Hi everybody,
I decided to start this thread as a place to explore using the AC which is produced by the joule thief pick-up as AC. (And not turn it back into DC)
So many of us have worked with the joule thief circuit (jtc) with Secondary/pick-up; and we have been successful in many ways. I have been delighted with the results I have had using the secondary/pick-up. With the scope it is clearly an AC wave. The x axis is somewhere close to the center of the wave.
As an AC phenomenon it needs a different approach from DC to get the greatest results.
My surprise 2 tier circuit gave me a hint at the possibilities and now that I have accomplished my first lighting of a fluoro tube with a hand wound toroid, it is time for me to address this.
[BTW, the regular joule thief thread started by Pirate88179 is the beginning of this thread. And, I consider this thread to be a thinner thread spun off from that one. Reading that thread is probably a prerequisite for anyone here. sorry, there are no shortcuts. :D]
My favorite inspirational drawing is below.
It may need explanation and I will add some of that through the day today.
I don't know when my time will run out to modify this initial post, so, I just want to say that in the drawing below is a set of options for using the power from a generator.
Half of the drawing deals with power from an ac generator and the other half from a dc generator. It didn't matter where the initial generator was.
This is true for us as well.
I use a 1.2v battery and stprue uses a variation from the wall power that makes his dc 1.5v as well.
We are not making our pulses by "disruptive discharge" instead we are using a transistor. So, for us, the story begins after the first connection, I think.
However, it is always a good idea to see the whole story, because there may be a clue to an innovation we can use in our joule thief circuits.
I invite anyone else who wants to explore AC from the JT to join me... and help me and others accomplish in this specific direction.
thanks to all,
jeanna
Lady @jeanna
Count me in.
Jesus
Welcome, jesus!
and thank you,
jeanna
@jeanna
Do you see any difference between the different type of jt (bifiliar- or other ways you tested) when it comes to the pickup output .
Mark
i Guess some scoop shot of the jt Vs pickup coil out , could be a good start .
Anyone !
Hi MK1,
Sure, The toroid itself makes pulsed wave with the x axis on the bottom. (or top if the wires are reversed.)
so it is_____||_____||_____||_____
sometimes it is irregular like
_____||_|_||______|_|___|__|___|||_|||_____|__|__
Once the secondary is wound the pulses go down as well as up.
Sometimes they are also irregular.
If the secondary is wound all one way the all the way back it looks somewhere in between the second line above and one with the spikes going both ways.
The MK1 has the best quality wave, without a doubt.
The thing I do not know, is if it matters. I think it should, but if the pulses come very fast the effect may be the same. I do not know.
I would also love to have someone with a scope that works on a computer and who has a MK1 wound compare it with the other types.
It can be very smooth with a capacitor at the base resistor too.
I saw one of those last night with the toroid bifilar and cap. It looked like this
_____/^\_____/^\_____
sort of wide spike going up along a line.
jeanna
Lady @jeanna
Is there any clearer schematic of the one posted. Or, could you draw a clearer one with paint and some schematic symbols from the present era?
Jesus
Hi jesus,
My apologies for the quality.
I am in that process. I cannot find the page where this drawing came from, at the moment. I spent much time yesterday copying pages from the Tesla lecture in London, because I thought it was there.
Now, I think this comes from the Tesla lecture in New York, but maybe later.
I think that book was stored on microfiche, because it is really small. My pdf program can make it look pretty good, but it is a slow process.
I did not realize I didn't have the page handy or I would have waited to start the thread.
thank you,
jeanna
I have made a fair copy of the text that relates to the diagram. I took 2 half pics too. This may not fit on one post
My advice is to read this in a relaxed frame of mind. Much of what he says has to do with the work around he needed because he did not have a transistor. There are some very interesting things to ponder.
Quotefrom Tesla:
To obtain very rapid vibra-
tion in a circuit of some inertia, a great stretching force or differ-
ence of potential is necessary. Incidentally, when the E. M. F. is
very great, the condenser which is usually employed in connec-
tion with the circuit need but have a small capacity, and many
other advantages are gained. With a view of raising the E. M. F.
to a many times greater value than obtainable from ordinary
distribution circuits, a rotating transformer g is used, as indi-
cated at i la, Fig. 165, or else a separate high potential machine
is driven by means of a motor operated from the generator G.
The latter plan is in fact preferable, as changes are easier made.
The connections from the high tension winding are quite similar
to those in branch la with the exception that a condenser c,
which should be adjustable, is connected to the high tension
circuit. Usually, also, an adjustable self-induction coil in series
with the circuit has been employed in these experiments. When
the tension of the currents is very high, the magnet ordinarily
used in connection with the discharger is of comparatively small
p.316
value, as it is quite easy to adjust the dimensions of the circuit
so that oscillation is maintained. The employment of a steady
E. M. F. in the high frequency conversion affords some advan-
tages over the employment of alternating E. M. F., as the adjust-
ments are much simpler and the action can be easier controlled.
But unfortunately one is limited by the obtainable potential dif-
ference. The winding also breaks down easily in consequence
of the sparks which form between the sections of the armature
or commutator when a vigorous oscillation takes place. Besides,
these transformers are expensive to build. It has been found by
experience that it is best to follow the plan illustrated at iiia. [top one]
In this arrangement a rotating transformer g, is employed to
convert the low tension direct currents into low frequency alter-
nating currents, preferably also of small tension. The tension
of the currents is then raised in a stationary transformer T. The
secondary s of this transformer is connected to an adjustable con-
denser c which discharges through the gap or discharger dd, placed
in either of the ways indicated, through the primary p of a dis-
ruptive discharge coil, the high frequency current being obtained
from the secondary s of this coil, as described on previous occa-
sions. This will undoubtedly be found the cheapest and most con-
venient way of converting direct currents.
The three branches of the circuit A represent the usual cases
met in practice when alternating currents are converted. In
Fig. 1b a condenser c., generally of large capacity, is connected to the
circuit L containing the devices L L, m m. The devices m m are sup-
posed to be of high self-induction so as to bring the frequency of
the circuit more or less to that of the dynamo. In this instance
the discharger d d should best have a number of makes and breaks
per second equal to twice the frequency of the dynamo. If not
so, then it should have at least a number equal to a multiple or
even fraction of the dynamo frequency. It should be observed,
referring to ib, that the conversion to a high potential is also
effected when the discharger d d, which is shown in the sketch, is
omitted. But the effects which are produced by currents which
rise instantly to high values, as in a disruptive discharge, are
entirely different from those produced by dynamo currents which
rise and fall harmonically. So, for instance, there might be in a
given case a number of makes and breaks at d d equal to just
twice the frequency of the dynamo, or in other words, there may
be the same number of fundamental oscillations as would be pro-
p.317
duced without the discharge gap, and there might even not be any
quicker superimposed vibration ; yet the differences of potential at
the various points of the circuit, the impedance and other pheno-
mena, dependent upon the rate of change, will bear no similarity in
the two cases. Thus, when working with currents discharging dis-
ruptively, the element chiefly to be considered is not the frequency,
as a student might be apt to believe, but the rate of change per
unit of time. With low frequencies in a certain measure the same
effects may be obtained as with high frequencies, provided the rate
of change is sufficiently great. So if a low frequency current is
raised to a potential of, say, 75,000 volts, and the high tension cur-
rent passed through a series of high resistance lamp filaments, the
importance of the rarefied gas surrounding the filament is clearly
noted, as will be seen later; or, if a low frequency current of several
thousand amperes is passed through a metal bar, striking phe-
nomena of impedance are observed, just as with currents of high
frequencies. But it is, of course, evident that with low frequency
currents it is impossible to obtain such rates of change per unit of
time as with high frequencies, hence the effects produced by the
latter are much more prominent. It is deemed advisable to
make the preceding remarks, inasmuch as many more recently
described effects have been unwittingly identified with high
frequencies. Frequency alone in reality does not mean anything,
except when an undisturbed harmonic oscillation is considered.
In the branch iiib a similar disposition to that in ib is illustrated,
with the difference that the currents discharging through the gap
d d are used to induce currents in the secondary s of a trans-
former T. In such case the secondary should be provided with an
adjustable condenser for the purpose of tuning it to the primary.
lib illustrates a plan of alternate current high frequency
conversion which is most frequently used and which is found to
be most convenient. This plan has been dwelt upon in detail on
previous occasions and need not be described here.
Some of these results were obtained by the use of a high
frequency alternator. A description of such machines will be
found in my original paper before the American Institute of
Electrical Engineers, and in periodicals of that period, notably
in THE ELECTRICAL ENGINEER of March 18, 1891.
I will now proceed with the experiments.
Quoteendquote
pic replay:
Thank you Lady @jeanna
Now we need to know what each symbol is, or its modern equivalent.
Jesus
Thank you jesus. The pic looks great on its side and the letters are clear. That microfiche keeps looking better!
OK I want to add some more from a later part of that same lecture because for me the 2 concepts are the same.
There is such a lot of detail we do not need in our post tesla world. The details about how to control the sparking machinery and the ways to make lights etc. But here is another segment with a picture that relates to the above drawing.
Always remember, we are using a transistor in place of his spark gaps.
This is Tesla's 3 lamps example.
jeanna
Quotebegin quote
Referring to Fig. 1830, B and BJ are very stout copper bars
connected at their lower ends to plates c and c 1 respectively, of a
condenser, the opposite plates of the latter being connected to the
terminals of the secondary s of a high-tension transformer, the
primary p of which is supplied with alternating currents from an
ordinary low-frequency dynamo & or distribution circuit. The
p339
condenser discharges through an adjustable gap d d as usual. By
establishing a rapid vibration it was found quite easy to perform
the following curious experiment. The bars B and B1 were joined
at the top by a low-voltage lamp L3 ; a little lower was placed by
means of clamps c c, a 50-volt lamp L2 ; and still lower another 100-
volt lamp L1 ; and finally, at a certain distance below the latter
lamp, an exhausted tube T. By carefully determining the po-
sitions of these devices it was found practicable to maintain them
all at their proper illuminating power. Yet they were all con-
nected in multiple arc to the two stout copper bars and required
widely different pressures. This experiment requires of course
some time for adjustment but is quite easily performed.
In Figs. 1835 and 1836', two other experiments are illustrated
which, unlike the previous experiment, do not require very care-
ful adjustments. In Fig. 183b, two lamps, L1 and L2, the former a
p340
100-volt and the latter a 50-volt are
placed in certain positions as
indicated, the 100-volt lamp being below the 50-volt lamp. When
the arc is playing at d d and the sudden discharges are passed
through the bars B B,, the 50-volt lamp will, as a rule, burn brightly,
or at least this result is easily secured, while the 100-volt lamp
will burn very low or remain quite dark. Fig. 183b. Now the
bars B B! may be joined at the top by a thick cross bar B2 and it
is quite easy to maintain the 100-volt lamp at full candle-power
while the 50-volt lamp remains dark, Fig. 183c. These results,
as I have pointed out previously, should not be considered to be
due exactly to frequency but rather to the time rate of change
which may be great, even with low frequencies. A great many
other results of the same kind, equally interesting, especially to
those who are only used to manipulate steady currents, may be
obtained and they afford precious clues in investigating the na-
ture of electric currents.
In the preceding experiments I have already had occasion to
show some light phenomena and it would now be proper to study
these in particular ; but to make this investigation more com-
plete I think it necessary to make first a few remarks on the
subject of electrical resonance which has to be always observed
in carrying out these experiments.
Quoteend quote
OK now, I will post the 2 tier.
Later I will change and fix it to more resemble the 3 lights drawing fig 183a,b,c.
For now, I just want to put this together for everybody on one page.
Please note all the different frequencies and voltages coming off the 2 secondaries of the main jt toroid.
The primary joule thief to the left has a basic jt light lighting and 2 secondary coils on the toroid.
One of them is lighting a few lights. I think I called it 1S2. Note the freq and volts.
The other main secondary coil goes to another breadboard, which is shown. On that breadboard are all those circuits that are being fed off that primary toroid from its larger secondary. Please note all the different frequencies and voltages here too.
These different circuits are using the inductance of 2 or 3 and sometimes 4 inductor coils.
On the breadboard, the second level toroid (on the right) is not a joule thief because it has no other jt parts. It is a multiply wound inductor. It has the bifilar wound and the pickup wound.
Depending on which wire is connected where, the volts and freq changes.
I believe this is the most efficient arrangement.
The resistor on the bjtc is 480ohms
Sorry for the ugly pic, I will do something about it, but not today. ;)
jeanna
Lady
Here are 2 graphics that when viewed with the first one will maybe make your point clear.
Jesus
Lady @jeanna
I am confused with your two tiers drawing.
Is it this what you mean?
Jesus
I realy love what your doing noticed one main difference on the tesla picture ac is open spark gaps dc are all quenched spark gaps should make note of this as it tells something about the nature of electric fields.
Martin
@jesus,
You are awesome. Thanks for the help.
I am confused by the 2 tier also.
When I came to the 2 drawings I posted here, along with Tesla's descriptions,
and realizing that the spark itself is not important in any way except to produce the switching ,
which collapses the field and makes the big bemf happen and frequently etc
I knew why I had been "shown" the 2 tier.
Remember, it was when it slipped from my fingers and landed exactly in one hole of the breadboard that all the lights got bright, that I saved the circuit.
I have been struggling to describe it ever since, but I think it is something like the 2 examples I have posted.
1- There is a regular joule thief with a basic joule thief light (bjtl)
2- There are 2 secondaries wound on the basic toroid
2a- one of them lights up to 3 leds in series
2b-one of them has many turns and feeds its AC volts into a breadboard, which I called the second tier.
3-There is a toroid on the second tier breadboard which is wound like a bjt with a secondary.It has a pirmary bifilar and a secondary of many turns. These are basically acting like inductors here.
This is because the current has a path through all the wires. There is no transformer effect happening in the second tier.
There can be. I have also been able to create a secondary transformer effect in addition to the basic light circuits I have shown here by winding more turns over the one already in use. (So, that would be 2 additional secondaries, one on the first tier with the basic joule thief and one on the second tier I just described.) But it is these induction circuits I want to look at. There is a current path that is different in each one of them.
There is something very interesting happening here, and I can only see some of it right now, and I know there is more, and hints to the "more" and how to achieve more separate powerful effects are given in the Tesla lectures. (I think, anyway.)
Right now, the total voltage is not as high as the single secondary wires.
But, sometimes the best way to find the missing piece in a jigsaw puzzle, is to move away and play with other parts of it.
thank you so much,
jeanna
-----
Hi Martin,
Thank you and welcome. I hope you are wanting to experiment with this.
I do not know what quenched spark gaps means, or its implications.
I am focusing on letting the joule thief transistor make the same effect as those sparks. In these examples Tesla says he was making use of the sparks only to create the pulses and he was controlling the rate of pulsing, as he moved forward to his many conclusions using them for the switching device.
I am hoping many others who want to explore the ac effects made from this kind of thing will join in and experiment. And, if you would like to, please feel free to report your experiments with us.
BTW we are all different and all of us have slightly different goals and ways to approach these puzzles. I believe we all benefit when we share our ideas and experiments with each other.
thank you,
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 03:27:38 PM
@jesus,
...
1- There is a regular joule thief with a basic joule thief light (bjtl)
2- There are 2 secondaries wound on the basic toroid
2a- one of them lights up to 3 leds in series
2b-one of them has many turns and feeds its AC volts into a breadboard, which I called the second tier.
3-There is a toroid on the second tier breadboard which is wound like a bjt with a secondary.It has a pirmary bifilar and a secondary of many turns. These are basically acting like inductors here.
...
jeanna
What confuses me is the Led marked as D.
If the circuit I made is correct with the tiers connections, then this Led will be working with the AA battery voltage only.
That is it is connected between the positive and negative of the AA battery.
Maybe you can make an effort and check if the connections are correct and clarify that detail for us.
Jesus
Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 18, 2009, 05:44:16 PM
What confuses me is the Led marked as D.
Maybe you can make an effort and check if the connections are correct and clarify that detail for us.
Hi jesus,
Oh, now I understand your circuit with "D".
Maybe this will help,
Both the legs of "D" are in the battery rail of the second tier.
But
only one wire from the secondary of the first tier(red wire) is in the neg rail of the second tier.
There is one other wire in that negative rail. It is a wire from the neg side of the light "C"
The other leg of the "D" is in the pos of the battery rail
The only other connection to that is the center tap of the bifilar of that toroid inductor.
If I put the 2 red wires into the battery rail of this breadboard the effect is weak. It is ac.
It is not a dc circuit and only a little of its energy can be used.
It makes a very weak joule thief battery, because it is ac.
That is the reason I am trying to make the circuit diagram from tesla's light experiments work with the 2 tier.
I will see if I can move some lines around on your drawing. It may work.
My eyes are tired today and it may take a little more than today to straighten this out. I am grateful to you for your help.
jeanna
edit
here is a trial at a mod of your schematic.
Thank you Lady @jeanna
I noticed that you put the battery positive to the side instead of in the center tap of the BJT.
You left the center tap unconnected.
Is it like that the way you have yours?
Jesus
Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 18, 2009, 09:23:54 PM
Thank you Lady @jeanna
I noticed that you put the battery positive to the side instead of in the center tap of the BJT.
You left the center tap unconnected.
Is it like that the way you have yours?
Jesus
oops
The first tier is all that on the left side and it is just a regular jt with a secondary.
the center tap is in the normal way.
The center tap on the second tier is only attached to the pos side of the "D" light.
If I reverse that light it and one or 2 others go out. It is strongly polarized.
I probably made other mistakes too. Please let me know what else.
;)
thanks,
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 09:33:16 PM
oops
The first tier is all that on the left side and it is just a regular jt with a secondary.
the center tap is in the normal way.
The center tap on the second tier is only attached to the pos side of the "D" light.
If I reverse that light it and one or 2 others go out. It is strongly polarized.
I probably made other mistakes too. Please let me know what else.
;)
thanks,
jeanna
Thank you Lady @jeanna !
I will make some changes for your consideration as soon as I can.
Jesus
Actually jesus,
the point of showing that 2 tier circuit is NOT that there is anything sacred about it. In fact I have moved some wires and pins around a couple of times since the beginning.
The point of examining it is that it is an example of the concept Tesla was trying to put out in his 1892-4 lectures.
It is possible to have 5 different outputs and 5 different voltage/frequencies coming off ONE AC line. (more too)
This is what I want to explore.
