aether and the TPU. And if you want a working TPU you have to build the tube power supply as he said.
And why does it work with solid state controllers too?
A.
because the inventor said so
Hello all,
yes, Im also thinking how SM made this with SS but I have first to see the magic with my tubes so I can really understand how and why.
Now, lets think what we know:
the TPU output has sinewaves with kicks on top of them.
This means we need kicks and sine waves in our TPUs. The kicks are made in our well known manner with MOSFETs.
Now the sines: when I connect 1 end of my high voltage to the copper core then I have the needed sine waves and depending on the frequencies used I have the needed TPU output but still no "magic" to say so.
As always Im in a big trouble. My heating transformer has a 6,3V heating and the 5U4 needs only 5V. The next is that we MAYBE need 500V - 0 - 500V as the plate voltage and my transformer delivers me only 300V - 0 - 300V.
Any ideas? Dont say that I should surch in junkyards because this is impossible.
A hand made transformer? Yeeeees, but money, money, money.....ha,ha.
Otto
@otto
I am putting a photo of an .01 orange drop cap. I did not know they were called this but must say I have been using them for the last 2 months with my FTPU after I blew a few small lytics. They make a good pop. lol
The photo came from here;
http://guitarpartsresource.com/electrical_capsorange.htm
Also, here is a pdf on Low ESR (equivalent series resistance) capacitors.
http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/uploads/papers_application/A0A0A86888CE4C0591627D18FF09455A.pdf
Hello all,
@wattsup
thanks.
I can only say that Im happy to share my work because maybe, just maybe, someone of you will have success. As posted before, I dont have the needed transformer and about caps with low ESR I can only dream!!!
So, people, use my informations and finally start to work.
Showing you my problems I ONLY wanted to say that if you wait for me to do the job it will take a time until I have solved this problems.
Otto
Quote from: Mannix on March 31, 2009, 06:37:32 AM
because the inventor said so
Then the tube is not the secret, if it were so, then the solid state device should not work
A.
Quote from: otto on March 31, 2009, 07:56:05 AM
Hello all,
@wattsup
thanks.
I can only say that Im happy to share my work because maybe, just maybe, someone of you will have success. As posted before, I dont have the needed transformer and about caps with low ESR I can only dream!!!
So, people, use my informations and finally start to work.
Showing you my problems I ONLY wanted to say that if you wait for me to do the job it will take a time until I have solved this problems.
Otto
low esr in flash camera
The tube amp starts a chain reaction (catalyst)
The secret is what is taking place in the collectors.
A tube AMP is needed for each frequency. When unit is switched over to all SS, the SS is made to mimic the frequency reproduction of a tube AMP.
Without a tube AMP, actually three of them, you will never see catalyst, even with the right circuit potential and litz, which no one here gets yet, because they won't look at the frequency's journey inside of the loop collector.
Oh, P.S. The secret is not found in HV either. It is found in HOW DIFFERENT frequency's react with one another. Nothing that can't be found with some good research. And then how they react traveling, opposing one another. You can start with GK's Heterodyne thread, CTG Labs transformer experiment, and then go to my thread discussing lightning and then move on the circuit potential, while at the same time, re reading and studying everything SM said! LOL
Quote from: otto on March 31, 2009, 02:07:43 AM
... into a 100 microfarad or so electrolytic cap with low ESR (??) and another 0,01 in paralel,
Hi Otto,
If you question marked the ESR what it may be, then it is the short form of Equivalent Series Resistance of (mainly) electrolytic capacitors. It simply means how lossy they are, low ESR means much less loss i.e. heat would develop inside the body of the capacitor. On the other hand, with low ESR a capacitor can supply higher peak load current than a normal because the lower inner resistance (which is also frequency dependent) is less of the limiting factor.
Electrolytic capacitors with low ESR values normally cost higher than 'normal' electrolytic caps of otherwise same ratings.
There are off-the-shelf ESR tester instruments, here is a home-made-able practical circuit if anyone is more interested: http://members.shaw.ca/swstuff/esrmeter.html
rgds, Gyula
EDIT I noticed wattsup mentioned in the meantime what ESR is, ok.
Quote from: otto on March 31, 2009, 06:58:37 AM
Hello all,
yes, Im also thinking how SM made this with SS but I have first to see the magic with my tubes so I can really understand how and why.
Now, lets think what we know:
the TPU output has sinewaves with kicks on top of them.
This means we need kicks and sine waves in our TPUs. The kicks are made in our well known manner with MOSFETs.
Now the sines: when I connect 1 end of my high voltage to the copper core then I have the needed sine waves and depending on the frequencies used I have the needed TPU output but still no "magic" to say so.
As always Im in a big trouble. My heating transformer has a 6,3V heating and the 5U4 needs only 5V. The next is that we MAYBE need 500V - 0 - 500V as the plate voltage and my transformer delivers me only 300V - 0 - 300V.
Any ideas? Dont say that I should surch in junkyards because this is impossible.
A hand made transformer? Yeeeees, but money, money, money.....ha,ha.
Otto
How do you think the TPU works? What is the basic mechanism that makes it work?
Quote from: Bruce_TPU on March 31, 2009, 08:57:15 AM
...
The secret is what is taking place in the collectors.
...
Oh, P.S. The secret is not found in HV either. It is found in HOW DIFFERENT frequency's react with one another.
...
The "collector" is just a piece of wire shorted by a resistance.
The secret is the effect that HV has on the aether.
