I thought about the different configurations of a homopolar generator and some of Tesla's comments on these devices. Asking the right questions may help to clarify whether this class of generator has certain special properties. I will present some of the information I've found online, my questions, and my current ideas or theories. I would appreciate more complete answers if anyone has an idea or experience with it so that I can fully understand how different designs could work.
[1] Logic of the Design.
In order for a device of this class to exhibit overunity properties, there appear to be 3 challenges to overcome.
[1.1] Eddy currents must be minimized since they create drag or oppose the stator magnetic field even when no current is being drawn ("passive drag").
[1.2] The current must be drawn from the rotor in a way that does not create drag or oppose the stator magnetic field ("active drag") and perhaps even increases the field strength of the stator.
[1.3] The mechanical friction must be minimized between the rotor and the load circuit contacts as well as within the rotational assembly.
[2] Stator, Rotor and Circuit configurations.
There are actually many possible configurations that I have not yet seen explored. I will examine each part seperately.
[2.1] The Stator's purpose is to generate a magnetic field for the Rotor; it can be a permanent magnet or an electromagnet.
[2.1.1] What is the limitation in field strength of a permanent magnet? Neodynium seems to be at about 1.2T. This requires no power to maintain.
[2.1.2] What is the limitation in field strength of an electromagnet? With an air core you cannot really drive enough current or coil it enough to get an appreciable field strength. What about electromagnets with a core? Some materials can reach 1.8T with an applied field of only 0.05 gauss. This means that perhaps 0.1 amps of current and a reasonable number of turns of coil can fully saturate it. This requires an insignificant amount of power (I think) to reach field strengths above most permanent magnets, but is sensitive to opposing magnetic forces.
[2.1.3] Electromagnets have the advantage that their fields can be adjusted. It's easier to put them into position initially when they aren't turned on (try placing Neodynium magnets close together during assembly). The current from the generator can be run through the coils to increase the field strength or just to power the device, so I think electromagnets are the best choice for a Stator.
[2.2] The Rotor's purpose is to generate a voltage potential by traveling perpendicular to the Stator's field.
[2.2.1] The most common choice seems to be a conductive disk or cylinder such as one made of copper. This is usually depicted as the classical representation of the device.
[2.2.2] However, in Tesla's "'Notes on a Unipolar Dynamo" he suggests having some turns of wire attached to the Stator leading up to the contacts at the edge. This reveals the potential "secret" (if any) to this machine, which is the possibility that the same current that powers the external circuit can also strengthen the magnetic field that powers the machine; this self-exciting behavior is the focus of the design.
[2.2.3] Expanding on the previous idea, what if the Rotor was in fact a rotating coil rather than a solid disk? It could be a standard coil or a bifilar coil. A parallel bifilar coil generally increases the field generated from the coil, while an antiparallel bifilar coil should generally eliminate its own field. If the rotation of the Rotor and the winding of the coil were combined correctly, any current through the coil should actually mimic the original magnetic fields of the Stator and strengthen it. I would think that this also eliminates most of the eddy current problems.
[2.2.4] There is the experimental case of using a magnet rotating in its own field essentially as both Rotor and Stator. I'm only mentioning it because it's a popular idea but I don't think it addresses all of the design issues.
[2.3] The circuit is usually thought of as containing just the load (say, a light bulb) to power with this generator.
[2.3.1] The important thing here is that the circuit should be thought of as consisting of the Rotor, Rotor mechanism, and Stator as well. With the Stator being an electromagnet, the generator output powers the generator field as well as the load. If the device can actually become overunity, this means that as the output increases, the field strength increases as well as the power running through the Rotor shaft; since the output power is proportional to the rotational speed and the field strength, the only real limit would be the capabilities of the mechanical parts and the ability of all the parts to handle an increasingly high current flow (and heat, etc).
[3] Geometry.
I wrote a program to test the relative field strength and vectors given different coil geometies. I found that two solenoids or flat coils do not create uniform magnetic fields along the surface of a disk between them, but it's fairly close at long as the disk is has a smaller radius than the coils. It appears that two hemisphere-shaped coils can create a uniform field across the disk surface. This is a relatively complex thing to accomplish, and doesn't suit well to using a core.
[3.1] The disk configuration is one type, but the drum type homopolar generator might have advantages. The principal is similar but the Rotor coil approach is difficult to adapt to this type.
[3.2] Are some of the properties of the generator derived from the non-uniformity of the magnetic field on the disk? Tesla's notes on the device kind of states that when only a part of the disk is covered by magnetic fields, it can still be made self-exciting. However, it will function a bit differently when the whole surface is covered, and perhaps especially if the field is more uniform.
[4] Ideas and Questions.
[4.1] Given what I have read, a good way to look at the device is that if it is an overunity generator it would most likely be a poor motor. You want a design where applied current to the Rotor produces no movement. Then you probably have a better chance of having the correct generator action.
[4.2] Why is it suggested in some places that connecting magnets to the disk Rotor creates a situation where there seems to be no counterforce (eddy currents)?