I think when you have an ac circuit you are able to make a branch in a parallel way that delivers whatever voltage and frequency you want, just by playing with the inductors and probably some caps for extra oscillation within just that segment of the overall circuit.
This kind of thing is being done in our electronic doo dads. They have a wall wart that rectifies and steps down the voltage to 5 or 10 or 3 volts and then the appliance runs just fine.
My thinking is that we can follow that very same plan and use ac. and that way all the current returns to the source except for the eensy bit that the appliance actually took.
But this is my idea.
Please explore yours if you have a different one. And join me if you would like to.
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 09:45:06 PM
Actually jesus,
the point of showing that 2 tier circuit is NOT that there is anything sacred about it. In fact I have moved some wires and pins around a couple of times since the beginning.
The point of examining it is that it is an example of the concept Tesla was trying to put out in his 1892-4 lectures.
It is possible to have 5 different outputs and 5 different voltage/frequencies coming off ONE AC line. (more too)
This is what I want to explore.
I think when you have an ac circuit you are able to make a branch in a parallel way that delivers whatever voltage and frequency you want, just by playing with the inductors and probably some caps for extra oscillation within just that segment of the overall circuit.
This kind of thing is being done in our electronic doo dads. They have a wall wart that rectifies and steps down the voltage to 5 or 10 or 3 volts and then the appliance runs just fine.
My thinking is that we can follow that very same plan and use ac. and that way all the current returns to the source except for the eensy bit that the appliance actually took.
But this is my idea.
Please explore yours if you have a different one. And join me if you would like to.
jeanna
Ok
That means that I dont need to bother on doing a new schematic.
Jesus
QuoteOk
That means that I dont need to bother on doing a new schematic.
Jesus
not unless you want to.
It might help someone who does not understand it, though.
I think it is a worthwhile thing to do, just not necessary.
I will be using that or a part of that for experiments and it has helped me a lot just to have it in a somewhat normal style.
I Tried to make a schematic a while back, and I was not able to do it.
You have helped me a lot by doing this.
thank you,
jeanna
the quenching has to do with stoping the current flow for the DC arc butch lafonte has some unique things for magnets but one shows a stacking of washers across magnetic poles and made me think that this is like beads stacking in an electrostatic field.
i wonder if you put two diodes together for a small ampmeter so that the diodes could connect to the same point physical location what it would read as there could be stationery rotating charges without linear flow along the circuit.
just a thought as if so it could possibly run an induction motor or a small stepper motor
Martin
Hi everybody,
I was looking around for help with inductors today and found 2 calculation sites.
I like the first one better, but they are both probably great.
http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/coil_calc.aspx (http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/coil_calc.aspx)
and
http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/ (http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/)
The progression looks good on the 66pacific site.
If you start with your coil you get the henries then you plunk that result into the next one.
have a look,
jeanna
@ Jeanna:
I just thought I would pop in over here to see what is going on. Very nice work! I am all about ac and, I have now learned (thank to the scope) that even the pulsed dc I have been working with has ac components to it.
I look forward to seeing what happens.
Bill
@all
Here is @jeannas idea of 2 tiers schematic.
I hope it may benefit someone.
Jesus
the off times of a spark gap are fast....
;D
if you try the neo zap tap from the magnets ...
i have lit bulbs as showen on youtube .. i just never posted the videos ... pretty sure you can light many more than 1 60 w bulb ... ;D
o right ac and spark gaps
well if you had 2 mots .... pos and neg ... and a relay we can have some fun ... it likes to run slow ..
and if you used the relay insted of the secondary you can force the magic kick out the secondary of the mot ... to your load
but 1 wire hook up should be used ... meaning powering the relay then the mot primary ..
or some heavy duty blocking diodes so it wont feed back to the relay and burn it out ...
agin too many thousand ways ...
ist
i guess it all depends on its use ...
I am wondering if this joule thief output can be used in a way that keeps the frequency that has been established by the primary, yet gets run through another inductor or a tank circuit. This will keep the oscillations going, and offer a mechanism to control them while redirecting the energy to a particular appliance for use.
I doctored a pic a little just for illustration.
Here it is.
jeanna
how bout 2 neon bulbs or a burnt out tractor work light ...
as vacume spark gaps ...
ist!
get it fast enough you got ark lighting .....
I have saved a burned out spot light. How do I connect it up? The little button on the bottom and the threaded side wall? Can a joule thief?
I have lots of them that have 333khz and higher. All I need to do is ramp n amp it up with more coils I think...
Wanna help? (I realize you are moving. It is hard now. It is OK to save this til later too.)
jeanna
you know i will help any way i can ...
but this is an easy job ...
we just need a tiny tesla coil ill show you scary power ... lol
there is 1 reason and only 1 why the t coil is not ou ...
lol
cuz who has rectified it .... ;) :D if we had a t coil with properly spaced contacts to diodes... well
i need not say more on that one ....
ist!
Innovation on that note
May I suggest a revisit to Avromenko's pat 6,104,107 and his use of the blocking capacitor typically it is used in transmission of data and relates to dc over ac signals and the probability of dc cumulative effects when signals are sent too close together and create a log jam. you going to run into the problem when you apply the idea to a real load. or at least keep it in mind for when you find yourself getting unexpected results.
Hello all..
I am glad you have the AC thread going. I like the idea of the Tesla coil. The AC is a very cool part of the pickup coil!
-Altrez
Quote from: jeanna on June 18, 2009, 09:45:06 PM
Actually jesus,
the point of showing that 2 tier circuit is NOT that there is anything sacred about it. In fact I have moved some wires and pins around a couple of times since the beginning.
The point of examining it is that it is an example of the concept Tesla was trying to put out in his 1892-4 lectures.
It is possible to have 5 different outputs and 5 different voltage/frequencies coming off ONE AC line. (more too)
This is what I want to explore.
I think when you have an ac circuit you are able to make a branch in a parallel way that delivers whatever voltage and frequency you want, just by playing with the inductors and probably some caps for extra oscillation within just that segment of the overall circuit.
This kind of thing is being done in our electronic doo dads. They have a wall wart that rectifies and steps down the voltage to 5 or 10 or 3 volts and then the appliance runs just fine.
My thinking is that we can follow that very same plan and use ac. and that way all the current returns to the source except for the eensy bit that the appliance actually took.
But this is my idea.
Please explore yours if you have a different one. And join me if you would like to.
jeanna
This sound very interesting to me and looks to be the right direction to be heading. When you say back to the source is this being done on a secondary=rectified into a battery or cap. while the primary AC is used and changed to power a load?
Quote from: stprue on June 19, 2009, 12:04:04 PM
This sound very interesting to me and looks to be the right direction to be heading. When you say back to the source is this being done on a secondary=rectified into a battery or cap. while the primary AC is used and changed to power a load?
Well, this is a tricky one to answer.
The short answer is no, that is not what I mean by back to the source. I think ac has inherently a back to the source built into it. It is a hunch. I want to experiment with it.
Please let me use a water metaphor.
Compare Niagara falls(DC) with the ocean(AC).
They are both very powerful.
Rectifying and returning the energy to the source battery is akin to hauling all the water from the lower river back up to the lake so it can fall over the turbines again.
I believe we have never explored how to use the ocean.
We might scoop up a funnel full of water and use its energy as it falls through the bottom the way we do with the falls, but we do not work with the moving waves in their powerful oscillations.
The ocean is powered by cosmic forces.
Not a mystery, just very large and beyond our local walls.
I think Tesla was discovering this and he left hints.
He was strapped by the need to use sparks to produce oscillations. As I have said before, happily, we have the transistor.
@All,
I have just made a pair of drawings that may help explain what I am up to and why I used the Tesla drawings.
They are the beginning of a larger study so I am calling them study 1a, 1b.
This is new territory for me, and I am enjoying the prospect of discovering what this is about.
I appreciate any help or company in this effort/play.
And, of course, what you may want to set up may be quite different from what I do.
Just, please, if you want to rectify the output and put it into a cap or battery for later use, use the main joule thief thread next door for that.
You will get a lot more supporting company there anyway.
jeanna
tesla wrote an article relating this phenomina to water hammering in plumbing where all the tension is even at all points along the line at the same time stating that the speed was more inportant than the volume of flow but the secondary volume must be concidered for the pressure rise. caps may be soften this effect in the secondery circuit.
Martin
@all
There was this forum member asking me this question:
Quote
I am not too good at drawing circuits, and I want to ask you how it is that there is no direct line that goes to the battery from the emitter of the basic jt transistor?
I will answer it here so any other member that has the same question can benefit from the answer. Please correct me if I am wrong.
The battery is not connected directly to the base of the transistor because the winding that comes from the JT to the base called the trigger, is the one that provides the positive working voltage.
The battery positive is connected to the center tap of the JT and it is divided into two positive signals, one directed to the transistor's base and the other to the transistor collector....
Jesus
Quote from: nievesoliveras on June 19, 2009, 02:14:11 PM
@all
There was this forum member asking me this question:
I will answer it here so any other member that has the same question can benefit from the answer. Please correct me if I am wrong.
The battery is not connected directly to the base of the transistor because the winding that comes from the JT to the base called the trigger, is the one that provides the positive working voltage.
The battery positive is connected to the center tap of the JT and it is divided into two positive signals, one directed to the transistor's base and the other to the transistor collector....
Jesus
QuoteI want to ask you how it is that there is no direct line that goes to the battery from the emitter of the basic jt transistor?
But it is.
The Emitter is connected to the neg of the battery.
I doubt if I will EVER forget that one! ;)
Jesus, He didn't say the base did he? I think he said Emitter???
jeanna
Oh dear,
The lights keep going out.
Maybe this is fussy.
I put a known jt - the widow- with 2 secondaries in the basic spot.
I am using the larger secondary for now.Without any load on this secondary the volts reads 32v peak to peak.
It readily lights up 4 leds in series and still shows around 24volts across the secondary leads.
So, I put a toroid wound with 2 wires into this.
The fewer wires are in the spot parallel to the leds etc, and the more wires free to be transformed up.
But when I put the new transformer into the pins, the lights go out.. If I move the transformer over one light, then only one light goes out and the voltage remaining has dropped from 24 to 3.5v or even less.
?? ??
Is this normal behavior for a transformer?
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on June 19, 2009, 03:28:20 PM
But it is.
The Emitter is connected to the neg of the battery.
I doubt if I will EVER forget that one! ;)
Jesus, He didn't say the base did he? I think he said Emitter???
jeanna
Thank you @jeanna !
You are right he said emitter.
There is no direct connection drawn from the battery to the emitter of the transistor on the schematic because the connection is made using a ground symbol on the battery negative pole and another ground symbol at the transistor's emitter.
The person reading the schematic must assume that both are connected together.
The connection is drawn symbolically.
Jesus
OK test 1a and 1b didn't help, or didn't do anything except turn off the leds and stop the action in the previous parallel circuit. more work to do there, maybe.
Now, I will put a bifilar joule thief and maybe one with a secondary onto those main parallel leads.
This is basically to replicate the 2 tier, but in this more understandable circuit.
jeanna
hi All
just a question for possible thought why not build a double JT around a center tap transformer if the batteries are on the center tap leg and paired transistors are at the ends of the center tap coils and you take the signal from the secondary side to drive the pair of transistors in opposite directions the power should be better and the output more ac in quality having spikes both pos and neg of course the output may be something to look out for it may solve some of your power problems.
Martin
Quote from: nueview on June 20, 2009, 01:49:23 PM
hi All
just a question for possible thought why not build a double JT around a center tap transformer if the batteries are on the center tap leg and paired transistors are at the ends of the center tap coils and you take the signal from the secondary side to drive the pair of transistors in opposite directions the power should be better and the output more ac in quality having spikes both pos and neg of course the output may be something to look out for it may solve some of your power problems.
Martin
Well you can definitively do that , because that is what is done right now ...
But regular transformer are made for 60hz function , that is in my view a limiting factor , but it can also be use in a second core application to get the high freq down to 60hz...
Mark
@ MK1
i think you need to build one before predicting the out put will be glad to post a picture of mine any add on circuits go between the secondery coil end opposite the transister drive hookup and ground . mine runs on 12 volt but could be more or less components make the difference.
the goal was stated as getting to higher power if i got what Jeanna was saying in the post.
Martin
Quote from: nueview on June 20, 2009, 02:27:38 PM
@ MK1
i think you need to build one before predicting the out put will be glad to post a picture of mine any add on circuits go between the secondery coil end opposite the transister drive hookup and ground . mine runs on 12 volt but could be more or less components make the difference.
the goal was stated as getting to higher power if i got what Jeanna was saying in the post.
Martin
LoL Welcome to the jt , i already did that , and i was not the first one . And don't worry i rarely assume this stuff , do you have a high freq transformer ? Like a mot ? or other high Q device ? Then yes it is limited at 60 cycle .
@ all or may i saw those that listen to what i have so say ...
i have a goody i posted next door .
sorry again MK1 but it's a standard radio shack iron core 120 to 24 volt center tapped 2 amp output transformer and it ain't putting out 60 cycle .
Martin
Quote from: nueview on June 20, 2009, 02:46:57 PM
sorry again MK1 but it's a standard radio shack iron core 120 to 24 volt center tapped 2 amp output transformer and it ain't putting out 60 cycle .
Martin
Very well then ! please give us more info , you got some readings , what freq do you have on the secondary ? and voltage what , and what source 1.5 volt ? saturateble core or not.
please tell us !
Mark
the transisters are darlington pair
the voltage as stated is 12 volt
the frequency is about 15 k hertz
the original circuit came from a coleman electric lantern about 20 years ago
i just boosted it up you should be able to as well
the components are are what it's all about .
Really liked the magnet point it makes perfect sense.
Martin
@MK1
I like that magnet idea. I will try it this afternoon.
thanks as always you have great ideas.
Quote from: nueview on June 20, 2009, 01:49:23 PM
hi All
just a question for possible thought why not build a double JT around a center tap transformer
I am not following this.
The JT is a centertapped transformer, so are you saying to wind 2 of them?
i
Quotef the batteries are on the center tap leg and paired transistors are at the ends of the center tap coils and you take the signal from the secondary side to drive the pair of transistors in opposite directions the power should be better and the output more ac in quality having spikes both pos and neg
The secondary already produces AC, so that is where I am beginning with this.It seems the tuning of the toroid and the number of winds and the transistor etc all play an important part in making a good jt circuit.
I tried having one jt power another. The lights went very dim, but then I found the second transistor was not needed, as the pulse from the one, was enough.
Also, I can control the frequency of the whole thing by controlling the resistor at the base of the transistor ("base resistor") the higher the base resistor goes, the higher the frequency. to a point but the point is very high.
The trouble is that as this frequency rises, the total voltage decreases.
Thanks Martin,
Do you have a pic or a drawing that will show your results with this?
thanks,
jeanna
Quote from: Mk1 on June 20, 2009, 02:34:09 PM
i have a goody i posted next door .
That really is a goody.
I need to go for an hour. When I return I am going to try that immediately.
very cool
thanks,
jeanna
@Martin
Just so you know , usually we use 1.5 volts in the experiment done here , and we use a secondary one a regular jt , the same way you sue your transformer to make a inverter.
I bet with 12 v you already got over 200 watts .
Mark
this circuit uses three coils and two transistors size and core do not really matter it can be an air core if you would like or a ferrite bead or a transformer some will give higher frequency i am sure i will work from the transformer stated above it's primary is 120 volt and the standard secondery is 24 volt and center tapped the darlington pair transistors are used to drive the two haves of this secondery in opposite directions the battery is connected to the center tap and this will give a positive at either end of the two secondery coils were the transisters are placed so that it willdrive the two halves one will be on the other off like a flip-flop oscillater . the bases are connected to the primary 120 volt side at one end so that as it move pos and neg it will be driven to fire the appropriate transistor and turn off the other these bases have a common connection to the 120 volt coil through resisters and cap or caps depending on your transistors the other end of the 120 volt coil can be connected to ground through what ever you want to drive another coil or a flourescent tube lights so on. i think i still have it on breadboard in one of my boxes so will see if i can dig it out and post it with a picture.
DO NOT TOUCH THE END OF THE PRIMARY SIDE WITH ANYTHING BUT INSULATED PLIERS AS IT WILL BURN YOU LITTERALLY
Martin
MK1
you got the idea but i drove my transisters from the output side with a feed back everything else is the same though.
good luck and enjoy.
Well everybody,
This is interesting,
I have a MK.8 in the bjt spot with everything set up. (I was tuning it with a hi value pot and it is high frequency low voltage now)
On the scope it reads 43-44v (128KHz) across the secondary wires.
I added the magnet and it jumped down to 14volts!!
I moved it around a bit and in some places it got even worse!
So, I guess it may not always work. Or it may make the frequency even higher, which is what happened when kubikop added a magnet to his on the youtube video.
But, this is what this post is about:
This MK.8 has another secondary wrapped around it.
It has only about 8-10 turns and the wires are
right on top of the others.This other secondary is just wrapped in a straight coil and when I look at it alone, it has the usual lousy ___/\___/\___
type of wave. It is 14volts by itself.
BUT, I decided to add the 2 wires together in series, just to see. (I had made this winding for another reason so I never tried this before)
They added together to become 50volts! OK that is good...
Better than that, the wave of the 2 together was the same
excellent wave that the MK.8 has.
Now, this means, if it follows with others, that I can start with a MK1 design and add more layers over for a higher voltage but I do not need to bother with the fancy winding.
Or, I can start with a long regular winding like a spool of wire for instance, and ADD the mk1 type of winding on top of it and add it in series.
Now, Mark, this brings me to a question I have had for a long time.
You said way back that you devised the MK2-MK16 because you found the voltage was better that way. You said you found you could not add to it and get as much more as when you wound the extra wires together.
Can you give any more statistics than that?
Do you have any numbers from your experiments?
I am asking because I can add to this MK.8 and probably fill it up with wire like the "zebra with kynar". (a very little toroid that pumps out 68volts. with 74 secondary turns).
It is possible that this multiplication of ac voltage is easier than I am supposing.
thanks,
@Martin,
If I am following you, you are putting in 12 volts into your inverter and getting 120 volts out. Is that right?
QuoteMK1
you got the idea but i drove my transisters from the output side with a feed back everything else is the same though.
good luck and enjoy.
Oh wait.
You are putting the output back into the input?
