Hi all.
Been tinkering with a setup like this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUwLSkANCMg
Magnet position will be moved to an angel, also there will not be screws through the magnets but a clamping system.
I strongly believe that shielding is the key to get any magnet motor running.
Thoughts - Ideas ???
Using a shield, which is actually a field conductor, you need to know two problems.
1: When magnets are repelling, the shield is pulled harder into the gap that is repelling.
2: When magnets are attracting, the shield pulls less to the gap.
3: Both the above are compared to the pull of a single magnet to the shield.
This problem usually destroys most plans.
Just my 2 cents. I think asymmetry is your friend. Try something like 5 interior rotor magnets, 8 shield windows, and 13 external stator magnets. I don't know whether it will do what you want, but it has to be better than having all those magnets hit the sticky spot at the same time.
Quote from: lumen on June 30, 2009, 07:03:00 PM
Using a shield, which is actually a field conductor, you need to know two problems.
Thats why i want to have symetry.
When both magnets are equally attracted to the shield, the forces are the same on both sides and should have no effect on the rotating motion of the shield.
The forces would/could act as a ball bearing instead.
The question is just what the forces will do when they get to the edge of the shield opening, as you suggest....this could stop the whole thing.
Quote from: 0c on June 30, 2009, 07:15:14 PM
Just my 2 cents. I think asymmetry is your friend.
In my head, asymetry will always have a sticky point greater than the oppiste pulling/dragging forces, but i have an idea for that also, i will just not get into that before i get symetry tested first.
Does any body know of a cheap device that can measure magnetic forces?
My shielding plates have to get propperly alligned in all dimensions, but its difficult to do so with no measuring device.
Quote from: 0c on June 30, 2009, 07:15:14 PM
Just my 2 cents. I think asymmetry is your friend. Try something like 5 interior rotor magnets, 8 shield windows, and 13 external stator magnets. I don't know whether it will do what you want, but it has to be better than having all those magnets hit the sticky spot at the same time.
I have also thinked that asymetric setup works better, but you achieve only one thing: Less cogging.
Less cogging results also in less force for each given lineup between stator and rotor. So the average torque will be the same in any case. When it comes to pure permanentmagnet motor, it will not work anyway. Also the shield will affect not only the stator or the rotor, but both at the same time. So the net result will be the very same.
I have tried to imagine several setups, but it allways ends up in "Taking = giving" - or force equals counterforce. I think that a magnet motor design allways will be a dead end, but even with all these negative thinking I have about it, I never stop trying :-)))
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on July 01, 2009, 09:02:43 AM
I think that a magnet motor design allways will be a dead end, but even with all these negative thinking I have about it, I never stop trying :-)))
This tells you have self-criticism and it's a clear sign of a healthy mind.
Every second "free energy" inventer is self-delusional when facing the fact that his
magic overunity idea wasn't overunity at all. It can be hard to face reality when having
spent a good portion of ones life on building a useless contrapment.
Interesting cheap self-build unit..
http://www.instructables.com/id/Magno-Sniffer-Magnetic-Sniffer-Probe-Whistler-Thi/
Here's a hall-effect from Steorn for around 300 Euros. It has data logging via USB as standard, and a "2-D" tip. It reads both Gauss and Polarity, but requires the interfaced PC to work, and read the data (probably the cheapest out there with these features).
http://www.steorn.com/steornlab/hall-probe/
It is better to build something that does not work, than build nothing and forever believe it will.
Quote from: jibbguy on July 01, 2009, 09:47:04 AM
Interesting cheap self-build unit..
http://www.instructables.com/id/Magno-Sniffer-Magnetic-Sniffer-Probe-Whistler-Thi/
Here's a hall-effect from Steorn for around 300 Euros. It has data logging via USB as standard, and a "2-D" tip. It reads both Gauss and Polarity, but requires the interfaced PC to work, and read the data (probably the cheapest out there with these features).
http://www.steorn.com/steornlab/hall-probe/
You can take that sniffer from Instructables, or even just the sensor chip (or an Allegro Microsystems A1321), and for under 100 US dollars you can build a Velleman K8055 interface board, which comes with sufficient software to do what Steorn's setup does, and a lot more. Plus you can trust the instrumentation and software to give you correct data--which I would not trust Steorn's to do.
http://www.velleman.be/ot/en/product/view/?id=351346
http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Part_Numbers/1321/index.asp
The stock linear ratiometric Hall sensor chip is only a couple bucks, and you can get one with NIST-traceable calibration for 25 bucks.
(Oh, and there are LabView .vi modules for the Velleman board, and you can write your own software for it...)
Hi all.
I'd just like to make it clear that I do not in any way think that I have the one and only solution, and that my little idea Will spin for ever and ever, producing Tera Watts for all man kind ;D
I just have a lot off ideas, and I often find my way around problems in a way that many others don't .... that's it and that's all.
Secondly I also have a big problem trusting information from a system driven by economics.
There are things going on that we do not understand, and they can not just be written of because science (as we know it) does not accept it.