Quote from: Chef on March 31, 2009, 09:42:09 AM
It's very easy. You just haveto turn it ON, and it works. :P
Or maybe, but I am not sure:
"X,Y,Z = 20 MHz
A = 60 MHz
TIME IT+PULSE IT+ROTATE IT+COLLECT IT: Spherical Aether Shock waves"
8)
Oh yeah! That's right! ;D
Tubes present the ION cloud and HV.
Moray states microwatts using copper.
Bolt: 'You can transmit a longitudinal wave through an ion cloud unresisted'.
'To pump scalar its 90 degrees offset to M field so coils are perendicular.'
The loop must made to appear massive. Effective aperture.
SM
"I have designed some amps using MOSFET , etc.
which sound very much like tube amps.
However when I want to design a new amp I always start with tubes and when I get them perfected I move on the MOSFETS.."
The reason is the HARMONICS that a tube amp NATURALLY puts out. OR a SS built amp that sounds like a tube amp, in other words, has the SAME HARMONIC components. They have developed some of these now, I have read about them. But I would still suggest using VHF Triodes for color television, three of them to start with. Once you understand what is transpiring within the collectors, the creation of hundreds of frequency's, combining to one, you understand why the tubes are needed to build a SM style Power Unit.
"REMEMBER, all of that noise and hash in your solid state amplifier is in the output signal !
Now tell me? What do you think is happening inside the extremely sensitive torrid generator
when you use solid state devices to attempt to create the required precise control frequencies to make catalyst and produce power???
By the way, your Solid State amplifier generates so much noise that if you measure the mains wiring you can see noise from YOUR amplifier actually getting back through the transformer and into the mains input wiring!!!
Understand what perfect frequency is."
That is why Bolt suggested building the ad826 class 'A' amp. I did. I got results. It has excellant 'Signal to noise ratio'.
--giantkiller.
SM could have used a tube oscillator of some sort fed through the saturable reactors. With their high impedance, he probably did not have to worry about directional biasing, as it could not go back through the tube.
If this is the case, you direct the field and use SS devices. Of course you would never know this if you had not started with tubes.
Yep. Damn good reason to start with tubes.
Hello all,
@Grumpy
I started to wright how I see a working TPU but it has no sence because I would need a lot of guessings.
What I want is to start a "race" in my collectors. Do do this I have to measure the lenght of my collectors. I want to tap into this collectors at exact points. In this way have the particles the lowest speed on the start point until they arrive to the 2. point where another frequency is added. This 2 frequencies are then travelling to the 3. point in the collectors where a 3. frequencie is added....when we have a real race in our collectors then we have done a very good job because then we "only" have to use our controls.
I will try to start such a race with 12V from the power supply, then 24V, then with my loved 5U4 tube.
I want first to use 12V because Im learning and I want to see the differencies between 12V, 24V and a tube.
Yesterday I had luck and removed 4 turns from my heating transformer so I have now 5,8V ( without a load) for the heating of my 5U4 tube. This was a f...g job not to damage the other turns of this heating coil.
Otto
I thought I do a little reseach and see what I can find about tubes.
There are a lot of fad stuff because of marketting of valve amplifiers. Just a lot of hype.
However, I have come across a mine of useful information at:
http://www.clarisonus.com/Archives/
I propose you should copy it all.
Please come back and share any usfull information which might light our path to making the TPU.
Quote from: otto on April 01, 2009, 01:11:06 AM
Hello all,
@Grumpy
I started to wright how I see a working TPU but it has no sence because I would need a lot of guessings.
What I want is to start a "race" in my collectors. Do do this I have to measure the lenght of my collectors. I want to tap into this collectors at exact points. In this way have the particles the lowest speed on the start point until they arrive to the 2. point where another frequency is added. This 2 frequencies are then travelling to the 3. point in the collectors where a 3. frequencie is added....when we have a real race in our collectors then we have done a very good job because then we "only" have to use our controls.
I will try to start such a race with 12V from the power supply, then 24V, then with my loved 5U4 tube.
I want first to use 12V because Im learning and I want to see the differencies between 12V, 24V and a tube.
Yesterday I had luck and removed 4 turns from my heating transformer so I have now 5,8V ( without a load) for the heating of my 5U4 tube. This was a f...g job not to damage the other turns of this heating coil.
Otto
This is just a suggestion, but with a multifrequency TPU, maybe you should start with only one collector and bifilar controls over it and two frequencies. If you can not find the effect with two, you will never find it with three and if you cannot see the effect on a single collector, you will never see it on three collectors. So, start with something simple.
Try this little test. It will help you to understand the aether better and might assist you when tuning.
Fill up a bucket, sink, or tub with water. A lake is better, if you are near one and it is very calm.
Drop a small object into the center of the container of water. The object is your pulse. The ripples of water are the response of the aether to the pulse. Notice that the initial repsonse is very fast, water may even break free and rise above the surface. This is the shockwave. Watch the ripples closely. The shockwave is followed by smaller waves as the surface of the water oscillates. This is the aether oscillation that everyone seeks to see in their coils. If the ripples encounter and object, they flow around, or are reflected by the object. By tuning the second pulse slightly behind the first pulse, you are catching this shockwave as it reaches the second coil and then you pulse and increase the wave velocity or amplitude or both. If you miss the initial wavefront, you can still catch one of the smaller waves behind the intial wave. If you pulse the intial wavefront "dead on", the converted power will be phenomenal, so you tune deliberately off this be a very slight phase angle (which may be translated into a small degree of time).