Please be more specific.
jeanna
@jeanna
Try the magnet one the one with the jt coil on one side , it is not for the mk type sine i took care of the dead spot with the 180 coils. but this is helpfull with the altrez type design. try with the big one also if the magnet is too strong it will send the excess into space.
Mark
Edit jeanna i believe they can be put together easy if you reverse the phase , it would be easier if the second pick up coil is wound in starting at the opposing end.
Quote from: Mk1 on June 20, 2009, 06:44:38 PM
Try the magnet one the one with the jt coil on one side
...
... helpfull with the altrez type design. try with the big one also if the magnet is too strong it will send the excess into space.
Oh this is one of those days that things break in my hand.
The MK.8 has the bifilar on one side and the MK1 type secondary starting and ending on the side opposite the primary. It gives good power with the right transistor.
The breadboard had that mk8 because last week I was tuning it to the 2N3055. and that was the reason the volts were lower than before. But I didn't realize what was going on until the pot collapsed and stopped being a resistor.
Maybe the magnet was too strong, and maybe there was never a dead spot anyway. So, you are thinking the magnet helps with the dead spot. It makes sense that it would.
Thanks. I will put this MK.8 together with a 2N3904 again. the "filter" core works better with them anyway.
I will use the 2N3055 for the chokes and the biggg ones. Then I will use the magnet and see.
Maybe I will dig out a hazens style and try the magnet on them too.
thanks,
jeanna
Quote from: Mk1 on June 20, 2009, 04:25:28 PM
@Martin
Just so you know , usually we use 1.5 volts in the experiment done here , and we use a secondary one a regular jt , the same way you sue your transformer to make a inverter.
I bet with 12 v you already got over 200 watts .
Mark
I read somewhere that that circuit has a problem with the capacitors orientation.
The capacitor positive side goes to the collector instead of away from it.
Jesus
I just finished reading the posts here
I think this thread will lead to some interesting stuff
:)
To me lighting things with different voltages and the dead spots on toroids both sound like some kind of standing wave .
If I am right they would move as the frequency changes .
Another thought
I have always believed that Radiant energy required high voltage and high speeds ( a high rate of change )
I think a MOT JT can provide both
gary
@ jeanna
JT outputs pulsed DC. If you want AC you should use a circuit like the following. Try it. I think you will like it. This is a standard flip-flop circuit that I modified for use with 1.5 volts and a toroid. I have not tested it but it should work. If you want to you can consider it a dual JT, although that would not be quite correct.
Hi xee,
Thanks for this idea.
Yes, the jt does put out pulsed dc, but the secondary doesn't necessarily do that.
Actually, the reason I stick with the MK1 designs is because the secondary IS AC.
It is a very nice looking wave -/\/\-, or at least a -/^~\/ - kind of thing
Sometimes if I can afford the voltage loss, a cap makes it look like a perfect sine wave.
I have not found another way to wind the secondary that gives this effect, so I stick with it.
However, because of the way it goes together, it is really hard to add more turns to it.
That is why the possibility of adding to it with regular turns on top of the mk1 as another layer looked so good to me, yesterday.
I haven't been able to follow up on that, though.
Yesterday, the pot just collapsed into a non resistor.
This happens a lot with those pots. Very finiky.
Or, there is a possibility that they are arcing over the wiper somehow.
Have you ever tried to make a MK1 type pick up yourself?
thank you,
you always help a lot,
jeanna
Actually, from my small experience with my scope, as well as looking at other JT scope shots, my regular JT's (with no secondary) put out AC as well. It may very well be pulsed DC but there is for sure an AC component to this, just like the earth battery.
Bill
Hi all
i see Xee2 got it figured out i could not get my picture to post but i am not real computer savy.
but he is right about a good sign wave with this circuit i used darlington transistors as they switched power faster in more bulk but this would be hard to do at low voltage.
Martin
@xee,
@nueview,
I think I understand what you are suggesting??
Are you suggesting the second transistor will do what the second set of sparks produce in the drawing?
It might.
I was thinking along those lines when I put together the 2 tier, and found that the transistor was not being used.
The thing about adding another transistor is that it would be very easy for one to cancel out the other. Wouldn't there be a way to use the pulses as they are and they are fairly high in many jt circuits, and then just make more separate secondaries that work off the pulses?
just thinking,
jeanna
a dual transistor circuit is not really required to get AC at the pickup coil.
starting with 3 volt instead of 1.5 would surely help tho.
what is needed to get AC is rise and fall of the current over a time period.
on the pickup there are no reference to a "zero" voltage point.
you could make one with a center tapped coils.
the AC voltage could be biased relatively to an other circuit or earth point it does bot matter it still would have 2 polarities, high and low.
in AC form you can view them as + and -, but only to a reference point.
what a cap is storing is a potential difference.
Quote from: jeanna on June 21, 2009, 10:58:07 PM
Have you ever tried to make a MK1 type pick up yourself?
No. I do not understand most of what Mk1 is saying. I also do not understand most of what ist is saying. I think maybe I just do not understand the Canadian language. They seem to have learned some kind of electronics that I do not know anything about.
@ Pirate88179
Quote from: Pirate88179 on June 22, 2009, 12:07:03 AM
Actually, from my small experience with my scope, as well as looking at other JT scope shots, my regular JT's (with no secondary) put out AC as well. It may very well be pulsed DC but there is for sure an AC component to this, just like the earth battery.
Bill
For a while I was posting both the positive and negative outputs from the pickup coil. But I stopped because the negative output is so small. If you reverse the diode in one of my JT circuits you will get the negative peak voltage instead of the positive peak voltage. In all of my circuits using a pickup coil for the output, the negative peak is so small it is can not supply much power. The negative output is produced by the current generating the magnetic field and this has a slow rate of current change and therefore generates a small voltage in the pickup coil. When the transistor turns off there is a very rapid change in current and thus a large voltage is generated in the pickup coil. You should be able to see that on the scope in the DC mode with the center of the vertical axis set at ground. But, just because that is what I am getting does not mean everyone else will get the same thing.
NOTE: The polarity of the largest output can be reversed by reversing the leads from the pickup coil. I always call the largest output positive.
Quote from: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 01:31:20 AM
The thing about adding another transistor is that it would be very easy for one to cancel out the other. Wouldn't there be a way to use the pulses as they are and they are fairly high in many jt circuits, and then just make more separate secondaries that work off the pulses?
The circuit forces only one tansistor to be on at a time and forces both positive and negative pulses to be equal.
Quote from: xee2 on June 22, 2009, 01:56:14 AM
No. I do not understand most of what Mk1 is saying. I also do not understand most of what ist is saying. I think maybe I just do not understand the Canadian language. They seem to have learned some kind of electronics that I do not know anything about.
Ah yes.
It took me a long time and it took a lot of patience from both of us (some of it was in a raft of pm's) to get me to understand what MK1 was doing. I do think it is brilliant.
The Canadian they speak is french. That helped me a lot. to know that an "a" means "one" sometimes but can also mean "at" because that is what it means in french. Anyway, I will try to help if you want me to.
Here, for a conceptual starters, try this:
the coil is wrapped over the toroid then through the center in the same way throughout. It begins at one spot and progresses to the left a number of turns then turns "progression" direction and goes back to where it started. Then it crosses over (*) the primary or a blank spot and continues on the other side up the same number of turns and again returns to the beginning spot.
* when it crosses over, you can pull out a few inches of wire as in a center tap.
Try it with 10 turns in each way and see what you get.
The "tuning" of the primary to the toroid is important, too, but even though MK1 insists it must be done in the beginning, I believe that as long as you are in the ballpark with a certain toroid, you can fine tune it later.
He disagrees with me on that point, and he may well be correct.
In a way, you could think of it as a center tapped secondary if you connect it that way.
But connect it from beginning to end for the most volts. Then fine tune it for most volts output.
So, xee, give it a try and see what you get.
I like the way Hazens1 makes the primary. It is a wee bit less powerful than the true bifilar, but not much and a very good way to start tuning a toroid, because it is so easy to alter it.
jeanna
I think i would tend to agree with MK1 about the tuning first allot of what tesla did was about power structuring or getting from a high cycle to a lower cycle power curve or as in using the harmonic to do work at another level or should i say from another level as the article you posted talked about only wanting odd harmonics and from a DC any frequency could be attained this would have been important in early radio without tubes.
the article also talks about producing a high stress upon the system so if you push and pull at appropriate times you would double the stress upon the circuit more stress more effect
Martin
Hi everybody,
Here is a drawing of the 2 tier circuit in a different way.
I will probably need to change this some more, but I think it shows some of the interesting parts better than any previous drawings.
All of these figures are with a 10 ohm resistor at the battery. The fully charged AAA battery made the basic voltage (=voltage of basic JTC secondary) over 100 volts and I started to blow leds, so, I added the resistor.
The other oddment is the resolution of the scope.
For most figures the probe had to be on the x10 level because the voltage was off the chart otherwise.
But the scope sees more when it is "far away" at x10 than it does when it is at basic 1:1 probe strength.
I do not know how to resolve this.
So, this is what I have now. I hope you will find it interesting too.
jeanna
EDIT, in asking Bill to look at this I came across the description of "nested parallel circuits" I made that up of course, but I think it might help in figuring out what is going on here.
Quote from: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 05:32:56 PM
Hi everybody,
Here is a drawing of the 2 tier circuit in a different way.
I will probably need to change this some more, but I think it shows some of the interesting parts better than any previous drawings.
All of these figures are with a 10 ohm resistor at the battery. The fully charged AAA battery made the basic voltage (=voltage of basic JTC secondary) over 100 volts and I started to blow leds, so, I added the resistor.
The other oddment is the resolution of the scope.
For most figures the probe had to be on the x10 level because the voltage was off the chart otherwise.
But the scope sees more when it is "far away" at x10 than it does when it is at basic 1:1 probe strength.
I do not know how to resolve this.
So, this is what I have now. I hope you will find it interesting too.
jeanna
EDIT, in asking Bill to look at this I came across the description of "nested parallel circuits" I made that up of course, but I think it might help in figuring out what is going on here.
Hi Jeanna . Nice Drawing with those little coils :) do you want this to produce more voltage ? then if Yes we need to add a tank circuit . if you dont mind can i take your schematic and add to it . the next thing is multiply the outs, which one ? all of them need higher volts ? Ac and or Pulsed dc or rf ? .Very Busy enev thought I'm retired :) I have a 7 years old and she has two summer camp and bible camp back to back this summer as you know i am single so . i'll pop in and out and check up the progress .
Gadget
Quote from: jeanna on June 20, 2009, 08:42:58 PM
I will use the 2N3055 for the chokes and the biggg ones. Then I will use the magnet and see.
Maybe I will dig out a hazens style and try the magnet on them too.
thanks,
jeanna
Neo's do the same thing to the Hazen design, both change frequence and lower the voltage. I would like to know what the wave form looks like with magnets put in various place on a JT coil ie base collector primary! Could you post this for me...pretty please?
I wish I had a scope!!!!!
Quote from: jeanna on June 22, 2009, 10:29:12 AM
Ah yes.
It took me a long time and it took a lot of patience from both of us (some of it was in a raft of pm's) to get me to understand what MK1 was doing. I do think it is brilliant.
The Canadian they speak is french. That helped me a lot. to know that an "a" means "one" sometimes but can also mean "at" because that is what it means in french. Anyway, I will try to help if you want me to.
Here, for a conceptual starters, try this:
the coil is wrapped over the toroid then through the center in the same way throughout. It begins at one spot and progresses to the left a number of turns then turns "progression" direction and goes back to where it started. Then it crosses over (*) the primary or a blank spot and continues on the other side up the same number of turns and again returns to the beginning spot.
* when it crosses over, you can pull out a few inches of wire as in a center tap.
Try it with 10 turns in each way and see what you get.
The "tuning" of the primary to the toroid is important, too, but even though MK1 insists it must be done in the beginning, I believe that as long as you are in the ballpark with a certain toroid, you can fine tune it later.
He disagrees with me on that point, and he may well be correct.
In a way, you could think of it as a center tapped secondary if you connect it that way.
But connect it from beginning to end for the most volts. Then fine tune it for most volts output.
So, xee, give it a try and see what you get.
I like the way Hazens1 makes the primary. It is a wee bit less powerful than the true bifilar, but not much and a very good way to start tuning a toroid, because it is so easy to alter it.
jeanna
xee let me know if you figure out how to wind a mk style coil and please post some pics, I still don't think I'm doing it right!
Hi everyone,
I will attempt to make a short verbal description of the MK1.
Overview first:
All the winds go the same way...from over the top through the center and around and up again.
You will be wrapping the coil in 3 directions ultimately. (because it is a toroid, this means the mags move 4 times)
Start at the bottom and end at the bottom.
You will end up with 2 wires.
In this example the total winds will be 40.
OK here goes:
Starting at the bottom left side leave a nice long tail for later connections and
wrap the wire up 10 times
wrap one more then return to the bottom.
(if you don't understand this, draw 10 hatch marks on a paper then count the spaces in between them)
At the bottom, after you have wound 20 turns you are coming out the bottom, so go over the primary windings and continue through the center.
(you can pull out a few inches for a center tap before diving through the center again.)
Continue winding 10 more turns up the right side and
wind one more and
wind down the right side to the bottom.
The total turns is 40.
Leave a nice tail.
Cut
sand tails-connect, and - tune.
(of course, you can wind the opposite way from my description; but, the point is to stay wrapping the same way throughout.)
Keep the crossed wires in the center if possible and on the outside put the down wires in between the up wires.
======
QuoteNeo's do the same thing to the Hazen design, both change frequence and lower the voltage. I would like to know what the wave form looks like with magnets put in various place on a JT coil ie base collector primary! Could you post this for me...pretty please?
I wish I had a scope!!!!!
hmm, I will do what I can. As you may remember my scope does not have a backlight and there is a lot of glare.
The wave stays the same shape but it gets narrower and shorter.
As the frequency goes up (waves are skinnier and closer together) the voltage goes down. (peaks of the waves are not as tall.
Kubikop has a nice shot of this one on a video of a jt. He is showing the wave of a jt on his scope, the he says, "now, I want to show you something..." and he snaps 2 neos onto the toroid. bam! the wave crunches together and gets shorter. Same happens to my all the time. (I had seen this consistent paired-change while tuning the primary with a scope. Every time the volts went one way the freq went the other.)
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 12:33:28 PM
Hi everyone,
I will attempt to make a short verbal description of the MK1.
Overview first:
All the winds go the same way...from over the top through the center and around and up again.
You will be wrapping the coil in 3 directions ultimately. (because it is a toroid, this means the mags move 4 times)
Start at the bottom and end at the bottom.
You will end up with 2 wires.
In this example the total winds will be 40.
OK here goes:
Starting at the bottom left side leave a nice long tail for later connections and
wrap the wire up 10 times
wrap one more then return to the bottom.
(if you don't understand this, draw 10 hatch marks on a paper then count the spaces in between them)
At the bottom, after you have wound 20 turns you are coming out the bottom, so go over the top and the primary windings and continue through the center.
(you can pull out a few inches for a center tap before diving through the center again.)
Continue winding 10 more turns up the right side and
wind one more and
wind down the right side to the bottom.
The total turns is 40.
Leave a nice tail.
Cut
sand tails-connect, and - tune.
(of course, you can wind the opposite way from my description; but, the point is to stay wrapping the same way throughout.)
Keep the crossed wires in the center if possible and on the outside put the down wires in between the up wires.
======hmm, I will do what I can. As you may remember my scope does not have a backlight and there is a lot of glare.
The wave stays the same shape but it gets narrower and shorter.
As the frequency goes up (waves are skinnier and closer together) the voltage goes down. (peaks of the waves are not as tall.
Kubikop has a nice shot of this one on a video of a jt. He is showing the wave of a jt on his scope, the he says, "now, I want to show you something..." and he snaps 2 neos onto the toroid. bam! the wave crunches together and gets shorter. Same happens to my all the time. (I had seen this consistent paired-change while tuning the primary with a scope. Every time the volts went one way the freq went the other.)
jeanna
Jeanna thank you for the description, I will make another attempt at making the MK. You didn't make mention of the cross overs though! So I don't actually cross over any windings either outside or inside the diameters of the coil, right? Looking kinda of like an XXXX I'm guessing!
It needs to look like this //////////up and then returning ////////////////////down?
Quote from: gadgetmall on June 23, 2009, 08:25:30 AM
Hi Jeanna . Nice Drawing with those little coils :) do you want this to produce more voltage ? then if Yes we need to add a tank circuit . if you don't mind can i take your schematic and add to it
I was hoping you would...
The little coils is a paintbrush on photoshop. Imagine my delight to find that! One click makes a perfect circle and a line makes a coil. Changing the 'font size' changes the diameter. cool.
Quote. the next thing is multiply the outs, which one ? all of them need higher volts ? Ac and or Pulsed dc or rf ?
All of them, but one at a time for now, otherwise it is a jumble.
My preference is to start with a tank in one place then move it on to other places.
The tanks can be straight cores, or they can be additional jt cores.
QuoteVery Busy even thought I'm retired :)
yes, well now you have enough time to be really busy!! ;D
Thanks Gadget,
I added one more jt core last night and read some readings on meters.
This is going to be very interesting.
I want to clean up the glyph of the toroid a little so it can be used and expanded by people.
In its formal normal config it would have 5 wires.
I want the possibility to clearly add more secondaries off the one coil glyph too...
so it is clear that it is toroidal, and it is a transformer etc.
Oh good, I am glad you like the drawing. I am glad you are still here.
jeanna
OK here are 2 glyphs to use.
Feel free to change them for yourselves.
Even make suggestions... etc.
jeanna
Quote from: stprue on June 23, 2009, 01:02:33 PM
Jeanna thank you for the description, I will make another attempt at making the MK. You didn't make mention of the cross overs though! So I don't actually cross over any windings either outside or inside the diameters of the coil, right? Looking kinda of like an XXXX I'm guessing!
It needs to look like this //////////up and then returning ////////////////////down?
I thought I did?
Oh well sloppy cutting, I guess.
Yes there has to be a crossover.
Make it on the inside as we talked before. I think there is a pic of a blue toroid somewhere that makes it easier to see the cross over.
I think really what will happen will be:
\\\\\\\\\\\\ up and /////////// down, but when you do them make every effort to be ||||||||| on the outside.
That way the XXXXXXX will be on the inside where you have less room and an overlap is better anyway.
That ought to scramble anyones brain who has not tried to make one yet! ;)
I missed your post. I am sorry it took so long to answer.