[4.3] Will using a coil as a Rotor or adding some coils to a disk Rotor result in current flow or not since the voltage potential is from the center to the rim of the disk? We are basically forcing a path that re-enforces the original field if possible. Drawing current from the center directly toward the rim I think results in a field that pushes against the original field and slows the disk (counter-productive).
[4.4] In testing any device for overunity operation, I would avoid batteries, permanent magnets, and meters. This is because a battery or magnet can make the device look like extra power is being created when in truth either the magnet is slowly being depolarized or the battery is boiling or otherwise destroying itself. Meters can also be decieving; rather, just try to power the machine from its own output (ie, perpetual motion) then add on an external load. If the machine can support both indefinitely then that's a good sign.
This thread might be of interest to you...
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7391.0
Basically I'm trying to find the same thing. To come up with a design that either only works as a generator and not a motor or one that only is a motor with constant torque without any back torque regardless of rotation speed.
Hi BinaryMan and All,
Good thread, a thread just for homopolar research and theory, brolis thread is good too.
Quote from: BinaryMan on May 24, 2009, 09:02:15 AM
[4.3] Will using a coil as a Rotor or adding some coils to a disk Rotor result in current flow or not since the voltage potential is from the center to the rim of the disk? We are basically forcing a path that re-enforces the original field if possible. Drawing current from the center directly toward the rim I think results in a field that pushes against the original field and slows the disk (counter-productive).
I read an account of an experiment performed where a homopolar rotor was made out of a pancake coil (not bifilar), a single spiral of thick insulated copper wire, one end on the axis, the other end terminating at a continuous loop around the rim.
The experimenter was hoping to see a higher voltage generated by the homopolar action, which would be good because working with these low voltages it´s very easy to incur electrical losses. Anyway his result was exactly the same open circuit voltage generated as when a solid disc was used.
Quote from: BinaryMan on May 24, 2009, 09:02:15 AM
[4.4] In testing any device for overunity operation, I would avoid batteries, permanent magnets, and meters. This is because a battery or magnet can make the device look like extra power is being created when in truth either the magnet is slowly being depolarized or the battery is boiling or otherwise destroying itself. Meters can also be decieving; rather, just try to power the machine from its own output (ie, perpetual motion) then add on an external load. If the machine can support both indefinitely then that's a good sign.
I agree with it being difficult to meter these things. But permanent mags should be ok for experimenting, it´s pretty difficult to shake a neo up, they can take alot of stick!
One idea I have had for searching for OU in a homopolar is this experiment, which negates the need for electrical output measurement:
Make the simplest homopolar genny, a good sized spinning N52 nickel coated neo disk mag, secured to a high speed motor by a metal shaft.
There should be 1 inch or so of free shaft between motor and neo disk.
Place a metal ballrace on the shaft between the drivemotor and disk.
Construct a static housing out of metal, could possibly use soldered food tins. The housing needs to sit on the bearing and be held still externally, possibly use copper pipe soldered to a hole in the flat face of the tin enclosure. This copper pipe is a push fit on the ballrace outer surface.
So we have a neo disk spinning within a metal enclosure that stays still.
Now we fill the enclosure with a saturated electrolyte solution, whatever is chemically stable and gives highest conductance. The bearing could be the common type with neoprene guard seals, these seals would prevent almost all leakage because the system would not be under pressure and we could arrange the apparatus vertically so the bearing was at the top of the container.
Now when we spin up the disk, a current will flow through the electrolyte between the magnet and the tin suround, which will cause heating of the electrolyte. Of course current will also flow in the mag, the shaft, the bearing and the tin encloseure which will also cause heating.
If we lagged the tin surround with lots of glassfibre mat and foil layers then it would be possible to test for OU using simple calorimetry taking into account the volumes of all the fluids and metals. So after a timed run we could calculate how many Joules the system had gained.
The good thing to this approach is that nearly all energy out could be captured and measured, frictional heating (including electrolyte turbulence), electrical heating, vibrational heating etc.
If the shaft power was known then COP could be calculated fairly accurate. Especially if we took the thermal performance of the system into account by doing some static cooldown runs to measure thermal leakage.
Also one could seperate mechanical effects from electrical by machining a metal disk identical to the magnet and spinning that and performing the same calorimetry.
Well that´s an initial idea for a possible experiment that might reveal some interesting info.
note:
A thermal insulating coupler would be needed between the drive motor and the apparatus.
QuoteI read an account of an experiment performed where a homopolar rotor was made out of a pancake coil (not bifilar), a single spiral of thick insulated copper wire, one end on the axis, the other end terminating at a continuous loop around the rim.
The experimenter was hoping to see a higher voltage generated by the homopolar action, which would be good because working with these low voltages it´s very easy to incur electrical losses. Anyway his result was exactly the same open circuit voltage generated as when a solid disc was used.
I think that is good news if the shape of the electrical path on the Rotor doesn't interfere with the voltage potential generated. This means that a beneficial path can be created; in particular, the use of a coil that essentially acts like the original magnetic field when current flows through it.