The reason you can use this configuration (the bifilar wires an two frequencies) is that the pulse excites the aether into a brief oscillation, but this oscillation is preceeded by an initial travelling wave - just like when a transmission line is struck by lightning. This is also why you can use a variety of switching devices. You do not have to switch in picoseconds as there is plenty of power in the smaller waves and more than you need in the intitial wavefront.
With three frequencies, you spread the squeezing effect out over a larger area of space and you squeeze more of the hose with each pulse. It is exaclty like squeezing a hose and this was SMs best clue.
With a single collector, you can only squeeze a certain number of times due to the circumference and pulse requirements. If you connect additional collectors, will the pulse requirements change because the aether is moving? This probably would not matter that much and the same pulses can be used for each collector, so you can wind the collectors with the same bifilar wires.
In Tesla's initial research, there is no way his spark gap could have quenched completely at high frequencies. This would result in a partially conduction between pulses and this is the same as a DC bias. Now the energy can feedback to the power source and this is probably what destroyed the generator in Colorado, and probably why SM suggested tubes for intial experiments. I have witnessed this feedback and it is like a clap of lightning without a flash. So, try biasing the two frequencies with a 100vDC or more and switch the pulses over the top of the DC. This way you similate the non-quenching gap and there can not be a pulse reversal below the zero line since it is biased above it.
If you want old tube manuals and such, just visit www.pmillett.com and at the top is
a link to books in pdf on line. All kinds of stuff there on tubes.
thaelin
Hello all,
@Grumpy
nice post but ....
OK, we are talking about tubes, water and SS.
We drop a object into the water and see the ripples. This are the harmonics of the shockwave. This is OK when I use MOSFETs but not with tubes. When we use tubes the signals are clear without harmonics. So we have only the shockwave, no ripples. Thats perfect!!!
With MOSFETs we see that the signals, kicks, are feeded back into the power supply and the voltage of this power supply rises. Thats bad because this means that the particles are moving forewards AND in the other direction.
Not with tubes. There is no feedback to the power supply. There is only a foreward moving of the particles. Again, thats perfect!!
Otto
(I do not intend to offend anyone)
All interesting but...there is an already proven solution: just make use of my TPU 10.7: It does exactly what you are searching :) as offered by dfro time agò.
Roberto
Quote from: otto on April 02, 2009, 01:03:50 AM
Hello all,
@Grumpy
nice post but ....
OK, we are talking about tubes, water and SS.
We drop a object into the water and see the ripples. This are the harmonics of the shockwave. This is OK when I use MOSFETs but not with tubes. When we use tubes the signals are clear without harmonics. So we have only the shockwave, no ripples. Thats perfect!!!
With MOSFETs we see that the signals, kicks, are feeded back into the power supply and the voltage of this power supply rises. Thats bad because this means that the particles are moving forewards AND in the other direction.
Not with tubes. There is no feedback to the power supply. There is only a foreward moving of the particles. Again, thats perfect!!
Otto
hence the use of the "gatekeeper" circuit with saturable reactors
Ev Gray used a tube diode.
Hello all,
@Roberto
I deeply respect your work and knowledge but Im not satisfied anymore to work with Amperes from the power supply to get the coils work.
The ECD worked with 12V/3A or so, to light a bulb.
I made coils that could light a bulb with 24/1A from the power supply.
A time ago I could light a bulb with 300V/0,4A from the power supply.
OK, thats all logic.
Now I want to light a bulb with 10kV or 20kV. Yes, its possible of course.
I also know that we can have a "race" in our coils with any voltage because I had it once. With "race" I mean a runaway. I did it with 12V.
Of course I have now nice and clear signals but I dont care because tubes are...hmmm....totally different.
@Grumpy
a lot of really clever inventors used tubes. Diodes are my favorits or triodes without the gate or without the heating or,or....a lot of combinations.
Otto
Quote from: ronotte on April 02, 2009, 06:48:50 AM
(I do not intend to offend anyone)
All interesting but...there is an already proven solution: just make use of my TPU 10.7: It does exactly what you are searching :) as offered by dfro time agò.
Roberto
Roberto's tpu 10.7 is very close to the correct design.
Well, I think that it is the right time where we have not to change our mind too often. It is my own matured opinion that the 10.7 has been very, very near to one of the many possible solutions. The issue with it, like correctly explicited by my personal friend Otto, has been only with it's current angry design... as it had really shown many of the effects we all have been searching for. NOW THIS IS TO BE CONSIDERED OVER ;)...thanks to the combined effort of several smart techies working for similar design. This means that soon, just after completion of some interesting work I am doing with another project, I think I will open here a thread where to show the TPU V. 10.7 progress and soliciting your duplication & help.
Big CIAO to all
Roberto
Quote from: Grumpy on April 02, 2009, 09:16:42 AM
hence the use of the "gatekeeper" circuit with saturable reactors
@Grumpy,
Do you have a link to that circuit?
Quote from: ronotte on April 03, 2009, 07:07:26 AM
Well, I think that it is the right time where we have not to change our mind too often. It is my own matured opinion that the 10.7 has been very, very near to one of the many possible solutions. The issue with it, like correctly explicited by my personal friend Otto, has been only with it's current angry design... as it had really shown many of the effects we all have been searching for. NOW THIS IS TO BE CONSIDERED OVER ;)...thanks to the combined effort of several smart techies working for similar design. This means that soon, just after completion of some interesting work I am doing with another project, I think I will open here a thread where to show the TPU V. 10.7 progress and soliciting your duplication & help.