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 03:00:44 PM
I thought I did?
Oh well sloppy cutting, I guess.
Yes there has to be a crossover.
Make it on the inside as we talked before. I think there is a pic of a blue toroid somewhere that makes it easier to see the cross over.
I think really what will happen will be:
\\\\\\\\\\\\ up and /////////// down, but when you do them make every effort to be ||||||||| on the outside.
That way the XXXXXXX will be on the inside where you have less room and an overlap is better anyway.
That ought to scramble anyones brain who has not tried to make one yet! ;)
I missed your post. I am sorry it took so long to answer.
jeanna
ALL OF MY COILS WOUND IN THE MK1 CONFIG CROSS ON THE INSIDE ... ;) ;D
IST!
Quote from: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 03:00:44 PM
I thought I did?
Oh well sloppy cutting, I guess.
Yes there has to be a crossover.
Make it on the inside as we talked before. I think there is a pic of a blue toroid somewhere that makes it easier to see the cross over.
If anybod has good pis'c of this winding please post for me ???
I think really what will happen will be:
\\\\\\\\\\\\ up and /////////// down, but when you do them make every effort to be ||||||||| on the outside.
That way the XXXXXXX will be on the inside where you have less room and an overlap is better anyway.
That ought to scramble anyones brain who has not tried to make one yet! ;)
I missed your post. I am sorry it took so long to answer.
jeanna
[/quote]
I will retry a very simple one to make sure I have it right. Not too long ago I made one with 26gauge mag wire. I made it exactly as you describe it. Going up when I got to the top I checked to make sure it was producing voltage which it was I believe like 70 or 80 volts, which considering I hadn't gone back down yet and it was only one side really good! I wound back down crossing over on the inside and remaining lllll on the out side and crap results! After throwing it and yelling a few choice words I began unwinding the back down windings and I watched the voltage go up. It looked like the way I was winding back down was canceling the winds up. Anyway I will try again!
IIL WIND ANOTHER ONE AND TAKE A FEW PICS HOW I HAVE DONE IT IN THE PAST ...
I NEED 1 ANYWAYS ....
IS
HOW BOUT A MK3 TWISTED LITZ STYLE PICKUP THEN USE 1 OF THE OUT PUTS FOR TRANSFORMER FEEDBACK TO THE OTHER WIRES ...
ILL JUST BUILD IT AND SHUT UP NOW ;D LOL
Quote from: innovation_station on June 23, 2009, 03:43:45 PM
IIL WIND ANOTHER ONE AND TAKE A FEW PICS HOW I HAVE DONE IT IN THE PAST ...
I NEED 1 ANYWAYS ....
Thank you for your assistance ;D
Yes, stprue,
It does go down in total height of the voltage spike.
I do have an advantage because of the little scope.
I have an opinion that there must be some difference between
_____|_____|_____|_____
and
____/^\___/^\___/^\___/
however I could be very wrong. Maybe with high enough frequency the spikes will come together and be enough.
But here is where the freq/voltage relationship comes in.
While tuning my primary and with the probe clips across the 2 secondary leads, I watched that every time the frequency went up, the voltage went down... and the reverse was true too. I was adjusting the base resistor, and I was also changing things by changing the number of turns.
So, if the frequency gets really high and the spikes are really close together, the voltage will be less too!
Now, back to your question...
You are correct.
The voltage does go down. Last week I got very upset after I had finished winding my mk1 around the biggo.
1/4 around, so up one side, the volts were around 90v. after finishing they were around 70v.
Then Mark just kept saying tune it tune it... so after I got the base resistor down to 90 ohm the frequency was down to 5.6KHz but the voltage was at 450vac. and I lit the fluoro tube for 5 1/4 hours.
OK?
Just have faith... it will be worth doing.
jeanna
@all
Ok ;D
I heard that some people around here , are having a hard time understanding my language , well ok point taken . I will try to address this situation , I believe to posses enough knowledge of this language to get my point across , but most of the time the spell check is deficient when it comes to directing me to the proper spelling word i need .
With those of my mind , i can supply all the information , any one needs , about the mk.
The first thing to understand is the jt coil location at 180 from each other , when you insert a pickup coil in the middle of them you collect 2 pulses one from each jt coils.
It can either cancel the rotation of the field or help it.
Guess which is witch?
Mark,
I really do not know how to answer that question.
First if you know the answer please just say it.
Second, I do not know the answer because this thing is oscillating, and that means that something has to change a lot. so, I think the one going all in one direction would be a bad choice.
Somehow, I do not think that is correct, but really the best way to make your point is to make it straight.
So, please tell me soon which one is better.
thanks
jeanna
@all
sorry double post
Quote from: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 05:24:24 PM
Mark,
I really do not know how to answer that question.
First if you know the answer please just say it.
Second, I do not know the answer because this thing is oscillating, and that means that something has to change a lot. so, I think the one going all in one direction would be a bad choice.
Somehow, I do not think that is correct, but really the best way to make your point is to make it straight.
So, please tell me soon which one is better.
thanks
jeanna
Sorry i was going universal with a picture , Btw is it there ?
If you look at the direction of the field created in the toroid by the jt coils , Look at the arrows on one side they collide and on the other side they push each other.
I thought the picture was enough but not really so i will not assume this quick explanation , so feel free to ask again , i have a master in art maybe to me images speak louder i guess.
Mark
@all
Please someone please donate a camera to Mk1, I would if I had an extra!
Quote from: jeanna on June 23, 2009, 04:18:59 PM
Yes, stprue,
It does go down in total height of the voltage spike.
I do have an advantage because of the little scope.
I have an opinion that there must be some difference between
_____|_____|_____|_____
and
____/^\___/^\___/^\___/
however I could be very wrong. Maybe with high enough frequency the spikes will come together and be enough.
But here is where the freq/voltage relationship comes in.
While tuning my primary and with the probe clips across the 2 secondary leads, I watched that every time the frequency went up, the voltage went down... and the reverse was true too. I was adjusting the base resistor, and I was also changing things by changing the number of turns.
So, if the frequency gets really high and the spikes are really close together, the voltage will be less too!
Now, back to your question...
You are correct.
The voltage does go down. Last week I got very upset after I had finished winding my mk1 around the biggo.
1/4 around, so up one side, the volts were around 90v. after finishing they were around 70v.
Then Mark just kept saying tune it tune it... so after I got the base resistor down to 90 ohm the frequency was down to 5.6KHz but the voltage was at 450vac. and I lit the fluoro tube for 5 1/4 hours.
OK?
Just have faith... it will be worth doing.
jeanna
I just noticed the pi, sorry I have a mac and the pic's are out of view, you need to scroll to the right to see pic's. I think I understand!
Mark,
Thanks but you see, I do not know which one would make a better toroid than the other.
OK All,
I made what is to me a very preliminary drawing of my jt with secondary being used as the ac input for 2 additional toroids.
There are many ways these can be hooked up, natch...
I have chosen to connect the center tap to the lower leg of the BJT secondary.
these will need to have names and perhaps a naming convention, like S1,S2, on BJT1 That would be the ones coming right off the BJT.
So, over on the left you see the BJT1S1 with long lines and lots of stuff.
You also see BJT!S2 all by itself under the big messy one.
Nested within BJT1S1 (the big messy one) would be
T2 the next toroid and
T2S1 and T2S2 being the 2 secondaries nested inside and so on.
T3 is another toroid nested inside BJT1S1.
I will make mistakes typing the names like this so something easier to get right might help if someone can think of one.
Just something to think about.
OK so here is a pic as promissed with 2 toroids nested as I have just tried to describe this.
The numbers of volts and KHz are only as the connections are drawn.
When I made the first "2tier" I found that some wires could connect with others to make a better result. I do not know what will be best. There are a lot of free wires here, and a lot of inductors present to be used.
BTW, all the cores are the same Tor-23 from allelectronics.
XTree is BJT
widow is the first T1 and
RG85 is T2 over on the right but also connected directly to BJT1S1. I mean it is nested at the same level as the widow.
Let's see what needs to be done.
thanks,
jeanna
@jeanna
My guess is you should try it for learning , this will dictate the flow of current in the pickup coil and , understanding all this is really important , if you what to evolve to making new others design and improvement . So i could tell you but that would not be really helpful , there are many details to those jt . Plus you have all the hardware to test , i have a brain and a multimeter , that can lead to false idea ex (lower resistance higher freq).
Mark
I also included a drawing of the mk pickup coil .
yep same as i wound any ...
i took some pics.... of the mk3 twisted litz coil showing a few views of it
ist
there is 4 pictures
@ stprue
Quote from: stprue on June 23, 2009, 10:50:20 AM
xee let me know if you figure out how to wind a mk style coil and please post some pics, I still don't think I'm doing it right!
I suggest you follow jeanna's instructions since she has made one and I have not. But this is a drawing I made when I was trying to understand how they were made and Mk1 said it was correct. Perhaps it will help. I think the intent is to split each coil of a normal JT in half and put each half on opposite sides of the toroid. But I am still confused myself.
To add more pickup coils, I think Mk1 replaces the single wire with a bifilar, trifilar, quadfilar, etc. with all of the pickup coil wires being wrapped on toroid together at one time.
Quote from: xee2 on June 23, 2009, 08:19:02 PM
@ stprue
I suggest you follow jeanna's instructions since she has made one and I have not. But this is a drawing I made when I was trying to understand how they were made and Mk1 said it was correct. Perhaps it will help. I think the intent is to split each coil of a normal JT in half and put each half on opposite sides of the toroid. But I am still confused myself.
@stprue and xee
xee the picture you posted if for the improved version of the jt coil and also not complete , it should no be used for now.
Mark
the original can be configured in the same mannor as the improved unfinished unit.....
as showen ... i twisted mine 8) easyer to wind ....... :D
:)
ist
@ Mark
Quote from: Mk1 on June 23, 2009, 08:25:20 PM
@stprue and xee
xee the picture you posted if for the improved version of the jt coil and also not complete , it should no be used for now.
Mark
Sorry. I was only trying to help. Thanks for the correcttion.
Hi everybody,
Here is one more little glyph that might be useful.
I made 3 kinds of inductor of the straight style... I think. The one on the left is inspired by that one that gave gadget 1300 volts when he added it to a secondary he had.
These fit with the others, so they might be easier than constructing one of your own. Of course you can do that too.
Here it/they are
jeanna
Hi jeanna,
I had a question about the new tri-coil setup you uploaded (Reply #96):
Is the center coil just an iron transformer core? There aren't wires leaving it on the drawing.
--Lee
Quote from: Mk1 on June 23, 2009, 08:25:20 PM
@stprue and xee
xee the picture you posted if for the improved version of the jt coil and also not complete , it should no be used for now.
Mark
MK I have seen the complete x2 version and I do easily understand how to wind that part of the coil and the concept as well, my trouble is with the primary's and secondaries but I think I get it I just need some time to try to make one. My real job hass been so busy I haven't done anything significant in a couple of weeks.
Quote from: stprue on June 23, 2009, 06:26:12 PM
@all
Please someone please donate a camera to Mk1, I would if I had an extra!
@mk1 . i will give you a digita Camera IF you give me one of your wound toroids that we discussed a while back . ok ? I have 7 cameras
Gadget
Quote from: gadgetmall on June 24, 2009, 11:05:04 AM
@mk1 . i will give you a digita Camera IF you give me one of your wound toroids that we discussed a while back . ok ? I have 7 cameras
Gadget
Gadget, i have no problem with that , i will send you one toroid and one wound mk .
I am out of copper mag wire but , tell me witch one you would like mk1 mk2 mk8 mk hv
mkx2.
I am glad you stayed around , its always important to have a efficiency expert.
I almost sent it 2 weeks ago , but got money issue , i would go send it today , but today is nation birthday , so everything is closed.
Mark
Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 24, 2009, 09:28:02 AM
Hi jeanna,
I had a question about the new tri-coil setup you uploaded (Reply #96):
Is the center coil just an iron transformer core? There aren't wires leaving it on the drawing.
--Lee
Actually that pic has 3 types of inductors. It is not a single tri-coil, but 3 different glyphs to cut and use in a graphic as you wish.
Yes, the center one is on a core of
any sort.
I had a sudden afterthought that this might be useful and just added it.
I will fix it and make it with wire connections.
thanks for pointing this out,
jeanna
@All,
Here is a single inductor with core.
I made the wires go in opposite directions for variety. ;)
jeanna
Quote from: gadgetmall on June 24, 2009, 11:05:04 AM
@mk1 . i will give you a digita Camera IF you give me one of your wound toroids that we discussed a while back . ok ? I have 7 cameras
Gadget
@ mk1 @gadget
Please do it it's mutually benificial and will help all of us!!! gadget the camera has all wires and software right?
@all
My self charger has been charging non stop 9 hours now.
That is using the energy to light a led and recharge the used energy.
I did not post the details here because it uses diodes and this thread is for ac.
Jesus
Hi everybody,
Today I made some experiments with a circuit from the secondary as talked about before, I will draw a pic in a few minutes, but first, I am amazed at how many wires simply do not need to be connected. I have found no use for them and having them not be connected to anything seems to not hurt the circuit.
So far, the best results have come from starting at the same generation point-- a secondary off the BJT, then run ONE wire through a toroid without a secondary and complete its circuit on the other wire through the load.
I could pick up a lot of voltage readings in many spots, but if I used any of them, the lights in the other areas went dim or out.
Finally I used another secondary off the BJT and used it to light another set of lights.
so far, again there are places where there is a reading on the scope telling of plenty of volts, but I don't seem to get any functional output.
I will draw this after some coffee... 8)
This is a very good opportunity to use a big boy or a MK2-16. I am thinking a big boy wired with a MK2 or 4 will be a good way to go for starters. I have an MK2 that has a lot of potential, maybe I will try that first.
Altrez has a big toroid with many secondaries. This is a good option too.
Right now I am in that difficult middle place where I can only use leds to show load function, but I must be careful because I am blowing them.
jeanna
here is a drawing:
jeanna said:
Quote
Altrez has a big toroid with many secondaries. This is a good option too.
>>Hi jeanna,
Does it matter if the second tier is counter-wound as a bifilar? Or with the turns going in the same direction? Have you tried measuring the circuit either way?
It crosses my mind double bifilars might work against each other, as another Member made note on another thread.
--Lee
Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on June 26, 2009, 10:04:23 AM
jeanna said:
>>Hi jeanna,
Does it matter if the second tier is counter-wound as a bifilar?
Probably it does change some things.
I was using a toroid of known values for the second tier, so it was wound the way we wind the JT primary which is only counterwound if you start the circuit at the center tap. (I think this is right. It is my understanding, anyway.)
QuoteOr with the turns going in the same direction?
My plan for today is to check out some of these details.
QuoteHave you tried measuring the circuit either way?
It crosses my mind double bifilars might work against each other, as another Member made note on another thread.
--Lee
Yes, in fact while looking for good connections or even other connections yesterday I found the one that is using the second pickup from the BJT. I connected the centertap to the one secondary line. (L in Tesla's drawing) then when I connected one of the single leads from the bigilar it made the lights brighter and the other one made the lights dim. But, there are still many factors,
1-they are different directions.
2- one of these has 5 turns and the longer one has 8.
3- I found that if I touched the unconnected wire from the bifilar to the center tap the lights got brighter... And I am not even sure the center tap was connected to the line L at that point.
4- Then there is a possibility that a cap across these or one of these bifilar wires as in a tank ckt, would obviate these questions and maybe get the lights even brighter. That will need the right cap for the job.
I think I have just defined what today is looking at. ;) hmm looks like fun.
My plan earlier was to see what will happen if I use just one single inductor in that place and look at how many winds and what size cap will help.
Are you free to do some of this too?
Do you have at least one free joule thief toroid wound with a secondary so you can try some of these things too?
I hope so.
Thank you for these good questions,
jeanna
Hi jeanna,
Your ideas sound good. I had the thought that several
or many toroids could be stacked together for greater output amperage/voltage. In series or parallel. That might or might not get around Lenz' law(s). You just need more toroids or bifilar iron/steel core coils.
Later re-edit:
In regard to my earlier post, have a look at http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6123.200, Reply #200, the drawing.
Take another Radio Shack 273-1380 and solder the red lead of the original transformer to the white lead of the primary on the new one, with the resulting red lead continuing to the 100 ohm resistor. The primaries amount to being wound bifilar with opposite-going turns. Also called a "bucking coil".
The high voltage side can be either paralleled or wired in series to light 2ea. 4-Watt fluorescents in series.
My thought was whether or not CEMF/BEMF would increase or not? Also, BTW, these could also be wired as a second, parallel tier to the JT, could they not?
jeanna said:
Quote
Are you free to do some of this too?
No, unfortunately. I'm a disabled Vet on a small, fixed income in San Francisco. I'm trying to get into low income housing before my money runs out. You live in Washington State? I lived in Seattle as a boy. Similar weather to San Francisco. My Dad worked for Boeing. Hence the interest interest in both aerospace and electronic engineering. He designed electronic instruments as a job function.
Quote
Do you have at least one free joule thief toroid wound with a secondary so you can try some of these things too? I hope so.
I have parts (steel washers, insulated copper wire, bolts, etc.), I found on the streets of San Francisco (read: free). Money
is >:( :P an issue. It is for more and more people these days. I
can budget the money for
some parts at Radio Shack. I
hope where I end up in housing is lenient enough to allow my personal experimentation.
I do have a lot of ideas; my Dad was a problem-solving engineer, after all.
Quote
Thank you for these good questions, ...
Sure, you bet. Let's all learn something. That should be one of the reasons this site is here. To learn and also get the message out.
--Lee
Hi everybody,
I ran some tests today and I will be compiling the info over the next hour or so, but I thought I would give a sneak peek overview if I can.
I used the xtree for the primary joule thief circuit. I am getting dangerously (for leds) high voltages off the pickup so I used a resistor at the battery. In fact I used a 33 ohm resistor because it dimmed the lights enough they didn't hurt when my eyes got in the way. ;)
Using the pickup from this plus the inductor from the berry, which is being run by the xtree's pickup and has no other connection to the joule thief. I have lit an array of 18 leds in series. The little pickup from the xtree is over to the side and it is also lighting one led.
Here is what is interesting about this today.
