Hi Guys,
Just reading your posts, very interesting stuff. I pay with hho via ultraviolet light , magnets and Tio2 , it also uses water/vapor from an ultrasonic water fogger as feed stock , I also have Joe cells and water quality and charge is critical , I "make " the water for the jcell by linking two jars of water with a rag/cloth/handtowel and apply 50 odd volts dc - positive to one jar negative to the other ( via 304 stainless welding rod cathode/anode ) .
After about 12 hours (overnight) the water will split into two types, one when measured with a multi meter will read as a plus 800Mv voltage the other minus 300Mv, tap water should be about +500Mv when measured to start with, but if you split the jars and repeat the process you can see values of +1.1Mv in other words a glass of "water " holding the equivalent of a pen battery.
Don't know if it would spark 3-4 ml though, sorry to but in but having seen this I thought I would offer these results.
Regards,
Robbo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-dpdC5FwBA
This water right here can cure cancer if you drink enough of it regularly .
Combine this with some vitamin b-17 , hemp oil and you can cure any cancer .
Robbo, would I be right in thinking that you mean milli-volts, not Mega-volts?
Dankie, I'm not sure as to the purpose of that youtube link you provided. The guy says he is charging water, but clearly he is simply electrolysing it - he's producing gas by normal electrolysis, nothing more... why would he think he was charging water?
You got me there Farrah Day , the correct parlance would indeed be mV , thanks for picking me up on that.
regards ,
Robbo
No problem Robbo, it's just that when I first read it as Mega-volts I thought... wow!
Water is a polar molecule, so water can be polarised by a electric fields, but this is not the same a charging water.
The Kelvin dropper experiment shows clearly how to produce charged water, but the resulting oppositely charged water is in two separated containers. The water can be charged extremely high and the charge at some given point will be high enough to cause the air to ionise and jump a spark gap.
Some people are claiming to charge water in a single container, but this makes little immediate sense.
How can it be possible to charge water in a single container? For this to happen, water molecules would need to be ionised and then either the -ve or +ve ions would need to be removed, leaving a surplus of the other.
Farrah ( quak-too) , I know Moshe , he wouldnt make a video and call it stage 3 charged water if it was in fact electrolys
Sometimes you can say the stupidest things ...
Quote from: dankie on August 09, 2009, 06:53:41 PMstupidest
huh? what is stupidest? I tried to look it up in the dictionary will no prevail.
I had to. sorry.
Jerry ;)
the Language or parlance for a Joecell and its operation , they have four stages of preparation b4 the joecell will work - these were coined by Alex Schiffer the co inventor of the Joecell , its all a bit mystical for most as they are non scientific by nature , the stage 4 cell will run a car without electrical connection by extracting ergone from the environment , If you are unsure of egones existence then it all makes no sense .
Some of these devises ( and I have a few ) will electrolyze at voltage / amps so low that one couldn't call it electrolysis , and as there is no physical connection from the cell to the engine its all a mystery . Can't say I believe it but I have seen some strange results .
A true Joecell ( they say ) dose not produce hho or any other gas .
Robbo
Quote from Dankie:QuoteFarrah ( quak-too) , I know Moshe , he wouldnt make a video and call it stage 3 charged water if it was in fact electrolys
Sometimes you can say the stupidest things ...
What you think you know and what you actually do know is highly debatable.
I'm afraid the fact that you know him does absolutely nothing to his credit... you know and support a lot of retards.
Charged water does not gas up. If it's gassing - as per the video - charges are being exchanged, the water is clearly reacting and electrolysis is occurring. If you really want to know what charged water is do yourself a favour, stop believing everything that anyones says, and check out, 'Lord Kelvin's Water Dropper'.
And you have the nerve to call me stupid!!!
Robbo:QuoteSome of these devises ( and I have a few ) will electrolyze at voltage / amps so low that one couldn't call it electrolysis
It only takes just over a volt to initiate electrolysis, and any current flow whatsoever between electrodes immersed in water or an electrolyte will constitute electrolysis. So, on the contrary, no matter how little gas is being evolved, it is called electrolysis.
Sorry if the Last post was taken out of context Farrah day , I do agree that electrolysis is electrolysis and 1.2 V is the number required , I was to attain to the point that to run a car with one at these levels requires a certain sort of “belief†structure I struggle with hence my appearance here .
I have measured the ph at cathode anode in a cell and they are as to be expected , high and low , I suspect that’s why there is a swirling motion in the water while they operate.