Big CIAO to all
Roberto
@ronotte
Did you form an idea of why the 10.7 wanted to run at 22kHz?
BEP
Hi Bep,
nice to hear from you again. About that value (22 kHz) I am not so sure it was the last one found (I am going to re-check my own lenghty documentation)...anyway I do remember that I did an 'inverse' evaluation. I mean that I found the natural 'resonance' of the coil and than...as it was too much high I just resonate it lower by adding a parallel tank cap (...just like dfro suggested!). But I do remember as well that the most important effect found was the use of first & second harmonics that being developed from asyncrhonous sources did indeed auto-align with also the 3rd freq and then sum-up producing in output that beatiful '3 Sisters' almost sinusoidal waveform with lot of power available.
Roberto
Yes.
The important part for me was realizing we should avoid generating harmonics from each source but have them appear as 'near' harmonics to each other.
And the understanding that magneto acoustic effect does not need to come from a ferrous like core. Having a magnetic field from a conductor can produce the same effects as a ferrous core - only more interesting, faster, and movable.
Hoping to be back at the bench this weekend after a very long trip!
BEP
Hello all,
the last few days I was working on a tube power supply like SM told us. Its fine working, bla,bla.... not to bother you.
In short:
when the power supply is switched off I see the electrolytic cap slowly discharging to 0V. Slowly because I dont use a bleeder resistor.
But!!
When the cap is totally discharged it starts again to charge!
So I diconnected to 230V from the wall. Still charging. I disconnected the oscillators. Still charging.
Then I took only the 5U4 tube and connected this cap to the tube and to the ground. No meters, nothing. Just the 5U4 + my cap. This was one of the reasons I bought this tube because the same happens with my EZ 81 tube.
After 20 hours I measured 10V on the electrolytic cap.
The setup is something like in the Tesla patent .....with the copper plate in the air.
Yeees, I know an antenna......
No wonder SM was working for years on the TPU. Im somehow sure he saw a lot more but Im not long working with tubes.
Otto
Thank you Otto. Does this mean your work with tubes is now concluded?
Hello all,
@AM
this means that I want to continue in my work with tubes. You cant imagine how weird they work.
A time ago I wrote a friend that nobody knows how tubes CAN work. Im sure SM saw also what Im now exploring. And I know that a lot of surprises are waiting for me.
Is this somehow useful for my TPU work? I think yes. Maybe I have "discovered" a new core material. Who knows??
Now dont think I would stop the work on my TPU and waste my time with .... something that has nothing to do with a TPU. First the TPU and then ...
Now I have to wait again for my next 5U4 tube. A month or so.
Otto
Hello Otto,
Would like to mention that this electrolytic capacitor recharging effect happens when you charge up a cap to any voltage then you discharge it: after a certain time the cap regains some voltage all by itself, without any wires connected.
The higher voltage you charge it up the higher the regained voltage will be but this is not linear of course.
This afternoon I charged up a Siemens 150uF 385V DC rated electrolytic cap to 300V from a Variac, then discharged it via a 2kOhm resistor to under 0.1V, then I let the capacitor alone and after about 10 minutes I measured 8.3V across it and after about 30 minutes I measured 10.14V across it. (I used a digital multimeter with 10 MegaOhm inner resistance.)
I can only explain this phenomena as a kind of electret effect inside the dielectric material of the capacitor, as if it would try to rearrange itself to the molecular setup the huge electric field strength (the 300V) earlier caused/arranged in it.
Another member here (nul-points) also reported a voltage regain effect in his capacitor when tested charge transfer in switched capacitors, see here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4419.msg99289#msg99289 He used Supercaps in his tests, I used normal electrolytic cap in my test here.
Do you think the effect you have described below is different from what I am referring to now?
Thanks, Gyula
Quote from: otto on April 06, 2009, 04:20:31 AM
Hello all,
the last few days I was working on a tube power supply like SM told us. Its fine working, bla,bla.... not to bother you.
In short:
when the power supply is switched off I see the electrolytic cap slowly discharging to 0V. Slowly because I dont use a bleeder resistor.
But!!
When the cap is totally discharged it starts again to charge!
So I diconnected to 230V from the wall. Still charging. I disconnected the oscillators. Still charging.
Then I took only the 5U4 tube and connected this cap to the tube and to the ground. No meters, nothing. Just the 5U4 + my cap. This was one of the reasons I bought this tube because the same happens with my EZ 81 tube.
After 20 hours I measured 10V on the electrolytic cap.
The setup is something like in the Tesla patent .....with the copper plate in the air.
Yeees, I know an antenna......
No wonder SM was working for years on the TPU. Im somehow sure he saw a lot more but Im not long working with tubes.
Otto
Quote from: gyulasun on April 06, 2009, 12:33:44 PM
Would like to mention that this electrolytic capacitor recharging effect happens when you charge up a cap to any voltage then you discharge it: after a certain time the cap regains some voltage all by itself, without any wires connected.
The higher voltage you charge it up the higher the regained voltage will be but this is not linear of course.
This afternoon I charged up a Siemens 150uF 385V DC rated electrolytic cap to 300V from a Variac, then discharged it via a 2kOhm resistor to under 0.1V, then I let the capacitor alone and after about 10 minutes I measured 8.3V across it and after about 30 minutes I measured 10.14V across it. (I used a digital multimeter with 10 MegaOhm inner resistance.)