If you remember I discovered that every time I did something to change either the frequency or the voltage the other one changed too, but always in the opposite direction. So, if the frequency goes up the volts go down. (and reverse)
In Tesla's experiments, he used sparks which he pulsed at a rate that was independent of the rest of the circuit. I have been wondering what effect that would have on the circuit because he was forcing the frequency to stay at a certain rate, when it would normally change.
I saw some of this effect today.
I saw with some combinations, the frequency stayed the exact same as the voltage changed.
What changed was... the amount of light the leds would put out!
This was not just happening in one anomolous wire connection; it happened a bunch of times with different components.
So, I think this is cool.
No, I don't yet know what it means, but I like that something has shown up like this.
For now,
jeanna
Hi everyone,
I guess this takes longer than one hour.
I have made 3 pics of the circuit of bjt with secondary as feed to another circuit which has multiple circuits on it.
Here are 3 drawings of the first 3 tests done with one JT toroid added as inductor.
Please note,
In all of these there are only 2 wires from the inductor used in each test.
also,
Because it was bothering my eyes etc, I added a 33ohm resistor to the basic jtc at the battery. The voltages are therefore very low. It says here that the voltage across the secondary is 38v. That is with the battery resistor. Without it the voltage is 77-83v. (That is too hard on my eyes and I blow too many leds.)
I noticed later, that is, after I took these measurements, that when the frequency stayed the same as in the last 2 pics here, and the voltage went down, the lights got brighter, and the reverse... ie
when the frequency stayed the same but the volts went up, the lights got dim. I didn't notice it on this group and I will doublecheck to make sure tomorrow, but I think this is could be important.
So, here are 3 drawings. There will be 5 more to follow.
thank you,
jeanna
Hi everybody,
I have finished 2 more drawings describing the tests I made yesterday.
I need to take a break so I will post these 2 even though there is one more that belongs with them.
there will be 2 more after that. I hope to finish today since I want to try more good ideas.
Here, I added another wound toroid to a different pickup off the basic jtc in this test.
The basic toroid is Xtree. It has 2 secondary pickups. Yesterday I used the long one, which is called "S1".
The one I described yesterday is the Berry which lights 18 leds in series across S1.
This one is the Widow but like the Berry I checked it out in parts.
So, with the Berry still in there lighting 18 leds in series, I used "S2" a pickup from Xtree that has only 7 turns.
First pic is using the 13 turns from the widow bifilar wound primary free ends,
Next the 2 secondary pickups that the widow has on it (7T and 40T) each has a different effect.
The frequency is determined by the BJT base resistor, and it stays at 208KHz, but the lights change when different turns numbers are used. hmm. interesting.
So, for now,
here are some pics
jeanna
edit
Here is the third in this part. They are all the widow and belong on one post.
I used the center tap on this one. It is bifilar with 5T and 8T. The frequency stayed at 208KHz because that is being pulsed from the basic joule thief the Xtree.
There was another interesting light change.
The 8T bifilar here turned the light it was connected to pretty bright, and the volts across this pair of wires was 0.8v, but it affected all the other lights in the other part of this circuit. THEY went dim.
I think this will be useful.
I see that with the frequency being made to be the same, something else has to give. So, if the volts go down and the frequency is HELD the same the energy will go into the lights not the frequency and they will get brighter.
interesting thing.
OK I hope it is clear.
jeanna
Jeanna:
You really do nice work with your drawings. That is awesome.
Bill
Thanks Bill,
I sure hope it makes it easier to follow. I will be needing help and that won't come if no one can follow me, thanks.
===
Here are the last 2 from yesterday's tests.
First, I removed the widow, but the Berry stayed in its place on S1 between L1 and L2 lighting 18 leds in series..
In the widow's place, I added a simple inductor to this S2 with only one led.
First I used a wire on a core. A core just like those in the Berry and Xtree.
I connected one end to L3 and the other to the led which is connected to L2.
1.87v I did not write down the frequency for this. I did change the battery resistor just to see, and the frequency was different, so I must assume for now, that the frequency was the same208KHz, or I would have written it down??
Then I removed the straight inductor with a core and replaced it with a full spool of red magwire from RS.
Gary has suggested this a few times. I had to see.
So in the same spot, it has
0.681v at 208KHz.
Just so you all remember I stuffed the voltage with a 33 ohm resistor.
Just to have a look, at the end of the day, I put it back to normal battery power and this
0.681v turned into
3.25v at 105KHz
Many of these toroid inductors are possibly step down transformers. I just made some tests to begin.
There is a lot more to look at here.
I hope someone else wants to do some of this.
Please , if I have made some things unclear, please ask me for clarification.
Thank you,
jeanna
Hi All,
While I was doing those tests I reported yesterday, once or twice I had a wire in my hand and the lights brightened. Since the wire I was holding was on its way into a hole in the breadboard, I shrugged it off as... another example of something I don't understand and does not count. ... some kind of capacitive coupling etc...
So, the thing I realized about this is that this may just be the key.
I should remember when this happens and record which wire and how much better etc.
I was obviously being the ground wire in the famous and misunderstood deal that ac doesn't need to return to the battery but only needs a ground.
Maybe as xee2 did yesterday the neg side of the battery will perhaps recharge the battery. (or, that could take more from the battery and needs to be tested.)
Morning thoughts. A little rambly, but the important part is... always remember to notice when the lights brighten!! :D
jeanna
Hi All,
I do not have a finished report. My computer got too hot last night and I just shut it down. I won't put up the drawings that caused the problem yet, because I have not finished making the complete set, but I would like to share a couple of things I noticed.
1- The S1 and S2 will take turns lighting up their loads unless I have an inductor on the S1 load.
This makes this more complicated than I thought it was.
2- The S1 and S2 are two secondary wires wound on the same toroid. S2 must be connected to S1 in order to work at all.
This could mean they are really one complicated secondary with one connection.
But this may be a connection that acts like a "ground" to the circuit, instead of a direct link to each other. I may want to re-draw the drawing again to keep this possibility open.
My reason for saying this is:
These 2 circuit paths seem to work independently, but they must be connected to each other; but, only connected by 1 wire.
--
I have a couple of 'known value' inductors and they work very well and light up more than 2 leds on the S2 circuit. The better one has more turns thinner wire and is 220uH where the one that works less well has fewer turns thicker wire and is 22uH
It may be a resonance thing not an amount thing because there is a clear ring on the scope with the 220uH choke.
I only need to add the drawing of these. When they are finished I will show all drawings and research. (But that might be tomorrow.)
jeanna
Here are the pics.
1-First just Berry as inductor using just its secondary pickup to connect L1 with L2.
2-Just zebraK as inductor, just its secondary again, but I am using zebraK because this has the same number of turns as the Xtree primary bjt...just to see.
Since these are stronger today, I used 2 leds in series and tested each inductor with 1 and 2 leds. The inductor is the same one in both sides of the drawing. I am just "saving paper".
3- 18T on a tor-23 core (like the other cores) - light is bright.
4- 220uH inductor THIS ONE RINGS
5- 22uH inductor Cannot support the second light.
Hi everybody,
Today, I had the thought that the Line called L2 is really a 'ground' and not comparable to any part of a dc circuit.
For instance, when all the connections are made to the L1, I can let things hang in the air or connect them to L2 either way.
Sometimes something like a meter on one wire connected to L2 will affect the others on the other S, but usually not.
This is a mental breakthrough for me.
I may redraw the circuit, but I may not. It will be good to realize for now that L2 is possibly the ground and the S1 connections are made to L1 and the S2 connections are made to L3, but any connections to L2 can be to the earth or wall or the air.
They are all getting the pulse from the transistor through their magnetic connection to the Xtree toroid.
Today I looked at the 7T S2 and added inductors and capacitors to find a tank, then...
I decided 7Turns was too few and cannot tell much.
So, I removed the 7T S2 and remade it with 21 turns.
It was all I could fit.
So now, this new S2 with 21T, turned on 4 leds in series and had no effect on the leds in S1 circuit.
The amps draw seems to be the same too.
It seems not to be changed by how many leds on S1 or S2 but only by the resistor at the battery.
The voltage at the base of the transistor is about .59v with the battery resistor at 33r but .725v with no battery resistor. All that seems regular.
As I am saying this, I want to repeat that the
Xtree primary bifilar is 11T,11T
Battery is 1.35vAAA
2N3904 tuned with
246r base resistor
S1 = 74T 104v no load, no battery resistor
S2 = 21T 25v no load, no battery resistor
So here is an almost blank new picture. It will be the beginning place for any new test I will describe. (until I change it again! ;D )
thank you ,
jeanna
I have some plain data today.
I watched some youtube links that wilby sent me, thanks wilby! and it got me trying to make a tank in each connection.
So far, I have not seen any reaction except putting out the lights from the caps so I am first zeroing in on the inductor part.
I used a couple of bought inductors and a few wound secondaries from the tor-23.
Of course, if you have been following this, you have seen some of this.
But here is just some straight data. If it works without constructing a table I will be done. Here it is:
BJT
xtree
2N3904
246r base resistor
2 secondaries
74T 18leds 30 awg RS mag
21T 4 leds 26awg mag
using 33r batt resistor for protection
please see table below
jeanna
What I am finding sooo cool about this is that these 2 circuits are quite independent of each other.
They can have different color leds on them and do not effect each other.
I am thinking I will make something out of it for right now.
I will make a 45 bright white led array out of the hi voltage one.
Then I will make one with 2 or 3 yellow/orange leds for warmth of color.
I will make the leds go out and around in a spiral facing out. Then I will put it all into that very big globe diffuser.
In there, it should be so bright I will not need another light in the room. :D
jeanna
@ jeanna
??? I suspect something is wrong with your frequency measurements. If all of the coils are being driven (either directly or indirectly) from the same transistor, then they will all have the same frequency.
Quote from: xee2 on July 04, 2009, 02:30:10 AM
@ jeanna
??? I suspect something is wrong with your frequency measurements. If all of the coils are being driven (either directly or indirectly) from the same transistor, then they will all have the same frequency.
I think it is more complicated than that when you interject another inductor in only one segment / or a different one in each segment.
Mostly they are the same. 208KHz.
But some are not.
Some may indeed be incorrect, but only because the wave goes crazy and becomes unreadable. (resonance??)
But, with different inductors they should change , and if I find the right capacitor to run parallel with each inductor, I think it could do something interesting.
They are being driven by the pulses of the bjt which sets up the rising and collapsing field of each inductor. I will look closely today, unless it gets too hot again. (mid-nineties yesterday)
I think this is really interesting and I want to pursue it.
I know there is a calculator page from a radio guy somewhere that helps calculate number of turns and thickness of wire and length etc, to inductance. If I remember, he also has a capacitance element to calculate later. I have the link somewhere... ;) .
thank you xee2,
jeanna
Jeanna:
Here is a coil calculator page from a while back:
http://deepfriedneon.com/tesla_frame6.html
It also has many other handy calculators there as well.
Bill
Thanks bill,
I thought that was it, but it is not. This neon site starts with most of the components we don't use, like mains power etc.
edit
I found what I need.
I plunked in .38inch and 208khz and 26 gauge wire
I am wanting to find resonance with 208kHz because That is what I have. It is coming up in many readings from the other secondary.
I think it is where to start making each segment or what comes off of each secondary powerful
This may be its most powerful place.
I will see.
I have everything I just need to wind it.
This is what the calculator tells mw for a radio receiver that is cylindrical in form...
QuoteThe frequency is 208000 Hertz (or 208 kiloHertz) (or 0.208 megaHertz)
The capacitance is 100000 picoFarads(or 0.1 microFarads)
The inductance of the coil is 5.855 microHenrys
The coil will have 35.414 turns
and will be 0.6 inches long (you will need 5 feet of wire)
Here is where he is:
http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/radio/xtal.html (http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/radio/xtal.html)
thank you,
jeanna
I wrote this on 2 different days. I hope it makes sense.
2 pics of text with table
2 pics of the circuit
jeanna
hi Jeanna
i like your data very much as it seems to follow some other threads data as well.
almost as if ground cuurent is a sink lowering voltage much like flow does for water hammer.
current flow restriction seems to make the circuit more active as far as pressure is concerned possibly allowing current to be derived inwardly toward the wire from its surroundings in order to light your LED while also raising the frequency time base.
martin
Quote from: jeanna on July 04, 2009, 08:25:28 PM
Thanks bill,
I thought that was it, but it is not. This neon site starts with most of the components we don't use, like mains power etc.
edit
I found what I need.
I plunked in .38inch and 208khz and 26 gauge wire
I am wanting to find resonance with 208kHz because That is what I have. It is coming up in many readings from the other secondary.
I think it is where to start making each segment or what comes off of each secondary powerful
This may be its most powerful place.
I will see.
I have everything I just need to wind it.
This is what the calculator tells mw for a radio receiver that is cylindrical in form...
Here is where he is:
http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/radio/xtal.html (http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/radio/xtal.html)
thank you,
jeanna
This could be a good tool. Thanks for the good find Jeanna
Ha,
It works, well, something works
I will make a drawing to show you all.
I removed one of the S2 wires entirely; and the other wire I split into a Y. I put one of each end onto either side of the 3 leds. The inductor is still attached to the middle one and the S1.
The lights are more dim than with both ends of the wire on the outside ends of the leds, but not much. I suspect I just need to find the right inductor.
I noticed that touching the loose S2 wire brightened the leds a bit so I clipped an aligator clip to it and dropped it to the floor.
The scope could not see a difference between the ends of the Y so reported no volts.
There is more to do here and i think it will be fruitful. I think I need to find a cap that is in range.
The frequency between one of the ends of the Y and something else, maybe the S1, is 100KHz without the new inductor and 200KHz passing through it. I am not too sure about the connections, but you get the idea.
I will do more and something here is working.
jeanna
edit
At the end of the day I made a drawing for you.
I am showing where this Y is and how it is connected to the rest of things and I must say the light in this part of the circuit can get brighter at no cost to the brightness of the other lights. I think this is going to be important.
I hope someone with experience with inductors and caps matching can help here. I am in way over my head. BUT I do know there is something here.
jeanna
Hi everybody,
I am making a kind of progress here.
I am lighting 4 leds in series on the S2 and all the 10 leds are staying on without change in S1.
I tried adding one more (a second) inductor yesterday. It worked really well.
This is just like the pic above, but with 1 more inductor of the same value.
I read about mutual inductance where the inductance of 1 inductor will mess with the next if they are too close together, so, I kept these apart.
That was with the other wire from the S2 unattached straight up in the air.
It also works with that other wire at the inductor end of the string of 3 leds.
Now, today I added a 4th led to the string of leds .
Predictably the lights went dim.
I added one more (a third) inductor in series. It didn't help much.
Then I added the free end of the secondary S2 to the third inductor end of the string.
The lights got brighter.
I do not think they are all the same brightness and they are not as bright as the other S1 string of leds, but they are almost as bright.
Then I measured volts across points in this S2 circuit.
It is good voltage; higher than with 3 leds and 2 inductors.
I will draw that later, so for now, there is a little more progress.
Inductors are very helpful. I wish I had a bigger supply.
I cannot find any help so far using a cap.
This is looking a lot like Tesla's so called hairpin set of lights. I just learned that name yesterday.
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on July 21, 2009, 03:33:32 PM
I read about mutual inductance where the inductance of 1 inductor will mess with the next if they are too close together, so, I kept these apart.
Jeanna
What you read about mutual inductance is probably one of those half truths that is used to keep people from findng OU
Did it say that the best way to deal with it is by keeping the inductors far enough apart?
Doesn't it make sense that if the field from one inductor can mess with the field of another inductor in a negative way .....isn;t it likely that it can also mess with it in a positive way ?
I bet they didn't mention that .
In my opinion this is a good example of how what is taught has been tweeked .
The truth about mutual induction is there is more to it that our schools are teaching .
gary
Yes of course you are right,
I smiled when I read that, because of course, that is exactly what the joule thief is all about. ;)
I pinched them together a few times to see.
It always seemed to change the result. One time the result went higher, so there you are!
But the rest of the time the voltage stayed the same or went down a bit.
I am reminded of jadaro 's little movie that showed him pinching his inductors together and the light would go on.
Inductors are marvels. I think anyway.
It is hot today and not a day to draw new photoshop pictures, but I must do that to show what I did this morning.
so, I will be back with a drawing later.
Thank you,
jeanna
Quote from: resonanceman on July 21, 2009, 04:28:09 PM
Jeanna
What you read about mutual inductance is probably one of those half truths that is used to keep people from findng OU
Did it say that the best way to deal with it is by keeping the inductors far enough apart?
Doesn't it make sense that if the field from one inductor can mess with the field of another inductor in a negative way .....isn;t it likely that it can also mess with it in a positive way ?
I bet they didn't mention that .
In my opinion this is a good example of how what is taught has been tweeked .
The truth about mutual induction is there is more to it that our schools are teaching .
gary
@ Jeanna and Gary:
I too agree 100% just from a common sense point of view. We have all been around enough systems to know that....if something works one way, it might work the opposite in the other. You build a circuit and you have to do all these things to keep that stray "extra" electricity at bay. Really?
You are exactly right that they don't teach this and I think we have an advantage looking at it from a different point of view.
Bill
I cannot get any picture from these. Am I doing something wrong? BTW, RadiantJT-4.mov must be a short movie, being only 8,540 bytes long.
Quote from: Bubba1 on July 23, 2009, 09:14:44 PM
I cannot get any picture from these. Am I doing something wrong? BTW, RadiantJT-4.mov must be a short movie, being only 8,540 bytes long.
Hi Bubba.
Are you able to get any of them?
I thought they were too small.
I have some larger versions, but I wanted to make really small ones for people with dial up.
Do you have quicktime?
Thanks for letting me know there might be a problem.
I will watch for your reply.
jeanna
Hi Jeanna . I cant see a movie ? can anyone else ? I downloaded them but when they play there is no Vid and no sound
Gadget
No, they all do the same thing... the control panel comes up and plays, but there is no picture. RadiantJT-4.mov plays for 40 seconds, but no picture, no sound. I think I have Quicktime, not sure.
Hi gadget,
I wonder.
I will upload the bigger versions.
It was suspiciously small.
Thanks for telling me.
jeanna
Quote from: Bubba1 on July 23, 2009, 09:27:23 PM
No, they all do the same thing... the control panel comes up and plays, but there is no picture. RadiantJT-4.mov plays for 40 seconds, but no picture, no sound. I think I have Quicktime, not sure.
I just trashed all the resources and everything related to these movies and downloaded them from here. I am able to see them.