QuoteI agree with it being difficult to meter these things. But permanent mags should be ok for experimenting, it´s pretty difficult to shake a neo up, they can take alot of stick!
It's not that it can't be done with permanent magnets, but rather that a machine based on electromagnets is scalable; the generator can use part of the output to increase the magnetic flux density. It also directly tells us if the Rotor is fighting back since that would affect the electromagnets.
Quote
Now we fill the enclosure with a saturated electrolyte solution, whatever is chemically stable and gives highest conductance. The bearing could be the common type with neoprene guard seals, these seals would prevent almost all leakage because the system would not be under pressure and we could arrange the apparatus vertically so the bearing was at the top of the container.
Yes, the refinement of the design might include a conductive liquid to ease frictional forces. I usually imagine that the application of the voltage in such a machine is for something where high current is efficient, such as splitting water.
I tried also to make a diagram which describes my intention; the blue arrow shows the direction of current flow through the Rotor. In a normal disk, the current draw would cause a field which opposes the intended field, while if a certain coil is used then the current draw causes a field which does not. I'm not entirely sure what the physical result would be. What we want is for the current draw on the Rotor to have no effect on the magnetic field; this would mean that the current can be used to power both the field and the rotation.
As far as I can tell, the equation to get the voltage for a disk is:
voltage potential = angular velocity * field strength * disk radius^2
(source: http://www.physics.umd.edu/lecdem/outreach/QOTW/arch11/q218unipolar.pdf)
Question: Why is the thickness of the disk not used in the calculation? Would a thicker disk generate more voltage as long as it's still think enough to experience the magnetic density?
The field strength is limited primarily by the material used. 1.2T for rare earth magnets, and 1.8T for certain electromagnet cores. In a larger scale device, it might be possible to exceed these based on the sheer size and thickness of the coils, but in test devices I don't think this would happen. The angular velocity is limited by the power output of the motor being used to turn the Rotor. The radius is variable and scalable.
The key to an overunity device of this type is that the power output from the voltage generated is greater than the power consumed by the motor. I think the field generation isn't the main concern since magnets can be used, and electromagnets of the correct type wouldn't take very much power to saturate the magnetic core. A device where the loop is established through all the components doesn't need an initial power source; a simple nudge should cause the machine to power itself and speed up until reaching maximum velocity.
I'm still curious about a magnet rotating through its own field; if the current is drawn in the coil fashion, perhaps this might work also.
Hi BinaryMan,
The to split water then sufficient volatge must be achieved, I don't know the threshold off the top of my head, but it is 1.4v or so i think. This would take a largeish diameter or a very high speed.
QuoteIt's not that it can't be done with permanent magnets, but rather that a machine based on electromagnets is scalable; the generator can use part of the output to increase the magnetic flux density. It also directly tells us if the Rotor is fighting back since that would affect the electromagnets.
I agree that electromag excitation would be good for scalability, and the whole notion of self excitation is alluring. A permanent mag would always be welcome though, perhaps augmented by an electromag, after all it would provide some flux for absolutely free. If you wan't to detect if the generator is (fighting back) then just monitor the input power to the motor drive. If you mean is the rotor is diminishing the mag field then just glue a hall probe to the permanet mag back, any shifting of average flux will be seen.
With regard to building an OU device straight away, maybe that's rushing it a little. If the calorimetry experiment I mention does yield OU then of course it's a path to consider, if not then it's building for the sake of it, which I suppose can be enjoyable in its own right.
Homopolars are not that well documented so it's a field ripe for research. Bruce De Palmas "N machine" is said to be OU, just that it had terrific losses to heat, I haven't read anywhere whether calorimetry was performed on the device, it probably should have been.
I know it's boring to do the drudge work with calorimetry, many would prefer to jump straight in and close the loop, but the initial drudgework is required to better understand what we're working with.
The problems I see it with homopolars and building them for excess electrical output is that even the slightest electrical resistance gives large losses. Perhaps with a superconducting disk and brushes then it would be easy, but with even oxygen free copper it has great heat losses.
I might conduct the calorimetry experiment, it won't give us useable electric output power but it will reveal some more fundamental understanding of closed system COP.
QuoteQuestion: Why is the thickness of the disk not used in the calculation? Would a thicker disk generate more voltage as long as it's still think enough to experience the magnetic density?
I think a thicker disk could give higher available current, voltage would stay the same, the equation you quote is only for voltage so the thickness is not included. As you mention to run a thicker disk might require a stronger magnet to make the average field strength be the same throughout it.
Yeah you're right the voltage is the same but a thicker disk will act like a heavy guage wire in cases where a higher current is desired.
Now, something that's confusing to me is why the voltage is undetermined if the disk and the external circuit are both rotating. Does this mean that it cannot power a load?
(examine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator)
In the picture for instance, if the device is on and rotating, will the light bulb be powered by the circuit if (1) the bulb and connection wiring are attached and rotating as well or (2) if they are not rotating but just attached to the rotating parts with brushes etc?