I can only explain this phenomena as a kind of electret effect inside the dielectric material of the capacitor, as if it would try to rearrange itself to the molecular setup the huge electric field strength (the 300V) earlier caused/arranged in it.
this is called the Casimir effect and the Casimir-Polder force.
it is more noticiable in electrolytic capacitor, because of their dielectric materials interactions.
compression of the dielectric materials under Casimir force and decompression, over time.
ex: oil going back into the paper structure that is separating the plates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_force
@TheNOP
Thanks for this explanation, the only missing item from the link is the effect of the DC voltage applied.
So I just did some search since then and found these further explanations:
http://www.rubycon.co.jp/kr/products/alumi/pdf/RecoveryVoltage.pdf
this mentions space charge polarization taking place in a longer time than atomic / dielectric polarization, this is the cause of the reappearing voltage.
Thanks, Gyula
EDIT: further search revealed the effect is called capacitor "soakage" and a very good link is here:
http://www.national.com/rap/Application/0,1570,28,00.html
@otto
Just short the capacitor for about 5 minutes, That usually kills them for me and you see not voltage rise. Then connect it to your tube to see if it will rise. I have been trying to find the circuit someone posted, I think it was @wings that put up a ambient energy recovery circuit working with 1 wire input. I built and tested one and it works. I wanted to show it to you because your tube is also a rectifier and this circuit was using four diodes and four capacitors. I am sure the circuit would be useful to know where to add some small capacitor to the tube and see if voltage will rise on his bigger capacitor. But I have looked and looked and cannot find which thread????????
Quote from: wattsup on April 06, 2009, 07:37:50 PM
@otto
Just short the capacitor for about 5 minutes, That usually kills them for me and you see not voltage rise. Then connect it to your tube to see if it will rise. I have been trying to find the circuit someone posted, I think it was @wings that put up a ambient energy recovery circuit working with 1 wire input. I built and tested one and it works. I wanted to show it to you because your tube is also a rectifier and this circuit was using four diodes and four capacitors. I am sure the circuit would be useful to know where to add some small capacitor to the tube and see if voltage will rise on his bigger capacitor. But I have looked and looked and cannot find which thread????????
hi sir wattsup good day ! ;D
is this what your looking of ::)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQeG4Qfi0YQ
tito >:( ;D
Hello all,
@gyulasun
there is no recharging effect because I have charged this cap the last time at Saturday, shorted it a lot of times and I see always the charging effect. There is nothing to rearrange inside this cap.
But I saw that this works only with my 50 + 50uF/450V cap. Its a big aluminium cap. I tried a lot of other caps without success.
I found the Tesla patent I surched: Utiltzation of Radiant Energy NO. 685 957
I think I have this effect. Maybe I saw this schematic with a detector diode between the plate in the air and the cap??
Otto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NUbsQt-G9U&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=C2CEECFD938FD494&index=7
around 24 minutes
great lecture !!
An interesting free energy machine using electrostatic fields, which was patented, was the Hyde motor. Just like in the lecture, the energy is 1/2 e E^2 x volume between the plates, and Hyde includes another plate inbetween the existing plates of a capacitor and one of the new two capacitors is used in an external circuit so it can dump it's energy, then the plate that was inserted is removed, and the other original plate still has it's charge on it, and it attracts new charges on the other plate that now is unshielded. The trick? removed the middle plate sideways, so his whole assembly is in a rotating sort of an arangment.
anyway, that's what came to mind when I saw this lecture, made me remember my classes I had in electromagnetics years ago.
EM
QUESTION:
Why use a tube to rectify a silicon rectified voltage?
ANSWER:
Simple, as a highly efficient voltage smoothing device.
Put an AC signal through a bridge and scope it. You will soon see what I am talking about. Noisy DC.
Paul Andrulis
Quote from: pauldude000 on May 02, 2009, 02:48:18 AM
QUESTION:
Why use a tube to rectify a silicon rectified voltage?
ANSWER:
Simple, as a highly efficient voltage smoothing device.
Put an AC signal through a bridge and scope it. You will soon see what I am talking about. Noisy DC.
Paul Andrulis
I've been waiting a long time to see that question posed about that SM comment.
Your answer sounds like it may be partially correct. Cleanup of the signal? Probably. I think that statement was more to make us look at the fact that the emissions of the heater are added to the anode and what happens when that goes on.
Voltage of the heater added to the plate.....
Increased velocity ('voltage' if you like) of the circuit current....
Quote from: BEP on May 02, 2009, 03:51:22 PM
I've been waiting a long time to see that question posed about that SM comment.
Your answer sounds like it may be partially correct. Cleanup of the signal? Probably. I think that statement was more to make us look at the fact that the emissions of the heater are added to the anode and what happens when that goes on.
Voltage of the heater added to the plate.....
Increased velocity ('voltage' if you like) of the circuit current....
I understand in theory.
It is the principle Tesla used to talk about, namely that with a primary DC current, an AC component can be superimposed and travel seemingly unconnected to the DC current, so long as each signal has isolated grounds. Technically, this should work in either direction. A current seeks equilibrium with its own source, if allowed.
A person should be able to achieve interesting results this way, so long as the signals can indeed remain separated.
Paul Andrulis
@BEP
I have a question for you. First, I do not know enough about tubes. I wish to make that clear, as I do not know if this would even work.
What would happen if you made a high voltage but current limited weak AC signal, such as 120v 60hz @.1A or ~12W, then use a tube to couple it to a high current low voltage source, such as 5V @ 6A or ~30W using a common ground???