I was listens to a science show a while back where it was stated what water could be taken to 400 c and still not boil if it was completely ionized , something to do with surface tension and vibration if I fathom what he was talking about .
He did warn though if a speak of dust was to fall in its catalytic effect would be lethal , I have noticed a change in the surface tension or feel of the water when these processes are done and have read that the molecule cluster size is drops from 13 to 5 , I combine this water with the negative charging effect that ultrasonic transducers create some really reactive water , when this is feed though ultraviolet light in contact with Tio2 to crack the hydrogen off ,and magnetic fields then hold the oxygen in contact with the uv , this causes it to jump ion states from o2 to o3 and o4 and I hope higher states that that can be achieved .
The kJ mol values for oxygen are ,
1 st 1313.9
2 nd 3388.3
3 rd 5300.5
4 th 7469.2
Hydrogen is 1312.0kJ mol in the 1 st and it doesn’t increase with any way that I know of so it seems to me work on the oxidizer as it can contain more energy and it's cheap to make.
Robbo.
Yep Robbo, water at the electrodes will be more acidic or alkaline depending on which electrode you're at due to ions.
Water can boil at ridiculously low temperatures if pressure is reduced enough. If you put a few ounces of water into a bottle and create a vacuum, there will come a point where it will readily boil off at room temperature. Likewise the boiling point of water can be raised many degrees by pressurising it.
There may well be processes that reduce the cluster size of water, but ionising it and stopping it from recombing into water is a whole different concept. You have two unlike charges and the thing they most want to do is recombine and neutralise themselves. This is why I say you can only charge up water with either -ve or +ve ions... not both. And you have to somehow remove one kind of charge.
Lord Kelvin's Dropper Experiment shows this very well. It also shows that charged water (either -ve ions or +ve ions) will give you a shock and go to ground the first chance it gets. It is just like a charged capacitor... touch the electrodes and you will know about it.
So, charged water by it's very nature won't sit there charged for long and would not be very easy to utilise.
I'm not sure what ion states has to do with O2, O3 and O4, as the oxygen molecule can't simply jump ion states to become ozone, it calls for a reaction between at least 3 oxygen molecules.
Excited molecules with electrons in higher orbits don't simply become another, larger molecule.
You haven't by any chance been reading too much into 'H20power's' wacky theories have you?
You haven't by any chance been reading too much into 'H20power's' wacky theories have you?
Your wacky if your backed by facts and wacky if not, sometimes I wonder what your agenda really is buzz.
Farrah Day , can't say I'v heard of H2Opower , but will surly have a look now ;) , picking up e volts from uv light is what it dose its a pretty standard process , and I will add proven , no one is sure if its only the Uv or the magnets are helping out as well.
Its a work in progress , thats why I'm here reading all and sundy regarding these issue , Havn't found much though , but thanks for the lead.
Robbo.
Hi Robbo
Can you just clarify what it is you are actually trying to achieve?
Are you looking to produce hydrogen and oxygen from water? Or are you just trying to charge water... if so, to what end?
Hi all have a short vid of what I'm doing with uv , tio2 , a water fogger and magnets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR5we9i5J98
you know that system I told you about for the hi/low ph water , well if one was to have a system like that setup and bubbled hydroxyl through the alkaline side would it thieve the bonding electrons and break the bond , these electrons would then travel across the bridge to the acid water thus leaving the hydrogen free to float off ?
any thoughts
Robbo
Cool setup keep us posted, Im gonna try your charged water setup
Thanks Dave , I’m aiming at direct conversion to electricity via hydrogen /oxygen , a few old hard disk drive platters ( platinum plated ) and some wet suit material for the membrane its getting closer will keep you informed .
Robbo
Quote from: robbosdog on September 28, 2009, 09:57:16 PM
Thanks Dave , I’m aiming at direct conversion to electricity via hydrogen /oxygen , a few old hard disk drive platters ( platinum plated ) and some wet suit material for the membrane its getting closer will keep you informed .
Robbo
If this doesn't work out real well, I've been studying the tries at disassociating water into O & H and find that working in wavelengths that correspond to the circumference of the oxygen covalent radius puts energy into the shared electron shells of both and upsets that balance.
You have to move the atoms farther than the Van der Waals radius or they'll snap back at the speed of light, and this is the main reason people trying all that only get a fraction of the efficiency available.
I've designed the concept of using a plasma of water instead of a liquid, fired up by these frequencies and using a strong magnetic field with polarity to drive the free atoms apart and give them time to combine to form molecular oxygen and hydrogen to add to the manifold.