In the second picture, there's an example of using conductive belts between devices to transfer current. The disk acts like a battery, so multiple devices with the right magnetic field orientations can act like batteries in series. If the load is electrolysis, having rotating parts should still work in the liquid which would have an advantage. The trick in most designs is transfering the current efficiently between the rotating and non-rotating parts. This design still doesn't feed the current back into the electromagnets or motor though.
* Found out that water's resistivity is so high that the voltage of a typical generator probably won't do much good.
very good points
i have one homopolar generator that wouldnt work as a motor
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7130.msg166911#msg166911
magnets are indirectly exposed to coils inducing current
let me know what you think
until next time
How do i calculate the generated output of a single disk rotor i made on an engine lathe while attending college. Regarding copper rotor size, this one i made is 4 inches in diameter and only .90 thick.
Can i calculate the energy output related to the size before i design a commutator frame for the rotor?
Friction is a issue so i plan to make my generator look like an hard drive, I thought of several ideas to save my butt inventing but the rotor is known for destroying the commutator if it’s output too strong per revolution it spins at..
Can anyone help me calculate how fast i should spin this rotor before I even build a frame for it?
Quote from: BinaryMan on May 26, 2009, 12:45:43 AM
Now, something that's confusing to me is why the voltage is undetermined if the disk and the external circuit are both rotating. Does this mean that it cannot power a load?
(examine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator)
In the picture for instance, if the device is on and rotating, will the light bulb be powered by the circuit if (1) the bulb and connection wiring are attached and rotating as well or (2) if they are not rotating but just attached to the rotating parts with brushes etc?
Your case (1) will not light. Your case (2) will light:
I tried the experiment of spinning The magnet disk along with the takeoff and load. Took me a few tries and a few flying capacitors to get it balanced well enough. I just stuck the cap to the axle using super glue.
Magnet: N52 Nickel Coated Neo (diam=38mm thick=6.5mm)
Electrolytic cap: 6.3V 1000uF
Resistor: 100k metal film
Outer rim is connected to the -v cap terminal.
The magnet axle is connected via the resistor to the +v cap terminal.
In this configuration the cap will discharge at about 2mV per second.
I discharged the cap by shorting and then did a spin up to 3000RPM for 2 minutes.
I noticed no difference in the capacitors charge after measuring as soon as it stopped. spinning, GUTTED!
I wondered if the centrifugal force made my rim connection go open circuit as it's only bound on with tight sellotape so I also tried precharging the cap to 300mV and then left it to discharge for 30 seconds. Tried this spinning and static, same discharge rate.
The same mag produces over 50mV using brushes at that speed.
Yucca,
I think the biggest problem with a HPG is the high current and low voltage output. If we manage to make a HPG that do the opposite then all problems solved. The reason for the high current and low voltage is the metal disk very low resistance. No high voltage can or will develop in such a disk. My proposal is to use a disk made out of a material that gives us a high resistance from the center of the disc to the edge. Do you think it is a viable approach?
Groundloop.
Quote from: Groundloop on May 30, 2009, 07:39:49 AM
Yucca,
I think the biggest problem with a HPG is the high current and low voltage output. If we manage to make a HPG that do the opposite then all problems solved. The reason for the high current and low voltage is the metal disk very low resistance. No high voltage can or will develop in such a disk. My proposal is to use a disk made out of a material that gives us a high resistance from the center of the disc to the edge. Do you think it is a viable approach?
Groundloop.
I agree high current and low voltage creates an engineering headache, constantly fighting resistive losses.
It´s certainly worth an experiment, obtain some higher resistance metal in a thin sheet or foil form and make a disk then spin it up and compare voltage to that obtained with copper at the same RPM. My gut feeling is that the voltage would remain the same but the disc saturation current would be lower and more losses to resistive heating would be encountered. Of course before I would state this as fact, an experiment would need performing.
Note to all:
BWS on Brolis thread keeps mentioning that OU can only be achieved when the disk becomes fully saturated with current. So perhaps for any of our bench experiments we should be using very thin discs (foil) so that we can saturate them more easily without the need for excessive speed or diameter. Just something to bear in mind perhaps.
The military are using the technology in the form of superconducting
homopolar motors for a new class of US destroyer. There will be lessons
to be learned from them if we can work out how:
http://www.ga.com/atg/EMS/homopolar.php
Paul-R
Yucca,
>>said: "losses to resistive heating would be encountered."
Are you sure? Your experiment with the capacitor shows that no power can be
extracted from the disk UNTIL after the brushes on the rotor. If your statement was true then we could put a heating element on the disk and just use the heat as a output. But this will not work when the heating element is rotating with the disk.
A high resistive disk will allow the voltage dipole to be much higher but will not heat up because the real power will only manifest itself outside the rotating frame.
Am I correct here or am I thinking wrong?
Groundloop.
Quote from: Groundloop on May 30, 2009, 11:05:18 AM
Yucca,
>>said: "losses to resistive heating would be encountered."
Are you sure? Your experiment with the capacitor shows that no power can be
extracted from the disk UNTIL after the brushes on the rotor. If your statement was true then we could put a heating element on the disk and just use the heat as a output. But this will not work when the heating element is rotating with the disk.