Would not the relatively weak power higher voltage signal oscillate the much lower voltage? Could it be that simple? Would it even work? Any ideas?
Paul Andrulis
@all
I asked BEP as I trust his knowledge. However, I give to all my reasoning behind the question.
It has long been known that a weak signal can control a strong signal. But what prompted this idea is actually how the earths magnetosphere reacts to impacts of extremely high speed particles from the sun. They come in, impact the magnetosphere, and actually cause minute resonations to what we would consider a massively strong field.
I wonder if the field of a strong current can be resonated by a weak signal in a similar concept.
Quote from: pauldude000 on May 03, 2009, 01:36:40 AM
@all
I asked BEP as I trust his knowledge. However, I give to all my reasoning behind the question.
It has long been known that a weak signal can control a strong signal. But what prompted this idea is actually how the earths magnetosphere reacts to impacts of extremely high speed particles from the sun. They come in, impact the magnetosphere, and actually cause minute resonations to what we would consider a massively strong field.
I wonder if the field of a strong current can be resonated by a weak signal in a similar concept.
That fits pretty well Paul but to put it into any kind of context,
requires multiple experiments which as I understand, very few are doing
so try panning for gold there!
Quote from: pauldude000 on May 03, 2009, 01:20:10 AM
@BEP
I have a question for you. First, I do not know enough about tubes. I wish to make that clear, as I do not know if this would even work.
What would happen if you made a high voltage but current limited weak AC signal, such as 120v 60hz @.1A or ~12W, then use a tube to couple it to a high current low voltage source, such as 5V @ 6A or ~30W using a common ground???
Would not the relatively weak power higher voltage signal oscillate the much lower voltage? Could it be that simple? Would it even work? Any ideas?
Paul Andrulis
It would take much less power than 12 Watts. What you describe is basic amplifier theory. One exception... a tube would require a higher plate voltage than 5 but you could vary this high current/low voltage by a specified amount or modulate it. Then it is just a matter of how you want to collect that variation - or tap the potential.
Usually done with a coupling RC, LC or transformer.
My interest in tubes with a TPU is fired by that tube type circuit that only uses power for the heater ( http://www.b-kainka.de/bastel87.htm ) . Tie that in as a magnetostrictive oscillator and we may have something. Since these oscillators resonate at the resonate frequency of the core material and not the windings.... well, it could be interesting.
The benefits of such a circuit:
1. SS could not do the same
2. resonate frequency based upon the circumference of the core
3. would require magnets
4. would likely require passing a magnet to kick start it.
5. the only external source of power required would be enough to heat the heater.
A simple experiment is to just apply voltage to a tube heater. With nothing else connected. measure voltage between the heater and plate. The 5U4GB is a good one for this. It has no separate cathode between the heater and plate.
BTW: there are many folks here with more knowledge on tubes than me. I've used them in circuits for years and understand them better than SS but that isn't saying much.
Quote from: BEP on May 03, 2009, 08:42:40 AM
It would take much less power than 12 Watts. What you describe is basic amplifier theory. One exception... a tube would require a higher plate voltage than 5 but you could vary this high current/low voltage by a specified amount or modulate it. Then it is just a matter of how you want to collect that variation - or tap the potential.
Usually done with a coupling RC, LC or transformer.
My interest in tubes with a TPU is fired by that tube type circuit that only uses power for the heater ( http://www.b-kainka.de/bastel87.htm ) . Tie that in as a magnetostrictive oscillator and we may have something. Since these oscillators resonate at the resonate frequency of the core material and not the windings.... well, it could be interesting.
The benefits of such a circuit:
1. SS could not do the same
2. resonate frequency based upon the circumference of the core
3. would require magnets
4. would likely require passing a magnet to kick start it.
5. the only external source of power required would be enough to heat the heater.
A simple experiment is to just apply voltage to a tube heater. With nothing else connected. measure voltage between the heater and plate. The 5U4GB is a good one for this. It has no separate cathode between the heater and plate.
BTW: there are many folks here with more knowledge on tubes than me. I've used them in circuits for years and understand them better than SS but that isn't saying much.
:o
Thank you! Youve removed a stumbling block for me.
Magnetostriction oscillation is a great candidate. It appears as though this technique will yield stable oscillations.
I am curious how you have come to the conclusion that this would require magnet/passing a magnet to kickstart it
Thanks again!!
Nice one BEP!
Quote from: Phantasm on May 03, 2009, 02:01:08 PM
It appears as though this technique will yield stable oscillations.
So stable you will be surprised but expect it to vary with a rhythm if your build works like mine.
Quote
I am curious how you have come to the conclusion that this would require magnet/passing a magnet to kickstart it
On a toroid you will need at least two separate magnetic fields. I suggest on opposite sides of the circle. The mag fields are required for the 'striction' part. Two, so you can have two equal twists of opposite directions (picture a sine-wave - reverse the polarity of one side). More are possible, I suppose.
Depending upon how you cause twisting of the core (magneto-striction), current through the MS metal, vary the magnet fields... Whatever.... you may need an external magnet to temporarily deform one of the fixed fields to cause a change in twist of the MS material. -or- if your mag fields are fixed.. you may chose to change the current going through the MS material.
I think it depends on which TPU you are trying to build.
Be aware my attempt is good at making strange noises and nothing more.
The zero voltage oscillator (regenerative receiver gone super-regen) is interesting but using a dual rectifier - 1 side as radio detector - and the other side (with strange internal coupling to the detector) as an amplifier is more outside the norm than running a tube triode without plate power applied.