This is different than using a form of electrolysis to power them apart and theoretically should offer a lot higher efficiency so much less current if I got it right, working on circuitry at the moment.
The energy required to do this isn't much, but the technique is everything ... no experiment yet, still in the design process but wanted to add this concept to the thinking.
@Timallard
Sounds interesting an approach I havent heard of, would like to hear more.
Dave
Using electrolysis is brute force, exciting the molecules so much they are literally blasted apart, however even as they are, many recombine because the atoms aren't held beyond the Van der Waals radius per se but are just blown off so are attracted again back to any water molecule missing an atom or two instead of the oxygen combining with another oxygen and likewise for the hydrogen.
If you apply power that's related to these distances in the sub-atomic world the atoms don't have a chance to recombine as easily because the frequency puts the power into where it does more good at separating and keeping the atoms apart that critical distance.
Photons should be more effective at this so I've also begun to study that relationship and design a photon model of the same idea.
My work is based on the Einstein-Sternglass view of the sub-atomic world and although I respect the Copenhagen school, I disagree with their theory and feel they created the math from observation too often instead of creating the theory and applying it to situations ala Sternglass, who carried the idea that sub-atomic is a structural arrangement and did a few papers on that.
So, in this case, to have a frequency relate to these short wavelength the aim is to use one where at the speed of light it travels the circumference of the outer electron shell, and by adding power the current disrupts the sharing of those outer electrons which is what makes the bond so strong. Without that and with continued frequency interruption, the atoms freed no longer can easily recombine and if in a plasma charged at both ends, the atoms will migrate to each where combining as molecular O2 or H2 can happen merely due to having so many free atoms, the frequency retarding this somewhat but without the right balance of numbers, 2:1, H:O, it's just easier for them to attach to another of the same atoms.
That's my approach, and while I might have the frequency a bit off, it's in the ballpark, this should be easy to prove but I'm not in a position to create experiments so if anyone able wants to explore this angle please contact me.
And of course if you have more questions I'll try to elaborate on what I've got going, the first item that got me going is the Compton radius of an electron, turns out a photon can spin there at nearly the speed of light, totally captured as an orbital, and, sub-atomic transactions with electrons accept and emit photons ...
timallard , thanks for your input , although your mention of brute force ? I’m using Uvc light Titanium dioxide and electron charge from magnets and the input water is from a water fogger , hardly what I would call electrolysis.
Please before you “go on “ have a look at the video link above and comment about it , as its on video its not “ hypothetical “ did you know electricity can be extracted directly from ozone ? if not please do some research first then your welcome to contribute , I would enjoy your input as long as its on topic.
I am basing all this on these facts , I need to remove / add ions to get it to work , hence the water treatment devise above do you know the effect on water a 1.7 mhz water fogger produces if not , more research .
Also The hydrogen bond is approximately 30 times weaker than a normal covalent bond, because only one of the contributing atoms is supplying electrons to it; the two electrons stay mainly concentrated near the oxygen. Because the hydrogen bond is so weak, it is easily broken. At room temperature, thermal energy is enough to break hydrogen bonds. In liquid water the whole network of hydrogen bonds “ flickers,'' each bond making and breaking again in a millionth of a microsecond. It is this network of flickering hydrogen bonds that gives liquid water its unique properties.
As you will know the ph of water is held in relation to proportions of hydroxyl and oxygen , Oxygen having a lowering effect and hydroxyl a raising. So when you separate the anions and the cations with the water charger described above we effectively have water that wants to steal electrons and as stated the alkaline water thieves them to try and return to a natural balance , when they flicker as mentioned above the water steals the bonding electrons and as there are none present to replace them and the water falls apart.
The platinum / oxygen / hydrogen part is for torsion field generation and is what a devise called a joe cell works on , they are all part of my system and its quit complex , that’s why I post short parts of it , its way above what you a “talking†about .
See , now I have had to respond with a long winded boring post , and to be frank I dislike having to do so.
Look forward to some constructive input from you after you study a bit.
Robbo
by the way Farrah Day , please do the same b4 , you remove the last doubt , being yhafc b4 walking around naked ( the king has no clothes ) , wouldn't b good for your image ; read namesake .
regards robbo.
Quote from: robbosdog on September 30, 2009, 04:22:57 AM
timallard , thanks for your input , although your mention of brute force ? I’m using Uvc light Titanium dioxide and electron charge from magnets and the input water is from a water fogger , hardly what I would call electrolysis. <snip>
Excuse my ignorance of your work, sounds interesting.