A high resistive disk will allow the voltage dipole to be much higher but will not heat up because the real power will only manifest itself outside the rotating frame.
Am I correct here or am I thinking wrong?
Groundloop.
I´m not sure, in a normal circuit, where the source is current limited, i.e. it has significan internal resistance like a battery, then a higher resistance will drop a higher voltage of course. But in this case I think the potential will remain the same and the current will be limited, it will still obey ohms law but the current will change and not the voltage. Only an experiment would make me certain and it´s pointless to design upon this premise without an experiment to check it. If I can obtain a disk of higher resistance then I will check it.
If we did make a disk with a heating element on it, say we made a disk made of two wide concentric rings, and we put a heating element between the ring interface, then I think, provided we completed the circuit with static brushes, that the heater would heat, despite it rotating.
I agree heat is not a waste per se and could be used or at least measured for energy output, that´s why I proposed the calirometry experiment, to force most of the energy to manifest as heat and then with sufficient thermal insulation it is simple to analyse the whole systems output using just a thermometer and a stopwatch. Wouldn´t make an electric generator, but could be used in heating perhaps. Couple the technology with a Griggs Hydrosonic pump, in one unit, and it might be way overunity?
I think we need more experiments until further theorising, although theorising can be fun :)
Yucca,
You can easily test the theory on your existing test rotor. First make a copper ring with the same diameter as you magnet. Then solder 4 copper wires from the ring and to the center of the ring. Now you have a low resitive disk. Measure the voltage. Now replace the the 4 copper wires with resistors. Measure the voltage. More or less voltage?
>>you said:"If we did make a disk with a heating element on it, say we made a disk made of two wide concentric rings, and we put a heating element between the ring interface, then I think, provided we completed the circuit with static brushes, that the heater would heat, despite it rotating."
If you use brushes then the heating element must be outside the rotating frame, eg. not rotating. If the heating element is rotating with the disc then there is no relative motion between the heating element and the disc, you can not extract power inside the rotating frame. You have already proven that.
I do not have any test setup right now. I contemplating buying some few Neo ring magnets with a diameter of 200mm and center hole of 20mm, thickness 5mm. But this will take 4 - 8 weeks to order. So for now I'm not able to test anything.
I will be grateful if you find the time to test the resistor theory on your rig.
Groundloop.
How fast does an unipolar rotor supposed to rotate (RPM's) in a magnetic field to generate at least the one volt its supposed to make per rotor?
What is considered too fast for a rotor that only produces one volt?
Dosent electrons flow from the center to the edge caused by centripetal and Centrifugal forces applied with a magnet field? the negative terminal is the edge of the rotor where the electrons are drawn off the rotor with a commutator right?
Please help me; I don’t want to create unnecessary study thinking that the magnet does all the work on the homopolar generator pushing electrons up to a rotor surface to be collected by a commutator..
im designing an thin commutator to slide with but i dont know if it would melt with an rotor spinning to fast powering an coil load.
i saw a note to all about OU (over unity) and disk saturation requirements, what rpm's is that achieved with an rotor this small? (4 inches in dia)
Quote from: Groundloop on May 30, 2009, 12:00:36 PM
Yucca,
You can easily test the theory on your existing test rotor. First make a copper ring with the same diameter as you magnet. Then solder 4 copper wires from the ring and to the center of the ring. Now you have a low resitive disk. Measure the voltage. Now replace the the 4 copper wires with resistors. Measure the voltage. More or less voltage?
...
I do not have any test setup right now. I contemplating buying some few Neo ring magnets with a diameter of 200mm and center hole of 20mm, thickness 5mm. But this will take 4 - 8 weeks to order. So for now I'm not able to test anything.
I will be grateful if you find the time to test the resistor theory on your rig.
Groundloop.
Interesting experiment, I´ll probably try that. Because my brushes are noisy. I use a scope to look at the noisy output and then I can see the max levels reached. Give me a few days but I´ll try it in the end.
QuoteIf you use brushes then the heating element must be outside the rotating frame, eg. not rotating. If the heating element is rotating with the disc then there is no relative motion between the heating element and the disc, you can not extract power inside the rotating frame. You have already proven that.
In my mind I have only proven that part of the circuit must be outside of the rotating frame in order for potential to develop over the spinning disc. Do you agree that when a static brush is extracting power then that power must flow through the rotating disc. That disc has resistance so it should itself act as a heating element despite it being in the rotating frame?
It would be very handy to have a LED like device with a real low forward voltage, something to mount on the disc for doing tests like these. Even a joule thief requires 0.4v or so to light a LED, I can´t get up to that voltage with my small mag.
The 200mm ring mag sounds massive! You could probably get some decent voltage out of that. I want one!
i have created an 2 sided copper PCB rotor just recently in college to experiment with, just showing to see if someone could agree that this baby could produce 2 volts each rotor.
i plan to build a frame for it soon, I'm so poor i must wait for advice to find out how fast this rotor should spin...