Usually my computer will not allow me to use anything from the trash so it is a good way to see if you can see it.
These movies are better than the one I uploaded yesterday, but if I put up the regular versions they will be large like the one yesterday.
Tell me please, is it better for you if I put up 6 movies that are between 500 and 900 K or 2 movies that are about 2.5M?
Bubba, gadget, do you have dialup? I know jim and gary have problems with overly large files.
thanks,
jeanna
I have Cable Internet. 2.5MB would be ok.
Edit: Whatever works best for the team.
Hi everybody,
I am sorry about the movies.
I will ask Bill to help me edit them off the posts so others don't waste their time.
I will put them onto youtube from now on.
I haven't used youtube for uploading movies yet.
I guess, Nows the time!
jeanna
Hi everybody,
I forgot to come here with the video links.
I assume you have all seen them from the other threads, but just for the record...
And many thanks to Bill for clearing the trash. :D
Here are the links to the 2 videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_wAsAeUIHA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_wAsAeUIHA)
first radiantjt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9ZFKDSxFTE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9ZFKDSxFTE)
second Radiantjt
Bye the way, the joule thief I am using in the video is the very one that I am working on here. So, if it helps you to see it on a breadboard, there it is!
In fact, I have been trying more leds and more inductors as you will see on the split secondary, but I have not reported yet.
I am trying to make the amount of light even as a way to regulate what I am doing, and I am not able to regulate the 4 leds very well. The 3 works well with the inductor in the middle led pin, but there is no middle led in 4, or I need a 5th led, or I don't know what... yet.
Please enjoy the videos.
thank you,
jeanna
Jeana
Very nice job I could listen to you talk all day. Did you pull the extra inductors off one by one to see what the changes in the scope would show as they are reduced in number? Could all those single inductors be wrapped onto a single ring teroid?
@jeanna
I know that it is very difficult, but a step by step explanation is needed to understand the complexity of your configuration.
This step by step must include the making of a stubllefield coil.
You can start with the joule thief you are using and all the ramifications added, one by one.
Then how it is connected to the circuit and how the stubblefield is included, also where to connect the measuring instruments.
I know that it is difficult, but that is the only way all the newbies including me, can make a replica of your work.
Just take your time and when you are sure that it wont fail begin to build the step by step explanation of your work.
Jesus
@Doug1
If you look at the first drawings I made on this thread, you can see that I was using a wound toroid as inductor. It was working well.
When I tried to push the limits of the second pickup, I began to want to know what the inductance was. So, I found some inductors with known values.
These are all 220uH.
I will be looking at this from now on and I will be doing many experiments, and of course I will inform you.
@Jesus,
I guess you do know how much trouble it is to do a step by step.
I am still pulling Stubblefield generators out of the shoebox so I can look at them with the scope.
Basically,
The joule thief circuit is there with 2 secondaries. I am not sure if you have done this yet.
So, here is a start.
Make a joule thief and wrap some mag wire through the center some number of times.
If you figure 4 to 6 turns for each led, and put them in series, you will not blow them.
You can change how many lights from there, by changing one at a time.
To make a stubblefield generator, I am not sure, yet.
I tried one non galvanic one last night.
It just happens to resonate with 58Hz, and so it was picking up the lights in the room and the joule thief even added so much in the air, that there was 1.3volts coming out of the secondary.
Not only that, the secondary on that one is a step down from the primary, so, if I change it to a step up, I do not know what is going to happen.
So,I better not describe the NS generator yet.
So, for now, start reading from about February 2008 in localjoe's thread about NS generators. It is when we all started. I did a lot of testing and reporting on that thread before Bill opened his Bifilar thread. After that, I reported on Bill's thread.
Anyway, this will give you some history for your brain to absorb.
Then once you have a joule thief working with one secondary, start reading THIS thread to see how to make it a 2 tiered one etc.
In the meantime, I will start to make videos that include all of this.
Thank you for this suggestion.
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on July 25, 2009, 12:38:51 PM
...
@Jesus,
I guess you do know how much trouble it is to do a step by step.
I am still pulling Stubblefield generators out of the shoebox so I can look at them with the scope.
Basically,
The joule thief circuit is there with 2 secondaries. I am not sure if you have done this yet.
So, here is a start.
Make a joule thief and wrap some mag wire through the center some number of times.
If you figure 4 to 6 turns for each led, and put them in series, you will not blow them.
You can change how many lights from there, by changing one at a time.
...
Thank you for this suggestion.
jeanna
For example, if I am going to light 6 LEDs, Do I need to wind 6 different secondaries of 6 turns each?
Is that what you mean?
Jesus
@jesus,
Oh no.
It is much easier than that.
Make sure when you wind your secondary to wind 4-6 turns for every led you want to light in series. (long leg-short leg-long leg-short leg etc.)
So, if you want 6 leds which is a fair amount of light, you will plan 36 turns for the secondary. If you make more than 36 turns you might pop all of your lights the moment you turn it on.
So, for example the way I do it is
on a breadboard, tune the toroid and get it right with a 4 turns secondary,
then continue to make 32 more turns until you have 36 total.
now put 6 leds in series on a breadboard...
Connect the ends of your secondary wires to the beginning and end of the series of leds. (remember they have some polarity even with this high frequency.) So, if they do not turn on one way reverse the wires.
If they are REALLY bright, add one more and see if they change. They should get a little bit dimmer.
If they do not get dimmer keep the extra one there or take out one or 2 turns.
You should have between 4 and 6 turns for each led.
I hope I said it clearly. If I didn't please ask again.
jeanna
Here is a pic of me in january or december lighting 6 leds from a secondary.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.msg161452#msg161452 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6942.msg161452#msg161452)
@jeanna
I have already a joule thief done that has 2b-10c-70p.
If the theory is correct I should light approximately eleven Leds.
The problem is I dont have the 11 leds right now.
But according with what you tell me that is what suppose to happen if the 6t/led is correct.
I right now have two leds I need to get nine more. Lets see what I can do.
Or build another toroid with 2b-10c-12p and the two leds should light very bright.
Jesus
Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 26, 2009, 08:33:39 PM
@jeanna
I have already a joule thief done that has 2b-10c-70p.
...
The problem is I dont have the 11 leds right now.
I right now have two leds I need to get nine more. Lets see what I can do.
Or build another toroid with 2b-10c-12p and the two leds should light very bright.
Jesus
Or...
Make another secondary of 12P on the same one you have already made.
Be careful not to mix them up when you grab the ends or you will have only 0 leds ;D
I have used a tiny piece of tape to remind me which end or which one to use.
This will be fast if you already have one made!
BTW, when I said 4-6 turns I was talking for very bright light. you will see a light with only one turn if you use 1 led, but it is not at a good brightness until you get to 4 turns and not full brightness until you get to 6. Past that, it all depends on the transistor and the toroid etc. But you will be on safe ground.
IN FACT, if you take a piece of mag wire about 18 inches long.
Sand the ends.
Wrap it, but check with a voltmeter across the led after you add each turn one turn at a time. Like this:
Start with only 1 turn on 1 led.
When that is bright after 4 turns, add one more in series and see what that does to the brightness.
Then add another turn until you have your 2 leds at good brightness.
Take notes and pass them along.
I did this for the tor-23
I think you will be doing this with a 5/$1, is that right?
jeanna
Thats right @jeanna 5/$1 toroid.
I am very tired of studying ignition and flyback driver schematics.
I have an ignition coil and a flyback coil and I would like to get some sparks from them.
I will choose the simplest circuit that can drive the coils.
Jesus
Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 26, 2009, 09:27:13 PM
Thats right @jeanna 5/$1 toroid.
...
I will choose the simplest circuit that can drive the coils.
Jesus
I see.
I am betting on it. Now there are 2 of us!
Yeay!
But just at least get the 2 leds going by using the simple secondary.
The ignition coil is convenient but I think it is a nice thing to have some lights on dark nights even if the other is not yet ready.
I bet it will be very soon.
I am glad you are working on this too.
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on July 26, 2009, 09:58:25 PM
I see.
I am betting on it. Now there are 2 of us!
Yeay!
But just at least get the 2 leds going by using the simple secondary.
The ignition coil is convenient but I think it is a nice thing to have some lights on dark nights even if the other is not yet ready.
I bet it will be very soon.
I am glad you are working on this too.
jeanna
I took 18 inches of wire, i took also the already made 2b-10c-70p toroid and adde 6 turns of the 18 inches wire.
The joule thief quit working. It is not working at all.
I tested the led on my self running motor and it is okay. By the way the only thing that seems to work today is the self running motor.
I tested the battery with my four circuits in one breadboard and all the circuits were working perfectly after moving the connections a little.
I changed the transistor and it is still not working.
I hate when the circuits behave like that when you are trying to perform a test on them.
I will try later again when I get calmed down and think clearer.
Almost all the tests I have done has been wrong today.
Jesus
Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 27, 2009, 10:52:06 AM
I took 18 inches of wire, i took also the already made 2b-10c-70p toroid and adde 6 turns of the 18 inches wire.
The joule thief quit working. It is not working at all.
Do you mean the basic joule thief led stopped working?
That is normal.
Sometimes it continues to stay on, but I remove it for these experiments, because it just takes power from the battery.
Did any leds turn on from the secondary you made?
And did you check all polarities?
jeanna
QuoteI hate when the circuits behave like that when you are trying to perform a test on them.
Me too.
But, I actually think it might be a sign of high or very high frequency that the circuits misbehave like this.
It only happens on the more powerful circuits...
unless the soldering failed.
I have trouble getting the solder to stick, these days.
I never used to have this problem, but I do now. A lot.
Please check the secondary wires with a led and tell me what happens.
thanks
jeanna
@jeanna
I could not make the leds to light bright even with the 70 turns pickup coil. The leds lighted but dim. I put a blinking led with the other two and also lighted dim with the others. By the way it blinked dim while the others got dimmer with each blink.
If I put one led between the emmiter and collector it lights bright though.
I moved to another task and tried this I posted on the kapanadze topic:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7679.msg193946#msg193946
Jesus
Jesus,
Did you ever tune the primary for maximum voltage?
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on July 27, 2009, 09:51:43 PM
Jesus,
Did you ever tune the primary for maximum voltage?
jeanna
The truth is that I did not understand the explanation given way back on this topic, because when I asked a question it was not answered with a straight answer.
I had to guess and draw a lot and stood confused.
The answer is no I did not ever tune the primary for maximum voltage.
Jesus
Good,
I was first going to ask you how many turns you have on the primary bifilar?
But, I have a few that work and since they are the same medium 5/$1 I will assume you will be successful with the kind of numbers I used.
I believe that if you have between 6T and 7T but more like 6T on both sides of the bifilar, you will get some good results.
I have one marked that it has about 450 ohm at the base resistor and one also has a 103 cap across the legs of the base resistor.
Why don't you go straight to those numbers and see how it goes for you. You might not need the cap at all, or maybe that is all you need. Just try a few things to see.
Then let me know the next question.
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on July 27, 2009, 11:57:03 PM
Good,
I was first going to ask you how many turns you have on the primary bifilar?
But, I have a few that work and since they are the same medium 5/$1 I will assume you will be successful with the kind of numbers I used.
I believe that if you have between 6T and 7T but more like 6T on both sides of the bifilar, you will get some good results.
I have one marked that it has about 450 ohm at the base resistor and one also has a 103 cap across the legs of the base resistor.
Why don't you go straight to those numbers and see how it goes for you. You might not need the cap at all, or maybe that is all you need. Just try a few things to see.
Then let me know the next question.
jeanna
Thank you @jeanna !
I have 2b-10c-70p. I need to make a new one for the test.
I will do the tests during the day and will let you know.
Jesus
Quote from: jeanna on July 27, 2009, 01:34:17 PM
...I have trouble getting the solder to stick, these days.
I never used to have this problem, but I do now. A lot....
Jeanna:
Are you using rosin core solder and are you wiping the tip of the soldering iron on maybe a damp sponge?
Quote from: Bubba1 on July 28, 2009, 09:54:20 AM
Jeanna:
Are you using rosin core solder and are you wiping the tip of the soldering iron on maybe a damp sponge?
I am, but sometimes the tip cools before I get it to the sponge. Is that all the reason for the problem I am having?
That sure is an easy fix if it is.
Thank you,
jeanna
@jeanna
I did some tests with a toroid already done I had. I t is 2b-8c.
It lights a yellow led brightly.
I added only one turn and try the two leds inseries. Nothing.
I changed the wire and wound 6 turns and try again the two leds and nothing I took one out and checked and nothing.
The breadboard is the same one I am using for a flyback coil test.
I dont want to break the toroid wires and make another, because I cannot be wasting the wires I have. If I pull out the cable it will get all twiched and it will not look good when I put it back.
Jesus
Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 28, 2009, 12:51:23 PM
@jeanna
I did some tests with a toroid already done I had. I t is 2b-8c.
It lights a yellow led brightly.
I added only one turn and try the two leds inseries. Nothing.
I changed the wire and wound 6 turns and try again the two leds and nothing I took one out and checked and nothing.
Jesus
You are right to be testing with only one led for one turn. It will not go on at all if it is trying to turn on 2 in series.
I hope I can do something in today's heat. I will try to do what you are doing to see what must be done with the medium 5/$1
I am sorry this is causing you dificulty.
Someone else watching may be getting help from your troubles, so we will keep on trying.
Are you using a 2N3904?
a pot?
No feedback or any of that for now?
To review.
You light the yellow.
You then:
remove the yellow and add it to another spot and just touch the sides of the led legs with the ends of the wire. If it does not work, use the wires in the opposite way.
Is your battery a dead one?
You might start this with a good battery.
I do find that even though the secondary uses so little amps draw, it does work better with a charged battery.
Also, even though you will get the lights on in the same way, the regular leds do not have the phosphors that make the bright whites so bright at high frequency.
OK keep trying things.
I will try some things too.
jeanna
Quote from: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 01:07:41 PM
You are right to be testing with only one led for one turn. It will not go on at all if it is trying to turn on 2 in series.
I tried it single and both ways and nothing.
Quote
I hope I can do something in today's heat. I will try to do what you are doing to see what must be done with the medium 5/$1
I am sorry this is causing you dificulty.
Someone else watching may be getting help from your troubles, so we will keep on trying.
Are you using a 2N3904?
a pot?
No feedback or any of that for now?
I have used a 1905 pnp, a 3904 npn, a 4401 npn and a 2222 npn.
There is no feedback wires, only the 18 inches wire with 6 turns.
Quote
To review.
You light the yellow.
You then:
remove the yellow and add it to another spot and just touch the sides of the led legs with the ends of the wire. If it does not work, use the wires in the opposite way.
Is your battery a dead one?
You might start this with a good battery.
I am using three batteries pack.
Quote
I do find that even though the secondary uses so little amps draw, it does work better with a charged battery.
Also, even though you will get the lights on in the same way, the regular leds do not have the phosphors that make the bright whites so bright at high frequency.
OK keep trying things.
I will try some things too.
jeanna
thank you @jeanna !
Jesus
I have seen the 3 battery pack.
Is that 4.5v?
I know what is wrong!
I hope.
You have more turns on the C than on the secondary.
Just see if you reverse theB and C and find out if things change.
I had to do that to start up the biggo. It refused to start until I put a lot on the B and a little on the C (which is opposite what xee's research has been finding)
Please try that.
Thanks,
jeanna
Sorry, I was making changes to my JT I missed your reply.
Quote from: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 11:29:49 AM
I am, but sometimes the tip cools before I get it to the sponge. Is that all the reason for the problem I am having?
That sure is an easy fix if it is.
Thank you,
jeanna
Maybe I'm dense, but I don't get it. Why does the tip cool before you get it to the sponge? Do you unplug it?
Quote from: jeanna on July 28, 2009, 03:00:29 PM
I have seen the 3 battery pack.
Is that 4.5v?
I know what is wrong!
I hope.
You have more turns on the C than on the secondary.
Just see if you reverse theB and C and find out if things change.
I had to do that to start up the biggo. It refused to start until I put a lot on the B and a little on the C (which is opposite what xee's research has been finding)
Please try that.
Thanks,
jeanna
Sorry, I was making changes to my JT I missed your reply.
Lady @jeanna you were right.
The collector coil had more turns than the pickup coil and that was the problem.
I could light just one led with the 6 turns pickup coil, but that is an improvement, because, I could light nothing before I switched the base and collector coils.
Thank you!
Jesus
Quote from: Bubba1 on July 28, 2009, 09:21:16 PM
Maybe I'm dense, but I don't get it. Why does the tip cool before you get it to the sponge? Do you unplug it?
;D ;D
I almost included this, but the heat is damaging my judgement so I thought I better not.
I have a battery powered soldering iron. My radioshack one got things so hot, that when it stopped working one day I bought a 3 battery one from weller. I was glad to have one not as hot.
but...
Mine has an on button that needs a lot of pressure, and I find that many times when I am busy getting it in the right position the button is no longer depressed and the iron is not hot. I should replace it, but I really like being able to solder anywhere.
Thanks for your help.
It is very hot day today and that may have added to the success, but i was very careful to sponge the tip after each use and I am now thinking I should get another tip so I can use it right. It seems only the point of the tip gets hot anymore.
Anyway thanks .
I think you have turned my focus to the right direction..
jeanna
Quote from: nievesoliveras on July 28, 2009, 09:51:00 PM
Lady @jeanna you were right.
The collector coil had more turns than the pickup coil and that was the problem.
I could light just one led with the 6 turns pickup coil, but that is an improvement, because, I could light nothing before I switched the base and collector coils.
Thank you!
Jesus
yeay!!
You know jesus, The way you wind a coil is pretty specific to the toroid.
There are some principles that work for all of them, but there are times when it all gets reversed.
I have made many coils on many different cores. I have a few I like a lot. The medium 5/$1 is not really one of my favorites. But Altrez and ist and hazens and more have used them to make great results.
I am very happy you have made this work.What I would do now, is add some turns to the side with 2 and when that is turning on both leds easily and brightly, remove some from the Base coil.
Did I say the numbers that worked for me?
6T,6T or 5T,6T worked and the resistor at the base was close to 450 ohm. If you have a 1k pot, that is great. If not, try a few important numbers like 1k, 470, 220 ohm at the base resistor.
If you do not have a scope to tell you how it is doing, you can put a 33ohm resistor temporarily in series at the battery. Because it is so choked down, you will be able to see minor improvements in brightness with your eyes. When you get a good brightness, then remove that 33 ohm resistor.