I must have done it again....
Did I scare everyone off?
I know I've mentioned the zero volt tube circuits at least once about two years ago. I tried to introduce an MS oscillator a few times. The first long before @EMDevices found those great patents.
@Pese said it was a dead short circuit :D
I'll admit I don't recall posting anything about using dual rectifier tubes as amplifiers. That is an old HAM trick. You just insert a resistance between the filament and common. The normal detected signal modulates the common cathode and varies plate current of the second diode, pretty much what SM was saying in his rectifier story. The results aren't much different from using the grid in a triode. DC is required on the heater. You must tie the heater battery plus or minus to common. One will allow amplification. Tieing the wrong battery terminal will kill the effect.
That alone is the mystery if you don't understand a tube can amplify without plate current.
Quote from: BEP on May 04, 2009, 10:05:07 PM
I must have done it again....
Did I scare everyone off?
No, youre fine - honestly I'm in the same boat that Loner is in... I'm feeling overwhelmed by conflicting perspectives on TPU operation.
My background is not in the EE field. For me, it means even the slightest detail in one of these posts, while plain to the average reader here requires me to read pages and pages online to get the jist of whats being discussed. And thats just the little details.
Ive followed this system, researching everything that is unknown to me, while digesting all of SM's clues and notes. I've forumulated my own understanding of SM's clues to the point where they all seem to make sense in light of my perspective.
Still though I default to the expertice of the users on these forums. In that regard, I've been trying to understand and learn more about the perspectives that have been brought forward under the assumption that my plain interpretations of SM's clues has been a tried and tested failure. I havnt read that this is the case but I assume so since a lot of things go unsaid on these forums :\
On the upside, I'm learning a lot - on the down side, I feel confused and burned out with all the perspectives. I'm dedicated to this project though... I've made it a personal goal to realize this technology. Either way, I learn a lot so I cant really go wrong. At the moment though, I need a break from all this research. In my mind there's no point in trying to learn new perspectives about how a TPU might work if I still havnt tested the old ideas.. So I'm making it a priority to get some testing going.
Frankly, I'd really like to sit down and TALK with someone back and forth about this stuff... If anyone wants to talk TPU building - send me a message, I'm more than happy to share my ideas.
Hello all,
@Phantasm
the BEST informations gave us Mannix when he posted SMs words.
AMEN!!
Otto
Quote from: BEP on May 04, 2009, 10:05:07 PM
I must have done it again....
Did I scare everyone off?
I know I've mentioned the zero volt tube circuits at least once about two years ago. I tried to introduce an MS oscillator a few times. The first long before @EMDevices found those great patents.
@Pese said it was a dead short circuit :D
I'll admit I don't recall posting anything about using dual rectifier tubes as amplifiers. That is an old HAM trick. You just insert a resistance between the filament and common. The normal detected signal modulates the common cathode and varies plate current of the second diode, pretty much what SM was saying in his rectifier story. The results aren't much different from using the grid in a triode. DC is required on the heater. You must tie the heater battery plus or minus to common. One will allow amplification. Tieing the wrong battery terminal will kill the effect.
That alone is the mystery if you don't understand a tube can amplify without plate current.
I see your references as some of the best so far!
There is a reluctance for people to use tubes in their experiments even though we been told specifically, several times to use them.
The context in which you put them is excellent....and dont forget that xrays are produced by them...where do x rays come from? and is there anything else?
The great masters were here as well...yet most are too "tech savvy" to use them.
Of course it is possible to get results with ss.......but only when you have the effect with the tubes.......10 years later, a ss device like in the videos...I repeat 10 years after having an operational device.
So, as smart as some of us may be, and as dedicated to sort this out ..it is perhaps our "education" that prevents us from rediscovery.
Early days ..keep it coming BEP!
Quote from: otto on May 08, 2009, 05:03:55 AM
Hello all,
@Phantasm
the BEST informations gave us Mannix when he posted SMs words.
AMEN!!
Otto
Thanks otto
You are an inspiration - Keep up your good work!
Quote from: Phantasm on May 08, 2009, 03:21:05 AM
No, youre fine - honestly I'm in the same boat that Loner is in... I'm feeling overwhelmed by conflicting perspectives on TPU operation.
@BEP
Sorry, I should clarify - - I, as well believe, that your input is highly valued. I didnt mean to discount any of what you just said or imply that it was a conflicting perspective. In fact, it looks like youre right on the mark with your explanation of SM's rectifier story...
There seems to be many perspectives. I also have one. I can account for most of the statements made by Steven. Just wind a lamp cord coil and then figure out how much cap to add to it to make resonant at say 5500cps. Easy to obtain with the coil form given.
Standard cap values and then trim the coil to fit. Sound familiar?
thaelin
Quote from: Phantasm on May 08, 2009, 09:43:27 AM
@BEP
Sorry, I should clarify - - I, as well believe, that your input is highly valued. I didnt mean to discount any of what you just said or imply that it was a conflicting perspective. In fact, it looks like youre right on the mark with your explanation of SM's rectifier story...
Your statements/questions are fine. I understood none as negative.
What you said about learning is always a plus is completely true. I do have some experience in most of this but the TPU trial is certainly a learning experience for anyone.
If they don't think they will learn something new they are already lost.
Quote from: Thaelin on May 08, 2009, 01:30:21 PM
There seems to be many perspectives. I also have one. I can account for most of the statements made by Steven. Just wind a lamp cord coil and then figure out how much cap to add to it to make resonant at say 5500cps. Easy to obtain with the coil form given.