Quote from: the_sealab_2021 on May 30, 2009, 12:34:44 PM
Dosent electrons flow from the center to the edge caused by centripetal and Centrifugal forces applied with a magnet field? the negative terminal is the edge of the rotor where the electrons are drawn off the rotor with a commutator right?
Please help me; I don’t want to create unnecessary study thinking that the magnet does all the work on the homopolar generator pushing electrons up to a rotor surface to be collected by a commutator..
im designing an thin commutator to slide with but i dont know if it would melt with an rotor spinning to fast powering an coil load.
i saw a note to all about OU (over unity) and disk saturation requirements, what rpm's is that achieved with an rotor this small? (4 inches in dia)
At one point I also thought electrons were forced out by cetrifugal forces. I was wrong, you can reverse the polarity by reversing the spin or flipping the magnet.
RE saturation. I don´t think you´ll be able to saturate the thick copper disk your holding easily in a home lab environment, it looks fairly thick. But your PCB disk just might be possible?
I should point out, this saturation stuff is only hearsay to me, I haven´t tested it yet.
Anyway you should definitely get your PCB disk loaded with mags and get it spinning as fast as you dare!
thanks for the info, I'm in the middle of redesigning air bearings for it since it should spin at such exaggerated rpm's.
i was wondering if i could spin it in a tank of liquid nitrogen or helium.
i wouldn't want it flying off like Frisbees so a shaft is being made.
@Sealab
It´s difficult to calculate average B field over the entire disk, especially if you have lots of mags glued on. this makes it difficult to calculate output voltage. I can only recommend magging it up and spinning as fast as you can, then probe its voltage.
i don't plan to glue anything to a spinning object that could throw it off in the first place.
i wanted to know why would i use magnets on the rotor itself when an homopolar rotor generator would have an C magnet along one side according to Faraday's original design. ( Ive thought a coil magnet would not direct the current enough to one point of the rotor during operation)
i need more gibberish that wont kill me just yet, i have already spun the copper PCB rotor with an high speed drill chuck with magnets on the drill base and it causes the magnets to move around the base as it spins.
i assumed that the copper creates a torque with the magnetic Fields and I'm still experimenting with it. it ll take me a few months to acquire the proper equipment to test the voltage, i don't have any tester to test the available current and my first tester was an coil that attracted a magnet itself (It didn't work yet,I must wind a thick wired solenoid to prove the current there). I'm drawing pictures of possible coil configurations like on the first post. according to reverse polarity trick with a duel homopolar rotor configuration( if i use an insulated shaft) i might have discovered a way to link the 2 sides together carefully. ( it must stay balanced)
i appreciate your advice, i have no investors so I'm all alone in this idea of mine.
@Yucca,
I will look forward to you high resistance test, thanks.
You may be right about the static brush and current. I have never built a HPG so this is new to me. A little Joule Thief to test small voltages is a good idea. I think that if you short circuit the disk with a load and if the load is on the disk itself then you get the same voltage potential in the wire going from the rim of the disk to the load so that you get two voltages of the same magnitude, but with opposite polarity, canceling each other out. But as I said, this is new to me so I may be wrong.
This firm: http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/index.php
do sell custom designed magnets all over the world. I have a request to the firm but have not yet received an answer. But I bet those big Neo disks will be expensive.
Regards,
Groundloop.
Quote from: Groundloop on May 31, 2009, 03:16:39 AM
This firm: http://www.supermagnete.de/eng/index.php
do sell custom designed magnets all over the world. I have a request to the firm but have not yet received an answer. But I bet those big Neo disks will be expensive.
I'll be interested to know the quote, maybe PM me when you get an answer from them. At the moment I have four of these:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-Neodymium-Magnets-1-5-x-1-4-x-1-4-inch-Ring-N48_W0QQitemZ180254641719QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item29f8038e37&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A30
The same ebayer now sells these bigger ones which I'm tempted by, bigger diameter plus the eighth inch hole will go nicely onto a really high speed tiny brushless motor I have which is really efficient.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-Neodymium-Magnets-2-x-1-8-x-1-4-inch-Ring-N48_W0QQitemZ150262368979QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item22fc55cad3&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A30
@Yucca,
Sure, I'll PM you as soon as I get a response from the firm.
The 2 incs disk seems to be a perfect disk for small scale testing.
Groundloop.
Looks like a nice homopolar genny someone is building for electrolysis and possible OU:
http://www.stardrivedevice.com/over-unity.html#dynamo_photos
QuoteThe 18" Dynamo's projected net buss bar output voltage is 1.49 vdc at a max. rotation of 1900 rpm, just marginally greater than the theoretical optimum (ideal) water electrolysis voltage of 1.23 vdc, with no power conversion or transformation whatsoever required and with a corresponding max. load current of nearly 1,700 amps!
In the HPG, the radial vector is what initiates the motion of a classical setup. ..having a flat bifilar parallel pancake coil... the radial going back in will cancel the radial going out, even if the radial out is a longer measure, and a spiral, it's action will be the same as that of the shortest radial.
Not only this, the spiral vector will be subjected to the forces of it's own magnetic field, and though the eddy curents will be limited to flowing in the wire, they will still compund the dynamics of the situation.