Thanks for the tips guys :)
The Steorn probe is a little bit to pricey for me......... (But I am very excited about the development of the whole Steorn history, let's all hope they come through in 2009)
@TinselKoala
I have been looking at the Velleman products previously, but that was the K8061 http://www.velleman.be/ot/en/product/view/?id=364910
I have a experimental miniature heating pump that I'm playing with, and could use the K8061 for that one also.
Would the K8061 not work as good as the K8055? (I'm not into electronics, and my elektro helper is very busy putting food on the table for his family)
Quote from: CombinedTech on July 01, 2009, 04:38:31 PM
Hi all.
I'd just like to make it clear that I do not in any way think that I have the one and only solution, and that my little idea Will spin for ever and ever, producing Tera Watts for all man kind ;D
I just have a lot off ideas, and I often find my way around problems in a way that many others don't .... that's it and that's all.
Secondly I also have a big problem trusting information from a system driven by economics.
There are things going on that we do not understand, and they can not just be written of because science (as we know it) does not accept it.
Thanks for the tips guys :)
The Steorn probe is a little bit to pricey for me......... (But I am very excited about the development of the whole Steorn history, let's all hope they come through in 2009)
@TinselKoala
I have been looking at the Velleman products previously, but that was the K8061 http://www.velleman.be/ot/en/product/view/?id=364910
I have a experimental miniature heating pump that I'm playing with, and could use the K8061 for that one also.
Would the K8061 not work as good as the K8055? (I'm not into electronics, and my elektro helper is very busy putting food on the table for his family)
Yep, the Velleman 8061 is an expanded version of the 8055 with more I/O channels. Also a bit more expensive. So it depends on your needs. The 8055 is more than enough for me, plus it has 2 pwm outputs whereas the 8061 only has one.
I've built about a dozen Velleman kits and they are high quality--no complaints from me.
If all you need is rough indications of polarity and field strength you can just use the Hall sensor (about 2 bucks), a 5 volt DC source like 3 D cells, and a cheap digital VOM that will show positive and negative voltages.
Quote from: TinselKoala on July 01, 2009, 04:52:57 PM
plus it has 2 pwm outputs whereas the 8061 only has one.
Speaking of PWM.
I got some old amplifiers laying around, I was thinking about hooking one up as a PWM.
PC audio out to Signal in. Speaker out to load
Frequency control from any PC audio program, variable HZ
Have I lost my mind, or would this actually work? (like I said, im not into electronics)
Quote from: CombinedTech on July 01, 2009, 05:54:10 PM
Speaking of PWM.
I got some old amplifiers laying around, I was thinking about hooking one up as a PWM.
PC audio out to Signal in. Speaker out to load
Frequency control from any PC audio program, variable HZ
Have I lost my mind, or would this actually work? (like I said, im not into electronics)
Well, it might work, depending on your pc sound generating program and the motor you are trying to drive. You need to be able to generate a pulse, or "square wave", with variable frequency and duty cycle, and you have to be able to set the DC offset. The optimum frequency depends on the motor, and the pulse width (aka duty cycle) is your speed control, and the DC offset or peak to valley voltage also depends on the motor. You might have difficulty here, since audio is typically AC and you want pulsed DC. I haven't tried it, but with certain motors and the right software it might work.
It would seem simpler just to use a PWM circuit--there are many on the net, simple and not-so-much. It would be a good way for you to "get into" electronics!
Quote from: TinselKoala on July 01, 2009, 06:45:45 PM
since audio is typically AC and you want pulsed DC.
In my theory you could just cut or construct the wave to DC in the Audio program.
The reason for this approach is that I would have a Oscillioscope in the Audio program, giving me some limited visual overview of what is going on without having to buy an oscillioscope.
At the same time i would be able to construct the wave how ever i want on screen visually.
Just a thought
Quote from: CombinedTech on July 02, 2009, 06:14:04 AM
In my theory you could just cut or construct the wave to DC in the Audio program.
The reason for this approach is that I would have a Oscillioscope in the Audio program, giving me some limited visual overview of what is going on without having to buy an oscillioscope.
At the same time i would be able to construct the wave how ever i want on screen visually.
Just a thought
CombinedTech,
A power amp might work for a motor. I have an old power amplifier, puts out over 12 amps fully cranked, great for frying electronic components and 10 amp meters. Anyways, I use Cool Edit a oldy but goody sound program before Adobe bought them out and generate wave forms in it. Feed it to the power amp (through a mono plug) then out to whatever circuit you want to drive. A scope helps a lot to get the right wave form and amplitude, like turning off your sound cards bass enhance option if it's on. Put a pot on the output so you can tweak the current to the desired level. Once you got the wave form, amplitude and current set; hook it up. One thing you will have to check with a scope is distortion from the sound card. Cheap sound cards will put out cr*ppy wave forms (round square waves). I run through a Creative Audigy which gives a good output signal.
This is the problem with many (nonworking) OU magnet motors. People want magnets to behave a certain way. Magnets actually behave otherwise, following their own set of rules. People have discovered ways to force magnets to behave the way they want, by using externally supplied energy to make the magnets conform to their wishes.
the problem with this approach is that it requires an external supply of energy.