Standard cap values and then trim the coil to fit. Sound familiar?
thaelin
How big would your coil be if the caps are only there as power smoothing for the multivibrator circuit?
And if there was no conventional core to increase the inductance?
Or if the 'core' is solely there for magnetostrictive (similar to a piezo effect) torsional movement? Of course, if the effect required is MS then the length of wire for the coil would only be important to the circuit driving it.
This IS only my perspective. It may or may not be correct.
Something I realized some time ago:
The act of trimming/cutting a system element to 'tune' the device indicates that element is probably not part of an electric circuit, except:
1. That element is primarily a capacitive device
2. The element is 'open-ended' and does not carry conventional current.
3. The element is mechanical in nature, like a magnetostrictive core not being used as an electric current conductor
If I am correct I still don't believe my perception of this type of TPU is complete.
BTW:
If it is number three I can understand trimming the length after extended use because the core would expand with heat buildup. If initially tuned cold the tuning may begin to fail as the element heated.
Yes, I see where you are going.
That may infer that inductance is not something useful here .
So perhaps low or canceled inductance... and high speed "whatevers" manipulated and/or originated by a rudimentary device. The process tunes into background "else"
Now, to make it actually work?
Lindsay
Hello all,
WOOOOW BEP, as so often, you hit the nail.
Otto
Quote from: otto on May 09, 2009, 09:08:21 AM
Hello all,
WOOOOW BEP, as so often, you hit the nail.
Otto
Yes, but as so often the nail is on my thumb!
It is not lighting lamps. It only sings weird sounds. Comparing the sounds to the soundtrack from all TPU videos mine are not even similar.
So, I am still lost >:(
Quote from: Mannix on May 09, 2009, 08:50:18 AM
That may infer that inductance is not something useful here .
I'm sure inductance must be considered anywhere there is a coil. Where it would be most important is the inductive coupling between the moving core and the control coils on top of the complete overwrap coil around the MS cores (I do not consider this overwrap coil a control coil or the core a collector.)
In mine the overwrap is the magnetic return path, as found in MS actuators. The control coils go on top of that in segments.
Maybe this is why it just sings ;D
@BEP
How do you move air with a mag field, without it being ionized? (You would quickly notice that.)
The simple answer is that a mag field wouldn't.
Vibration would, but enough to make a TPU sing..... (You would EASILY notice vibration that strong.)
So, what is making your TPU sing?
Paul Andrulis
Quote from: pauldude000 on May 10, 2009, 02:00:58 AM
@BEP
How do you move air with a mag field, without it being ionized? (You would quickly notice that.)
The simple answer is that a mag field wouldn't.
Vibration would, but enough to make a TPU sing..... (You would EASILY notice vibration that strong.)
So, what is making your TPU sing?
Paul Andrulis
I'm not moving air with a mag field. As you point out I'm moving air with vibration of the MS core.
The method is basically 'poor transformer core design', but intentional.
The noisy transformer effect is usually avoided by understanding ETR. I thought if I could produce the same sounds as the TPU videos I would be closer to a solution.
Specifically:
Two magnetostrictive-regenerative feedback oscillators connected back to back as a complete multivibrator circuit. The frequencies are determined by the core material not the coil windings. Caps are only used to couple the two circuits into a multivibrator.
There are two separate MS cores of bailing wire (re-annealed by me). Each is only two turns around the circumference.
The vibration of each is weakly audible and not in perfect tune with the other. So, it makes a bit of a wah-wah sound.
I liken it more to the UFO sounds in 50's Sci-Fi movies.
There. I did it. I dated myself ;D
Quote from: BEP on May 10, 2009, 08:51:21 AM
I'm not moving air with a mag field. As you point out I'm moving air with vibration of the MS core.
The method is basically 'poor transformer core design', but intentional.
The noisy transformer effect is usually avoided by understanding ETR. I thought if I could produce the same sounds as the TPU videos I would be closer to a solution.
Specifically:
Two magnetostrictive-regenerative feedback oscillators connected back to back as a complete multivibrator circuit. The frequencies are determined by the core material not the coil windings. Caps are only used to couple the two circuits into a multivibrator.
There are two separate MS cores of bailing wire (re-annealed by me). Each is only two turns around the circumference.
The vibration of each is weakly audible and not in perfect tune with the other. So, it makes a bit of a wah-wah sound.
I liken it more to the UFO sounds in 50's Sci-Fi movies.
There. I did it. I dated myself ;D
Put a football shaped neo mag on an inside edge. The mag field will treat the neo like speaker cone. Don't touch when it is vibrating.
--giantkiller.
Quote from: giantkiller on May 12, 2009, 11:38:20 PM
Put a football shaped neo mag on an inside edge. The mag field will treat the neo like speaker cone. Don't touch when it is vibrating.
--giantkiller.
Thanks for the suggestion. The construction of this one includes magnets already. At two points around the circumference (90 and 270) I have a two magnet set.
They are the same magnets shown on the open TPU. One above and one below. They are there to provide a static node in the torsion/stretch of the core using magnetostriction. They don't vibrate unless the multivibrator is off tune. When tuning is best the core vibrates and not the magnets.
Without the circuit the whole thing is the most poorly designed speaker in existence.
Fun to play the long version of "Innagoddadavida" but not much else. :D
you can make something vibrate by constantly changing the electrical gradient around it