..what you need is a silver disk. :) carbon brushes, and an additional component(s) to generate a greater voltage.
Quote from: jadaro2600 on June 02, 2009, 10:01:40 AM
In the HPG, the radial vector is what initiates the motion of a classical setup. ..having a flat bifilar parallel pancake coil... the radial going back in will cancel the radial going out, even if the radial out is a longer measure, and a spiral, it's action will be the same as that of the shortest radial.
Not only this, the spiral vector will be subjected to the forces of it's own magnetic field, and though the eddy curents will be limited to flowing in the wire, they will still compund the dynamics of the situation.
I agree, I don't see any benefit of spiral coils. But perhaps a disk split into many smaller radials (spokes) would reduce eddy currents in lower loading situations?
The easiest way to make such a rotor would be to create a hires mask and then make a PCB disc, have a solid axis ring and a solid circumference ring connected by a thousand spokes each spoke seperated by only a hairswidth. The outer circumference ring could extend just over the mag disk and that area could be used for stout brush contacts.
the new electrolaser was just brought in to irritate the copper rotor during conduction experiments. reflecting electromagnetic spectrum's caused difficulty probing the freaking disk.
DC turbine designs are being drafted as you read
its going to take me a year to grind this air hockey puck cup holder at a local college to collect static buildup w/ niobium seed
who buys these things?
Quote from: the_sealab_2021 on August 22, 2009, 12:32:28 PM
the new electrolaser was just brought in to irritate the copper rotor during conduction experiments. reflecting electromagnetic spectrum's caused difficulty probing the freaking disk.
DC turbine designs are being drafted as you read
its going to take me a year to grind this air hockey puck cup holder at a local college to collect static buildup w/ niobium seed
who buys these things?
I'm trying to buy electrolaser material from scratch after i borrowed one and it seems that theories are priceless related to cargo supplied
I'm trying to prevent this electrolaser electroshock weapon from being used by government to torture USA populations with taxation forced as robbery.
I'm using this website to claim the effects of the electrolaser on a rotating silver plated copper disk target for pure overunity effects that i cannot afford completely yet, not enough college loan, and i wont tell yet since its already notarized on draft paper for 2050 aircraft engines
beware of government theft stealing inventions for profit controlling society please
peace to you on earth for power directly from your home alone and not from taxed sources of government need of human taxation, systems have killed alot of scientist for not being able to pay for the invention plans
i just discovered that it is not wise to complete such over unity perpetual rotor invention in a public place related to government expenses provided by taxation requiring a forced return with human death trade. so its going to take me a long time to gather the photos while assembling the n-machine with its several exciters allowing atomic energy to be gathered and collected for work use.
After the rotor friction is removed with an hand made miniature air puck table for a rotor case with niobium magnets glued underneath the table fabric. A custom built and cut silver plated copper rotor can spin freely like an gas turbine if liquid nitrogen can replace the pressure energy required to spin the object centered on a pin. contact ignition can occur for particle transport when a high voltage is applied to collect the current being gathered at several points on a conductive excited rotor converting the physical rotation into particle pressure traveling through conductive materials.
the machine is very complex and difficulty to build, part by part without auto cad since the current voltage will not rise if a stack of rotors is not considered and that cannot be shared at this time. world war is upon the human race since government manipulates trade on earth without proper representation
just say no to fuel combustion engines, the addictive government currency forced humans to get high and addicted to burning stinky hydrocarbon matter with chemical and physical reactions releasing required work energy that changes nitrogen into poisonous oxide gases locking up oxygen in the atmosphere of earth. The cellulose oil was supposed to build space ships out of strong and light carbon materials. the government system is a huge waste of earth resources, allowing human addictions to Confucian to cause a problem on earth between humans.
there is no use to explain over unity reality any further when the law causes death to those whom protect the use of such energy used for government war creations.
the government likes to break their own laws, if one of their own humans broke it in the first place where resistive science propaganda was discovered incorrect.
as far as Issac newton stealing others ideas and claiming them his own.
there is no such thing as heaven or "what should not be named" evil.
the end of the world is caused by the neglect to care. Project "Green sparky" was a good one and it hurt nothing alive to heat a green house well.
the Fleming principle of conductive atoms operate transportation of atomic particles with perpetual magnetic flux Fields traveling distances between atoms releasing cell particles with momentum of an conductive rotor shape.
would a sphere make a unipolar current generator?
In mathematics and physics, the right-hand rule is a common mnemonic for understanding notation conventions for vectors in 3 dimensions. It was invented for use in electromagnetism by British physicist John Ambrose Fleming in the late 19th century. the human British murders like bouncing distractions on resources extracted from earth for luxury expense habit of government bad, evil, addictive habits causing the extinction of the human race with neglect to care religion.
the 90 degree vectors for energy transmission still have infinite directions to travel. too bad the British still murder scientist for using scientific designs of theirs.