CombinedTech is doing the right thing. He is trying to discover a way to get (permanent) magnets to accomplish something without depending on any external supply of energy, using only the intrinsic behavior of the magnets themselves. If he is successful, there will be no doubt whether or not it is overunity. Batteries will not be included.
The challenge is to limit your thinking to the permanent magnets and their effects, to figure out some way to allow their natural behavior to provide useful, continuous, and repeatable output; without requiring any external influence.
Manipulating the fields electrically is cheating and, as we all know, there's a price tag.
Can a pure permanent magnet motor ever succeed? I don't know, but I don't think it has a chance if it's plugged in.
@DreamThinkBuild
Sounds great :)
Defiantly needs a high quality audio card, just not sure about the noise from the PSU and fans.
I have a very good music ear and enjoy good clear music allot, and i can tell you that my current sound card is way off, and i can clearly hear noise in the sound.
I was thinking of using an old NAD 304 amplifier, produces acceptable sound quality with close to no noise so its quite good shielded and apparently the internal components have been selected with thought to noise reduction.
Produces 4x35 real Watts at 6 or 8 Ohms, so around 2 - 2,5 amps on each channel if i understand it correctly.
But the PC......... well ill look into when i get the time.
@Oc
I have been thinking about this type of design for some time, so don't worry about me jabbering on about many other things, I tend to do that and it seems to work out the best for me ;D
Can't focus on one thing for to Long, gotta have multiple problems ???
I made some small changes after some testing, and think that i might have overcome one more attraction = repulsion problem.
Perhaps i will upload a new animation later tonight.
Posted a new video in very slow motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMu2yZM3bg0
Problem is when rotating magnet is in the middle of two static magnets, then the shield is going away creating a negative drag.
The rest of the drag spots are almost zeroed out by another positive drag and also when 2 magnets are repelling each other, it should produce more positive push/repulsion than the single magnet negative pull on the shield when in the middle of two static magnets.
What do you think, could there be a slim chance here?
Quote from: CombinedTech on July 02, 2009, 04:49:33 PM
What do you think, could there be a slim chance here?
Not unless you can introduce some asymmetry. I suggested one way. There may be others. Just think about it, dream about it, think like a magnet:
"If I was a magnet, how could I do this ...?"
Quote from: 0c on July 02, 2009, 05:08:47 PM
Not unless you can introduce some asymmetry. I suggested one way. There may be others. Just think about it, dream about it, think like a magnet:
"If I was a magnet, how could I do this ...?"
Well, I rate the attraction/repulsion values like this :
Two magnets repelling each other = + 1
One magnet Negative drag on shield edge = - 0,5
One magnet Positive drag on shield edge = + 0,5
Start at 0 when you press play
rotor moves and Two magnets repell = 1 now you count the rest and tell me if you come out with a number greather than 0
Edit:
And remember there is no repelling between magnets and shielding, only drag as positive/negativ depending if the shield is approaching/going away
uuuups, should have made an edit to previous post
First, the soundcard PWM. Since what you want to use to drive the motor is a rectangular wave, or rather a pulse, of varying duty cycle at a fixed frequency, the audio for that will sound very "buzzy" and will have a lot of power in high harmonics, due to the fast pulse rise time. Your cheapo sound card will probably work just fine, certainly not noticeably worse than an audiophile card. Gold Wave or Cool Edit will probably work to make the waveform, and you can use a diode if you can't adjust the dc offset. (to keep the voltage DC rather than AC like most audio).
Second: the magnet motor. The magnet interactions work out to cancel all the way around. That is, you only have the starting impetus, from Mr Hand or however you put it into that top-of-the-hill starting position. This is the only energy coming in, and it only comes in at the start. Then you have drag--one serious one that you may not appreciate is the eddy current drag induced in the shield material as the magnets move past it, and as it moves past the magnets. This drag will be substantial. Along with friction, this will use up the initial energy quickly and the motor will stop.
One good way to begin evaluating these designs is to look at the cycle aspect: Does anything change, from one position in the cycle to another? Put another way, after a complete rotation, is there any difference in anything? If not, the machine won't run. Something has to flow, from a reservoir or source, down a potential gradient, to a sink. In this device, there isn't any flow, nothing is depleted, nothing is different after rotation.
And there are other reasons as well. You might enjoy reading this:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/cheng2.htm
@0c: "Think like a magnet?" You really should try to get out more.
Quote from: TinselKoala on July 02, 2009, 08:43:51 PM
@0c: "Think like a magnet?" You really should try to get out more.
:-*
@TinselKoala
Eddy currents: I was hoping that i could create reducting by my shielding design where it is build of several very thin plates with a non conducting magnetic or electrical material between the plates.
This method is also used in transformers to reduce eddy currents.
Secondly the material I'm using does not seem to produce any significant amount of eddy current, but it's all very experimental without any correct measurements of any thing...sooooo :-\ ;)
I also found out that i could perhaps make variations in the thicknes and still keep optimum shielding at the correct places, less shielding is = les eddy currents
Well ill just keep at it, and do some more thinking before building anything