To really know what you have made, you can make a full bridge rectifier and put the 2 secondary wires through that, and also you must add another single diode for each side after it comes out of the bridge. Collect it in a cap then measure how much you collected. This is good to do with one of those camera flash caps.
OK for now,
jeanna
Hi everybody,
I have made some progress with my split secondary.
I found that I could make a tank circuit with a 100pF cap in parallel with the 3 leds and one 220uH inductor as long as there was another 220uH inductor in series with all of that.
The lights were as bright as the usual 10 leds in their S1 part of this multiple parallels circuit.
Then, I had the other leg of the split with nothing else to do, so I made another circuit with it and 2 leds in series.
The leds are brighter than the rest of the mob, so I know I can add one more somehow. It will probably take another cap and 220uH inductor.
That will have to wait. I am out of stock for the moment! 8)
Ah, this has felt like a long time since the last step.
There are some things to notice.
The frequency is different on the S1 and the S2. But the frequency and voltage are all inseparable on the S2 so far.
The figures on the drawing are the values when using the protection resistor.
Without this 33 ohm resistor at the battery, the voltages and frequencies are all different.
They are:
S1 circuit
10 leds in series:
59-63volts
52.6Khz
S2 circuit
2 leds plus 3 leds each in series
25v-31v
285Khz
BTW every time I take a measurement on this circuit (from the beginning) I have left all the lights on. This normally takes a lot of voltage away from the reading, so I want to mention that. I think this is all pretty impressive.
here is a drawing. (As before, all the new additions or changes are in red.)
jeanna
Here is part 1 video explanation of this.
For this time it is just showing the basic joule thief.
But, more will follow.
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4IMgDRGpHE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4IMgDRGpHE)
jeanna
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tVlCJiuWH4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tVlCJiuWH4)
jeanna
Jeanna:
Very well done! I hope everyone here watches your video series. This will help many to learn about these circuits.
Bill
Thank you, Bill.
And now...
part 3 finally:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6pbzrhBR-8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6pbzrhBR-8)
In this part 3, I started with a fresh breadboard and added pieces. This way you can follow what I am describing better.
I put the scope on the 2 secondaries and showed the output with different lights and resistors.
And, I showed the first problem I encountered.
This is over 8 minutes long, so be warned... I need to let them buffer when they are 8 minutes long!
I hope you enjoy it.
jeanna
Lady @jeanna
I have been trying to reply to your message and the system does not allow replies.
I saw your explanation and what happens at the end is what has been happening to my joule thief too.
The first component you placed on the breadboard, I could not catch what it is. Remember I can understand the written language more than the spoken language.
It helps a lot to understand your work !
Jesus
Quote from: nievesoliveras on August 11, 2009, 11:58:59 PM
Lady @jeanna
I have been trying to reply to your message and the system does not allow replies.
This is so strange. The same thing is happening with protonmom. Yet, others can reply. Oh well, I am glad you replied here.
QuoteI saw your explanation and what happens at the end is what has been happening to my joule thief too.
I will be making part 4 today. In that, I will show where I have placed the inductors. It is the inductors which keep all the lights on at the same time.
Then you can read some of the posts here and maybe they will make more sense.
QuoteThe first component you placed on the breadboard,
This is a 1k potentiometer. I called it a 'pot'.
In this circuit it is made to be 246 ohms.
Then I added a 2N3904 with the flat part facing the camera.
Then a led
then the 'xtree' toroid.
[I know better than to call it a pot. I try to make my posts with normal english so non-english speaking persons can translate them, if necessary.
Please accept my apologies.]
I ordered an LC meter and until it arrives, I will not change this circuit.
but, I will make another video to show the solutions I have found, and do more datalogging, but no more with this circuit until then.
Thank you for asking,
jeanna
Thank you @jeanna !
You dont need to apologize.
Jesus
Wow,
This is really cool.
I was filming my last video part 4 in the series to help people understand this circuit when...
I changed the inductor on the 10 leds in series from a 220uH to a 1.39mH inductor.
Now, everything goes without a struggle. Of course it took all day to realize it, but in the end I can now light 2 groups of 3 leds in series from the 21 turn S2 to the same brightness as the 10 leds in series from the 84 turn S1.
Oh good.
Here is a drawing, because I think it is easier to follow than all my words.
If you want any explanation, please ask.
thank you,
jeanna
Edit
I can see now how I can straighten out the lines of the S2 circuit.
I will leave that for another time.
j
Hi everybody,
This needs a new pic.
I added 2 more leds to the 10 which have 1.39mH inductor. These are on the S1 secondary.
I noticed when I used a supercap in place of the battery no matter what else I did, the 10 leds I had there stayed on for longer than the 6 on the S2. You can see this in that last video I made.
I was adding caps to the S2 secondary, and I was getting different effects, but as I say, no matter what I did, those 10 lingered on longer than the lights on the S2.
In the meantime, I kept adding small but bigger and bigger caps across the 220uH inductors on the S2.
Remember, each of these 220uH inductors were running 3 leds.
69pF helped and 220pF helped and took a while to load up the light and finally I added 560pF. But even then that bunch of 10 leds lingered when the cap started to run down.
So, I added 1 then 2 leds to the 10 making 12leds on S1.
Now, they all (all 18) go on and off together.
To me this means I am not throwing away any useful volts.
And, this is the first time I have even gotten close to the right cap for the job. All other times the cap did nothing.
It is almost as though those 10 leds were absorbing the effects.
I will make a drawing then add more lights until it gets uneven again.
the brightness is unchanged so far.
jeanna
edit
Here is the new drawing. As usual, I made the new parts red.
I saw something odd as I took the data.
The S1 volts went up but frequency remained 111KHz where
the S2 volts stayed the same but the frequency went down to 133KHz.
Here is the new drawing.
i see ya got a super cap in there
will this one work http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17241 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17241)
i just kidding.. i know its to big... haha ...
Quote from: kooler on September 16, 2009, 10:46:17 PM
i see ya got a super cap in there
will this one work http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17241 (http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G17241)
i just kidding.. i know its to big... haha ...
That link is to a supercap of 3 farad and Jeanna is using (I believe) a super cap of 650 Farad. (It is like the one I use)
Bill
i know on my air coil jt's if i go to big on the cap on the bat side it stops working
crazy ... huh...
Yes, I don't understand because I use the supercaps instead of a battery. they charge up very quickly and last a long time. I charge mine from my earth battery/EER set-up.
Bill
Nau the supercap is the 1F 5.5v kind. You can see it on the joule thief video #4, I think.
I just stick it in the battery rail and it charges up while I do whatever I am doing... or I wait for 5 seconds, then I pull out the battery and watch what happens.
I do this because there is no battery recovery and I can see which lights are less or more on because they go out at different rates.
It really helps me tell.
There are too many things here that are unusual, and I just do not trust the meters.
It is the kind used for computer memory.
I think $3.50 at one of those places allelectronics, I think.
So... Isn't this cool?
I got 2 more lights on and they are all equally bright, and there is still room for more since the voltage difference is still high enough on both lines.
jeanna
http://www.disclose.tv/viewvideo/29990/Dr__Steven_Greer_The_Promise_of_New_Energy/
MK1
great find, and I agree with it all.
I hope everyone views this and realises.
After talking with Gary, I have more confidence about what I am seeing, so I will not hesitate any longer.
For some time, I have not even needed a capacitor to 'tank' the inductors.
In fact I was seeing great results without a cap, but yesterday and today I have been adding caps to the inductors and getting results.
I even added another inductor to S2 and a cap along with it.
Each time I add a led or an inductor I need to readjust the numbers etc of many other elements to keep all the lights even.
(Keeping the lights even is not necessary for use, but it is how I can tell the effect of what I am doing.)
I now have 24 leds at about the same brightness, I think.
I added 4 to S1 and
2 more to S2 dividing equally, but one string needed a larger cap to achieve evenness of brightness.
The voltages went up all around.
the frequency went down in S2, but not in S1.
I guess this must be related to the fact that I am not changing anything in S1 beyond the number of leds?? but maybe that is not the reason...
I tried to write all the important information into the drawing itself, again, but it is getting crowded.
If you have questions, please ask!
Thank you,
jeanna
This sounds very interesting Jeanna. I do not see a connection between xtree and the right half of your circuit. Is it using induction?
Quote from: stprue on September 19, 2009, 12:03:22 PM
This sounds very interesting Jeanna. I do not see a connection between xtree and the right half of your circuit. Is it using induction?
Hi stprue,
The right hand of the circuit starts with S1 and S2 which are 2 pickups wrapped around the same toroid which is xtree.
there is no electrical connection.
The connection is magnetic.
We have talked around this subject from time to time, but whatever you end up calling them, they are technically transformer secondaries.
All the pulses generated in the system begin with the one transistor switching on and off.
Thanks for asking. Please, continue if there are more questions,
jeanna
Hi all,
I just tried a couple of things plus I have a little pic/pair.
I tried to use that wall wart transformer again and again nothing happened. I am beginning to be sure the reason it was at the thrift store was that it was shorted out. Too bad it was 5v from 110, so in reverse it should be great, but, oh well.
I have noticed that the red filter which I am using purely as an inductor 1.39mH to stop the S1 lights from taking all the juice and turning out the S2 lights, has 5volts on the other side... the filter.
This is strange but I am sure it is the extra that is being radiated off.
The voltage across all 16 lights of the S1 is 35v tonight, and on the other side of this filter is this 5v. (I put it on the schematic the other day.)
It should turn on a led. In fact it does, and it does in either direction, which is cool.
I am also trying gimp. I am sure there is a line smoothing function, but I didn't look for it. I just made a squiggly line around the light I am talking about.
I think you can see that it is as bright as all the rest.
The pic is taken with the 33r resistor so the true brightness is great..
This is actually the first time I have been able to do this. and it is how Tesla drew his circuits.
Up til now, I have been adding the inductors in series.
This is the first one where I am using the 'other side' of the transformer. I am not going to make a schematic yet. I will need to change it because this is happening where there is no more room on the page! :D
I also need to mention that I have added a toroid tanked with a 1uF in series with the whole S2 -- L4. I found that if I pulled the toroid inductor out the S2 lights went out.
This is getting to be fun... 'when in doubt add another inductor'
Here are 2 pix, the dark one is the same so you can see the evenness of the brightness all around.
jeanna
Edit:
Oh this is cool. I just posted it next door so I won't repeat it all here, but I realized that the inductors I have been adding are doing exactly what Tesla was doing with the spark gaps. The inductors of the S1 and S2 circuits are all being fed spikes and so they in turn will produce additional levels or heights of spikes in the same way the d..d discharge points in Tesla's circuits do.
I have been wondering why he didn't use additional inductors. I can still wonder, but I now see that he was using the discharge as I am using additional inductors.
Jeanna:
Very nice! I think that fellow Kapanadze uses both inductors and a spark gap. There is definitely something to this for sure. Nice work.
Bill
Quote from: jeanna on September 19, 2009, 02:12:25 PM
Hi stprue,
The right hand of the circuit starts with S1 and S2 which are 2 pickups wrapped around the same toroid which is xtree.
there is no electrical connection.
The connection is magnetic.
We have talked around this subject from time to time, but whatever you end up calling them, they are technically transformer secondaries.
All the pulses generated in the system begin with the one transistor switching on and off.
Thanks for asking. Please, continue if there are more questions,
jeanna
Sorry for the delay in response, now I understand! If you haven't noticed I'm not very good at reading circuit diagrams ;D
@Jeanna
Great work! This is very interesting. I think you should try to capture the extra voltage being produced by the spikes BEMF that feed to the inductors with a cap or a series of caps!
Good job ;)
Thank you, Bill and Stprue.
Stprue,
I have been going at that issue in a different way.
I have been trying to capture what I can with leds instead of into a battery.
I want to use this live, so to speak.
I think batteries are OK, but they are dead in the water.
They only put out
dc then they need to be recharged.
Yes, Bedini is doing something more live, but I just have to try this.
Now,
I am at that very interesting and odd place I was when I started this whole thing with the 2 tiered circuit.
I made a transformer out of that filter... well, actually I made a new one.
I turned enough winds to give me the same inductance then wound a secondary with many more turns on it. but, instead of the transformer action I was looking for, the voltage went down. :(
Imagine that.
There were many more turns but the voltage was lower.
I then decided to make an inductor/ignition coil type thing because that is the kind of thing that was turning the lights on in that 2 tiered circuit.
So, I made a bifilar like a joule thief primary and wound that over the secondary,
And then,
I attached one free arm of the RED secondary to the twisted pair.
This left me with 3 free arms.
1 free arm from the secondary. This is RED and
2 free arms from the bifilar; a BLACK one and a WHITE one.
I looked at this with the scope. There was a very sinusoidal wave of about 7.7volts, but at first I could only light one light.
Realizing that it was a true ac this meant I only had 3.35v on each side, so I split it.
I put 1 led on the black bifilar wire and
1 led on the free arm of the secondary,
then in between them I connected both to the white free wire of the bifilar.
Both leds went on.
And the other important part is that the remaining lights stayed the same brightness. This was NOT taking any volts or spikes or light from them.
These 2 lights are a little uneven.
I am glad to see this because I purposely made the bifilar uneven, and I believe this is showing this.
I suspect I can make this bifilar with many turns.
It is not turning the switch of transistor, so, I am just looking to make a more powerful ignition coil that uses the pulses from that distant switch.
BTW I did not lose any frequency this time. It stayed around 117KHz by eye. In fact I did not actually measure it.
I will be away for a few days. If I can do some more tonight I will, otherwize it has to wait til monday.
So... if there are any questions, please ask them tonight.
thank you,
jeanna
Here is a pic. It may or may not help! ;)
@All,
I actually have managed to add a 4th light to the place I spoke about earlier today next door.
It is beyond the S1 circuit but maybe not completely across the S1 wires as a transformer. It is definitely beyond where I have been working so far.
Now, there was another obvious place to add lights which is where I did last week with some success, but this is really cool or strange, maybe both.
On the set of 4 from today I have been trying to make them brighter by adding higher value inductors and higher value caps.
I am up to 700uH tanked with a 1uFcap.
This is in series with the 4 lights.
I tried adding a couple of lights on the 'other' side of the filter for a plain transformer effect.
Now, this only worked marginally last week.
One light was fine 2 were fine also, but I had to rig up an exotic arrangement of wires and also I had to put the lights in opposite directions.
I am only mentioning this because it was OK but weak and it looked like the last amount I would be able to stretch this circuit to go.
The bottom of the pic on the previous post shows the 2 lights as they were last week.
Well, as I have added uH to the new place which is beyond the main part of this S1 circuit, the lights at the filter are all getting brighter. I now have 3 and they are again brighter than any others so, it is time to add one more! These lights are all going in one direction and it has a 'normal' look for a transformer.
I will draw a pic, but it might be as confusing as all these words.
I will post it tomorrow (or when it is done).
And, I am beyond the scope of the scope, too.
I cannot get a reading without putting out the lights.
So, if the lights go out, I do not know what the reading is about.
Is the scope taking from or adding to the amounts?
I am having fun, are you?
:D,
jeanna
OK I took a pic or 2
On the far right you can see the 4 new lights. (3 are bright, remember, and 4 was today's extra challenge.)
In the lower section held together with clips are 3 lights on the 'other' side of the filter as in last weeks pic seen above, but...
this time they are just in line with the same polarity.
also one in the dark.
Hi everybody,
I just tried another thing and found another puzzle.
Whenever I remove the battery and the circuit is on 'drain' from the supercap, the 4 last lights first get brighter and then slowly dim to out. Ultimately, they outlast the rest.
I wondered if there was a polarity thing going on.
MMM I think so, but I am not sure
Here is what happened.
After I turned the 4 leds around, they went on very bright and
ALL of the rest of the leds that are coming from S1 became as dim as the 4 were.
Then I pulled the battery out and the drain time on these 4 now bright leds was about a minute (instead of 3 or 4 seconds).
All the rest of the leds on S1 and also S2 went out in the usual 3-4 seconds.
So there IS a lot going on here... I wonder what it is? ;)
jeanna
Jeanna:
I think you are correct about the polarity issue. It may well be that it is better to have different combinations of polarity with the leds as...1st one one way, next one the other way...etc. I don't really know.
This reminds me of my experiments where when my leds went out, I touched the transistor and they all lit back up again very brightly. The transistor (2N3904) as you know has a plastic case so, I never figured out why this happened.
My suggestion is to try this set-up you have using different polarities and see what happens.
All of this is great information to have and, as you said, adds to the puzzle.
Bill
Quote from: Pirate88179 on October 04, 2009, 08:25:08 PM
...
different combinations of polarity with the leds as...1st one one way, next one the other way...etc. I don't really know.
....
My suggestion is to try this set-up you have using different polarities and see what happens.
I haven't been able to make that work in a straight line like that.
The way I have been able to reverse the polarities is to have a wire in the middle and to have the polarities 'go out' from that central wire.
That is what I had to do last week to get 2 leds to light at the filter
where today I have 3 very bright at that spot.
QuoteThis reminds me of my experiments where when my leds went out, I touched the transistor and they all lit back up again very brightly.
Yes, I thought of that when I let go of the secondary at the end of the dim lights. and they got brighter. so strange.
---
I am wondering which of these inductors is making this happen.
I never changed the 1.82mH inductor after I got the 4 lights to turn on at the end.
It was the tanked one that I changed.
First, I increased the inductance then added the cap then increased the cap then increased the inductance even more.
With each additional increase in either cap or inductor, the lights behind= to the left of these components got brighter.
If the end lights got brighter, they did only a very little.
So, what is added at the right end is effecting what is to the left of it.
BTW there is NO change to the S2 lights at all.
To me, this means there is an excellent separation now from S1 to S2.
It might mean that what I am now doing is not effecting the xtree toroid at all.
The mA draw from the battery are just a little less, which is perhaps from battery use.
It may be time to re-read Tesla's description of the hairpin lights
thank you,
jeanna
Just a thought wave. These led diodes are subject to different voltage and current changes on a regular basis when you experiment with the same group of leds. From what Ive read their characteristics can change with too high or too low voltage or current/heat. If you add new leds to the group or independently they may behave differently as they haven't been under the gun yet.
If they are just PN I find it odd also that they light up. What could create a bypass and come around in the opposite direction? Maybe some type of external aerial induction.
Quote from: IotaYodi on October 05, 2009, 09:13:20 PM
... These led diodes are subject to different voltage and current changes on a regular basis when you experiment with the same group of
...