BIG OIL SCIENTIST left heavy metals in crude oil hydrocarbon products ANYWAY that was released INTO THE ATMOSPHERE WITH ADDICTIVE NEGLECT as poison oxide REACTION vapors from shooting gasoline and diesel fume exhaust pipes of fuel reactor energy transmissions. SULFUR AND MERCURY COMBINES WITH PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL REACTIONS CREATED AT TOP DEAD CENTER POSITION OF COMBUSTION CYLINDERS OF HYDROCARBON ENERGY REACTORS. ALCOHOL FUEL MANUFACTURES NEVER TESTED MASH INGREDIENTS FOR THE SAME PROBLEM WITH ITS ORE RESOURCES TAINTED WITH TOXIC HEAVY METALS RELEASED WITH CHEMICAL ENERGY REACTIONS
but religious crusaders addicted to luxury neglecting to care purposefully for earth resources extracted with human over excitement don't know the perpetual flux Field ellipse I discovered with proper perception attention
the chair design distraction is an weak insulator used to punish humans neglecting to care about conflicts with designs allowing friction waste neglected from correction.
beads of mercury coat a silver race grove carved into the rotor edges for an silver electrode hovering in the rotor edges spun on vacuum bearings drawing helium from an glass envelope.
human science masterbaiters from France had to take poison "dummy" pills to curb their bad habits neglecting to care about other humans surviving on earth "with no evil habits".
. the human bully was murdering earth for addictive luxury expenses related to induced religious death with favoritism. the deadly neglect habit squandering earth resources with bad evil teaching religions that it was OK for humans to go extinct with the bad habit of false belief trade.
how mush longer do it take humans to trade appropriately without evil. the government human slaves where still running around with hired terror threats robbing populations with half facts about earth resources spent quickly.
the collected energy the earth had saved under the surface as crude oil was released into the atmosphere with poison oxide reactions forcing humans to neglect to care about designing carbon-core fiberglass over unity turbines of energy creation.
wasted my time splitting logs related to whomsoever was over excited for deadly addictive hope and forgiveness related to false beliefs of religion swallowing human with planned religious human race extinction. political human abusing choice habits of favoritism selections addicted to violent ethnic race habits practicing evil trade taught by government forces mismanaging earth resources with care neglect about half facts related to evil guessing games.
the askrisk associated with typos are used to prevent idea theft of overunity in atomic particle transport energy on a vector from one point to another with equal load balance.
when i discovered that the unipolar rotor required a vaccum.
Genesis Khan was ready for war on poison chemical energy reactions released into the earths atmosphere for free death forced with human neglect to care.
the Pyrex glass insulating cylinder can hold an particle rotor on pressure bearings if installed properly.
i cant find the currency to pay for tool rental from the eureka university yet. no human understands the power of gas vaccum.
i had pictures to post but the website has given me a forcefull restriction of oppression. the dorks of government just could not seam roll Margarita glass cups good enough. the Pyrex glass welding robots with squared rollers have already lost their jobs for gasoline reactor fume addicted humans .
i found this perpetual force in the magnetic Field when flux energy was present within atomic mass in transport. when physical energy is stored during momentum, particle mass is transmitted with transmission. "but the end of the earth was known" by a semiconductor music band
i am going to start a new thread on this topic since the webside is refusing my pictures of proof.
i really tired to chance a loss of an patent that my profit requires of " " such machine humans could become attracted to selfishly.
overunity, of energy creation. there is nothing but government propaganda extracting earth resources at extended and increasing volume to brag about.
even stephen hawking claims the humans should ditch earth for fortune in empty space.
"but I'm not that brain dead to forget DC travel". i need 40 years to figure out the problem with human jealousy and ignorance.
I'm discovering big holes in my hydrogen weather stations so government has invaded earth airspace.
to pop off earth so that the government didnt kill all human for resource addictions
Quote from: jadaro2600 on June 02, 2009, 10:01:40 AM
In the HPG, the radial vector is what initiates the motion of a classical setup. ..having a flat bifilar parallel pancake coil... the radial going back in will cancel the radial going out, even if the radial out is a longer measure, and a spiral, it's action will be the same as that of the shortest radial.
Not only this, the spiral vector will be subjected to the forces of it's own magnetic field, and though the eddy curents will be limited to flowing in the wire, they will still compound the dynamics of the situation.
..what you need is a silver disk. :) carbon brushes, and an additional component(s) to generate a greater voltage.
@all
Your may want to ignore this sealab character. I notice the difference between a
homopolar generator and homopolar motor seems to be the presense of an edge
of continuous metal around the periphery of the disk that is not covered by the
magnet in the homopolar motor case.
That might make for an interesting unitary motor/generator pair amature. You
would still need brushes in the static reference plane though. I suspect the
brushes could simply need to be "virtually" static though. I wonder what the
mechanical horsepower impedance matching would be between a homopolar
motor and a homopolar generator using the same disk size, and therefore
whether this unitary rotor makes mechanical sense.
I suspect that the sprial groove(s) in the disk of the metal is the only way to
tune the operation of these though.
---
Also using the hompolar generator to drive a (onboard) low voltage HHO
electolyzer might make some sense too. Get your energy output in
terms of HHO.
:S:MarkSCoffman