If they are just PN I find it odd also that they light up.
As a matter of fact I changed some just to see, but it does seem to be the placement that is making the effect happen.
I think what you said is indeed relevant to the PN type or the PN part of the leds.
The superbrights are all made from blue leds then painted with phosphor paint which makes them mini fluorescent bulbs.
This is why I believe they can go both ways. BUT, they do not always go both ways, nor are they the same brightness both ways.
It is why I like to check from time to time.
I have had the regular leds choke the system out and I have also had them shine beautifully and have no effect on the other parts of the circuit.
QuoteWhat could create a bypass and come around in the opposite direction? Maybe some type of external aerial induction.
And, please remember I am running this circuit at above 100KHz.
The frequency is coming down as I add more leds etc, but it is still at 133khz at the moment.
I think it is the frequency that is making the lights light up, so it doesn't matter what direction too much.
I am not too sure what I am finding yet, but I do now have 3, maybe 4 sections of this circuit that produce different amounts of light and appear to be independent of the other parts.
They are not because with only a small change they all effect each other again.
To me that is a very curious and interesting thing.
QuoteThe superbrights are all made from blue leds then painted with phosphor paint.
I have had the regular leds choke the system out and I have also had them shine beautifully and have no effect on the other parts of the circuit.
I did not know that about the superbrights. If the superbrights are the only ones that do this,then the odds are that there is an interaction with the phosphor which is curious in itself. There is another question in my mind about breadboards. Seeing how the terminals are laid out, they may be acting like an antenna which may include unused terminals. What Im seeing is a magnetic field being induced into the terminal blocks. I guess you could do a Jt on a pcb and/or perfboard to see if it changes. A lot more work but it may tell you if the breadboard itself is interacting with the circuit other than the direct connections to it. If the breadboard is adding to the circuit the rabbit hole gets a little deeper.
hello,
i needed anwsers for my aircoil jt that give 2.05 volts dc but light 4-8 of those 265,000 mcd 100ma leds
so i really liked jeanna scope she had so i went and got me one like hers
http://www.tequipment.net/Velleman_hps10se.html (http://www.tequipment.net/Velleman_hps10se.html)
and you guys were right on the money ...
at 2.05 vdc it had spikes of 80vac at 5.31 khz
but i also have some of those 3'' tor-23 from alleletronics and they spike at 360vac (75vdc) and still don't light my led's of the 265,000 type
i just thought it was interesting.. but i am weird
oh jeanna don't fear the scope you got i was running 1600vac (458vdc) thru it for 10 min's no current of course
i love this little portable thingy
Quote from: kooler on October 07, 2009, 11:52:02 PM
at 2.05 vdc it had spikes of 80vac at 5.31 khz
but i also have some of those 3'' tor-23 from alleletronics and they spike at 360vac (75vdc) and still don't light my led's of the 265,000 type
Hi kooler,
good job !
I am curious, how many turns are on your aircoil?
And, how many are on your tor-60 (the big one is tor 60, right?)
I use the tor-23 for the xtree and lots of things because I like to start with the higher frequency.
What is the transistor and all the rest?
Maybe we can get your big toroid to light those very big leds.
One thought, did they ever light up?
Do you have a small circuit set up to test a led?
Actually, if you do it quickly, you can hold the led legs around the flat + and - sides of a 2032 watch battery and squeeze to check a led to make sure it is not blown up.
Those big leds should definitely be going on.
Did you remove the basic JT light?
That sucks tthe power from the little switch circuit and sometimes keeps the secondary from doing its thing.
Quotei just thought it was interesting.. but i am weird
about as weird as the rest of us! ;D
Quoteoh jeanna don't fear the scope you got i was running 1600vac (458vdc) thru it for 10 min's no current of course
nice... thanks
jeanna
my air coil was 7 turns beside itself and 3 layers 18 awg speaker wire from the shack
(radio shack) almost 24 feet...it lights these 265,000 mcd leds half brightness,,8-10 of them
1k 1/4 watt
mpsa06 npn transistor (not good 4 low volts.. i know) but does show sharp kicks (spikes i mean)
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/MPSA06-HM/MPSA06-NPN-TRANSISTOR-HOUSE-MARKED/1.html (http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/MPSA06-HM/MPSA06-NPN-TRANSISTOR-HOUSE-MARKED/1.html)
it showed 1.16 khz and there is no led on the collector side of the transistor...
and the ferrite was a 86mm tor-60 sorry, sorry for saying tor-23
drinking is bad for you .......
but 58 turns sec and about two inches of the ferrite used for the jt circuit.. stanard fashion give 75 vdc.. 360ac and it won't light the big leds i got at all.. not even one..
out... robbie
Quote from: kooler on October 08, 2009, 01:06:29 AM
but 58 turns sec and about two inches of the ferrite used for the jt circuit.. stanard fashion give 75 vdc.. 360ac and it won't light the big leds i got at all.. not even one..
out... robbie
Thanks for all the info.
The only thing I am wondering is if they or one of them got blown?
I think they blow out more easily than the other superbrights.
360v will blow out 10 leds even in series. That is 36v each and they cannot take that.
Did you try lighting a neon?
If you have over 150v on a secondary you ought to be able to light a neon.
This would also prove that the figure is correct.
The other question I have is about the 75vdc.
Is that from a dmm?
The 2 numbers don't work together. 75vdc is not 360vac no matter how you cut it.
Are you reading the scope on peak to peak? I am assuming you are. But I am also assuming the dc figure is not correct. The dmm cannot read these volts correctly.
I think you almost have enough there to light a real fluoroescent tube. another 20 turns ought to do it. xee2 lit one with 80 turns, but you need 450vac.
Try that too, maybe.
jeanna
I post my wireless effect here because it's more AC from secondary.
Here are my 2 new video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S41leK9zXO4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S41leK9zXO4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS4qgBAB4QI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS4qgBAB4QI)
Kamax,
Those videos are great!
I think you are looking at the ac from a joule thief and I appreciate that you are sharing it here.
I would like to know how you made those coils, if you did .
Do you know anything about them?
And the pipe is interesting.
In the discussion about the fact that you do not need to connect the other end back to the circuit, Tesla said you could put a piece of metal, and I think he suggested aluminum, onto the wall, and the light would work just as well.
I think you have shown this in 2 ways.
1- with the wall plug ground.
2- with the pipe.
I wonder if a piece of aluminum on the wall will work as well as the wall plug ground.
thank you,
jeanna
I know nothing about the big coil, except he has 56 ohm. I just have "found" it somewere :)
But i'm testing with a metal coffee box and leds instead of the fluo. I can better see what happen. This coffee box can replace very well my big coil.
If you mean a piece of aluminium as ground instead of the copper pipe, yes it works too. I have a long piece of aluminium so long as the copper pipe (not so large of course) and it works.
I try to see if i can make it completely wireless with the cofé box directly on the output on one pickup side, the other side grounded into the wall.
The wireless "circuit" is the big coil near the coffee box connected to a led and the led to the copper pipe. It works but box and coil must be near. Maybe with a better antenna...i want to try water but hmmm i hope i will explode nothing :D
But the last video (N°3) is very strange, i'm so far away ,it can't be magnetic. I'm asking me how a wire with the end connected to nothing can circulate electricity. It's too far away to be something like induction with the other side of the pickup.
I think it's a single wire earth return in my video N°3. IT's on the wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_wire_earth_return (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_wire_earth_return)
The coil after the fluo is like a ground that's why it works. Same for the long wire, more long is like a better ground.
Quote from: kamax on October 09, 2009, 08:24:07 PM
I think it's a single wire earth return in my video N°3. IT's on the wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_wire_earth_return (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_wire_earth_return)
The coil after the fluo is like a ground that's why it works. Same for the long wire, more long is like a better ground.
Yes, I think so too.
Very interesting. I am glad you are doing these experiments.
A coffee box, huh? interesting idea.
jeanna
Hi everybody,
Here is my newest youtube movie... part 6 on this joule thief with 2 secondaries and 30 leds in series etc...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzhbsLBwc54 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzhbsLBwc54)
Please enjoy,
jeanna
@ Jeanna:
Very well done! 30 LEDs is great. I really like the way you explain everything in your videos, very nicely done.
Bill
Thank you Bill.
~~~~
Today, before I tear everything apart and make a bedini charger, I tried something I wanted to try, but haven't.
I tried to make a battery charger from the secondary area of this complex joule thief.
This should be possible and very easily so.
I pulled out my trusty wheatstone bridge made after electricme's excellent instructions.
I added a couple of extra diodes too as I did before I got the scope.
I wasn't sure which way to put the battery leads, and after reading a few posts about it here and at the energetic forum, I tried it first one way then the other.
I did not write these things down and I may have them reversed...
If I put it black to black, the lights in the forward part of the secondary went dim.
If I put it red to black, as I think bedini suggests, then it seemed that the battery was pushing out. Maybe the battery is too charged...?
Either way the battery did not charge at all and in one direction diminished.
I am wondering if I am supposed to use a capacitor?
It seems bedini circuits have both, but there are so many variations, I am not sure at all.
Then I noticed that the battery was draining fast.
In the end Ilocated a .47ohm resistor and see that at almost full power it draws .095A or 95mA.
I have been not trusting the amps draw readings because it is clear that when using the 33 ohm resistor at the battery, the lights are very dim and calculating with ohm's law shows a lower amount than when using the 10ohm resistor.
In any case I believe this 95mA for the circuit, and feel much better about posting the amount... so forget the 23mA I quoted above.
It might have been close to correct in the beginning, but not after I added so many lights.
So, at full brightness 30 leds draws about 100mA from the battery using this complex circuit.
They are all in series and it comes out to 3.34mA per light... still pretty good!
jeanna
Hi everybody,
I have been at it again!
Today marks the beginning of going over the same territory but with a more powerfully wound toroid.
I took some last measurements with the xtree and replaced it with the new MK1Jeanna hybrid...
This needs a name. so I will add a name, but first....
The lights without the battery resistors are incredibly bright.
They are bright everywhere, too. In fact where I was struggling to add a 4th light to the very last light on the last circuit, today I HAD to add it for the protection of the rest.
---just to keep you all confused ;), it is as pictured in the last drawing, because I had ended up removing that 4th light but never took it out of the drawing...I just put the change into the text.
Going into the experiment, I knew there was more than one difference in this new toroid from the xtree.
The primaries are different too.
It is modeled after the widow.
This has 5T,8T, ~84T (on purpose about the same pickup secondary as the xtree, but the best tuned this toroid gets seems to be 5T,8T and the xtree is 10T,10T primary wires., so it only makes sense to use this.)
The unevenness makes a difference.
At first I struggled. The lights were really dim, yet the voltage was higher than the xtree.
I was unsure why ... Then, I remembered to turn the secondary wires around, and wow, biggg difference.
This still has only one secondary pickup. I will add another one later, maybe tomorrow.
I am relieved. This now looks very promising.
I think I will wind the second pickup in a solenoid fashion, straight.
At another time I will see about a MK2jeanna hybrid because Mark always says to wind them together, so I will try that on the next one.
Anyway, the thing I WAS concerned about before I started today is that I was afraid I would have to change all the inductors and caps for better tuning.
I do not thing this will be necessary.
The brightness is amazing and the waves look right.
Well, so far.
Perhaps if I were to make this with a different toroid not just the wires, I would need to repeat all that fiddling.
OK
That is it for now!
thank you,
jeanna
edit:
oops, no I forgot the amps
The full brightness going through a .47ohm resistor is 102mA for the 25 leds verrry bright.
Through the 10 ohm resistor, 42.6mA, but significantly less bright, so it is just a number for contrast.
Jeanna:
Great work! Was that only a 47 ohm base resistor you posted about? That is very low ohms compared to the JT's I have wound and tuned. As I said before, I don't like resistors anyway so, the lower the ohms the less energy we are wasting I believe.
My big toroids are on their way and so is my newbie wire. I got my TIP3055's today, 10 of them. I am sure I will be PM'ing you when I start to replicate my Jeanna Light. I really can't wait. It must make winding a lot easier with that large ID.
Bill
Quote from: Pirate88179 on December 03, 2009, 09:02:01 PM
Jeanna:
Great work! Was that only a 47 ohm base resistor you posted about? That is very low ohms compared to the JT's I have wound and tuned. ..........
My big toroids are on their way and so is my newbie wire. ........... I am sure I will be PM'ing you when I start to replicate my Jeanna Light. I really can't wait. It must make winding a lot easier with that large ID.
Ah good.
I am glad you are getting newbie wire. The little spool it comes on actually goes through the hole.
The 1/4 lb spool is too wide. It would make a good ruhmkopf coil secondary!
I probably made the resistor thing worse by mentioning it.
It is not for use while the jtc is working.
It is just cuz I don't have an amp meter.
I know it is confusing.
Here is the deal with the 0.48 ohm resistor.
I put it in the battery line ton read the amps draw.
51mV divided by .5 = 102mA and it might be true, because the light in the system is similar. If I use the 33 ohm resistor at the battery and read the volts in series, I get 30 or 20 mA, but this is representing a much dimmer light.
I realized this a month ago and decided to stop worrying about my amps draw, but when I use the half ohm, it changes the light too little for me to see, and I think it actually reflects an accurate amount.
I am really delighted you will be making one or 4 of these, and I am certainly ready to help if needed.
Oh, btw,
The base resistor is about 150-200ohm.
thank you,
jeanna
.48 ... is this correct ... that is extreamlly low ... might as well call it its natural .. lol
do you find this to portect the transistor at all .. or is this for fine tuneing .. i personally know it honestly dont matter ... just pulse the pulse .. then sync that to 7hz.. drop a mag on it and watch it FLY ...
ist!
Oh dear.
I have made this hard to understand.
I apologize.
The base resistor is 80 ohms.
I am only using an additional resistor at the battery to know the amps draw... and to know what it really is. Using even a 10 ohm resistor in the battery place will lower the amps draw so much the lights get dim. And that means the amps draw I report is for a circuit which has dim lights.
And the amps draw for a circuit that has bright lights is higher.
The .47 ohm resistor shows this.
And I only use it to record the approximate amps draw for the circuit with bright lights.
In this case 102mA for 25 bright leds.
thank you,
jeanna.
Hi everybody,
I added another secondary (25T) and my new toroid (style 1-2,4) now has 2 secondaries like the other.
The higher voltage everywhere is stable.
I did need to make a couple of changes but they were minor.
The base resistor came down to 80r from 245r.
Since the toroid is the same in both, I think this has to do with the 5T,8T instead of 10T,10T at the primary level.
I am guessing.
5T,8T,84T,25T
2N3904
80r base resistor
101Cap in || with the base resistor
All the inductors and caps are the same as before...
As I mentioned last night, the light was so strong on the final leds of S1, I had to add one more to make 4.
Today I added another and 5 is too much and they could not light.
BUT, when I added S2 the 5 could light well. (not as bright, but egads S2 isn't even electrically attached to this line!!)
S2 with the same 25T as the other one has 34 volts showing across the wires on the scope and 111khz.
I added one more light to each of the 2 circuits here and the lights are still a little brighter than the S1 lights.
The amps draw is down too.
Remember last night with just the S1 and its 25 leds, it was drawing 102mA
After I added the S2 and the 2 additional leds making a total of 34leds in all and in series, the amps draw dropped to 87mA.
There is one other thing I should add to this report.
There are 2 sections of lights that lit with a single wire plus my hand for grounding.
I only discovered this because all the circuits were already in place and as I moved around the S1 wire, the lights in these 2 areas went on.
I am planning to remove one of these 2 circuits and concentrate on what can be done with a single secondary with multiple circuits.
This is the design Tesla ended up with and our house circuits are built on this scheme.
I see why.
I hope it will be a simple matter to add one series inductor along with each light (=set of leds in series) kind of like an ac wall wart to manipulate the ac or pdc going into each set of lights to produce the desired light.
It may be better/easier to add a series inductor with a parallel cap.
I am also wondering if a variable resistor can add usable flexibility to this system.
Lots more to find out. ;D
jeanna
Quote from: kamax on October 08, 2009, 04:53:55 PM
I post my wireless effect here because it's more AC from secondary.
Here are my 2 new video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S41leK9zXO4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S41leK9zXO4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS4qgBAB4QI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS4qgBAB4QI)
This is a great direction and I have dabbled in something similar a while back. I think copper mass has a lot to do with this effect but when you touch something not only are you grounding it but your body actually acts like a capacitor..
Keep up that great work!
8) 8)
@jeanna
Where do you get those pretty boxes from for your light?. what are they ?
Albert
To get optimum performance down to less than 0.5 volts from your Joule Thief, try using an autobias circuit with a hocus focus rectifier (Digikey) These work best with Bhoudini circuits. That should stabilize the circuit at the lower voltage and put the clamp on those missing Joules that the Thief absconded with. They are returned to the source in a timely manner, so not stolen after all, just borrowed. All this comes at a price, which just about nullifies the conversion efficiency gains. The front porch of the pulse is now missing, so you will need a DC restorer to build it back. A Schloky diode will help with this if connected in inverse parallel and carefully color matched.
I channeled all this from Tron the god of energy. Lately he told me that I could carefully peel the wrappers off nearly dead batteries and put the rest in a blender, add some tomato juice and vinegar and mold the sludge into a much bigger battery. I haven't tried this yet cause the transmission was interrupted when I asked what kind of electrodes to use.
Then a loud bellowing voice said "It is not the oracle that petitions the young fool, it is the young fool that petitions the oracle"...."ask again in one month"
Quote from: gadgetmall on December 07, 2009, 09:55:32 PM
@jeanna
Where do you get those pretty boxes from for your light?. what are they ?
Albert
Hi Albert.
I do not know the supplier of the nicely stained boxes.
I did find an unfinished box with a brass latch for around $5 from Ritz camera.com Item number 261444
The regular price is higher but not much, and since most new wooden boxes are over $20 it is a good deal.
In fact it is perhaps a good idea to use white paint or just shellac for better reflection, even though it isn't as beautiful as lidmotor's seaworthy looking one.
The actual link is on my mac, but this ought to get you there. Let me know if you cannot find it.
jeanna
ARRRR! Seaworthy....AYE!!
Bill
Thanks it was 11.95 shipped . I am going to mold a clear protector for my bulb so it don't get broken and seals it up inside hard clear stuff i have. ! Mess when they break and they break easy !
Albert