Having the 1.7Mhz do something makes sense, it's very close to a multiple of the fundamental freq for the oxygen circumference (almost exactly 705 times), the fact that it "fogs" water isn't surprising at all, then, I keep getting 2.411 GHz as the target freq to use, have you tried that?
Also, there may be other multiples of the fundamental that do something, this tidbit supports my work spot on ... nice.
Have you explored using a plasma instead of liquids? In my case I was using steam and didn't do a thing to the water, tap water, whatever you have ... boiled by the exhaust manifold on the engine, low pressure, not dry so not very hot but a gas nonetheless.
My thing is a product, it fits under the carburetor, can't be more than 1/4" thick, easy to install, so it may not be the ultimate as what you're working on but can be useful.
My purpose is to turn the fuel/air mix into a plasma to increase breakdown of the mist into individual molecules so it burns better, and others I was inspired by were working on the water thing.
This same technique looked applicable to water as steam, and saw where some of you are working on disassociation so these are suggestions for you to try on your work, I'll study what you're up to and see if I can offer any more later after mulling it over for a while, may be applicable to what I'm doing as well so thanks for the clues.
Just a note, I've been working on this two weeks, decided on a strategy to disassociate water that takes less power and find it explains "quirks" of the effect of frequency on behavior from anecdotal stories of a low frequency that did the job and others, haven't research a thing, just did the design work and found the fundamental frequency that turns out explaining phenomena correctly to four places.
Cool, may not be just "talking" about it ... may be OK at applied physics and have a few things up my sleeve buckaroo.
Hi timallard , good work old boy keep at it !!! , it could have something to do with 7.83 hertz ( or multiples there of ) that’s the frequency of the atmosphere it is supposed , have you had a read anything about “The Schumann Resonances†? it may help in what you are researching .
Regards ,
Robbo
Robbo, thanks, will check it out for sure, have a clue now of some of your strategies but not much time into it yet.
cheers,
tom
Tom , there are two sites I have gained a lot from you may want to have a look
http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html ( right up your ally )
http://www.ionizers.org/water.html ( graph near the bottom )
it seems to depend on where the water was obtained from and its state on charge.
Have fun Robbo
p.s are you from oz or kiwi ?
Cool, thanks, in the pile, wanted any water as a better product but know it doesn't always work out, will look into the conditions of the water closely ...
Tossed in the carbon atom and working with busting up biodiesel as well since I'm working on a project to use sewage wastewater effluent for a renewable source of biomass for transportation fuels worldwide, haven't researched biodiesel molecular structure yet, later for that ...
Was a long time in seattle, now in phoenix, wish I was in oz or nz right now, not very impressed with phx, never able to visit yet but someday.
cheers, tom
p.s. read Sternglass' paper on electron-positron pairs, think you'll like the concepts.
A lot of UV light gets used in sewage treatment these days ( hint , hint ) it might turn bio fuel into hydrogen and co2 gas ;) not sure ;) .
I work with the treatment plants here , and have seen them remove all sorts of contaminants , the cell in my vid attempts to charge oxygen past o3 that's what you need to smash things ;)
will have a read of your link is it about 104 degree angle ?
Robbo
Tom had a quick over veiw of Sternglass' paper on electron-positron pairs , I take it you would have heard of Royal Rife ?, same bent diffrent outcome , will read more about this though sounds interesting.
Robbo
Quote from: robbosdog on October 02, 2009, 12:17:45 AM
A lot of UV light gets used in sewage treatment these days ( hint , hint ) it might turn bio fuel into hydrogen and co2 gas ;) not sure ;) .
I work with the treatment plants here , and have seen them remove all sorts of contaminants , the cell in my vid attempts to charge oxygen past o3 that's what you need to smash things ;)
will have a read of your link is it about 104 degree angle ?
Robbo
The UV is to kill pathogens but it's pretty high freq so might be useful, somewhat same idea, my strategy is just having it pass through an envelope of a magnetic field to shake things up that turns it into a plasma ...
For the biodiesel you use secondary effluent, water & dissolved solids and the biota eat that to get squeezed, contaminants and all, it's too rich for algae at first so this is done is stages ... at the end the water is tertiary treated back to potable, recycled.
Haven't worked on the polarity or 104-deg much yet, there have to be tricks from them, those animations of the movements (found that page before a while ago) mean most things can't break the bonding past the van der waals radius so they snap back, interjecting the right freq should do the trick without much power is the idea.
The 7.83Mhz is 1/308th (307.96935) of the freq that relates to the oxygen covalent circumference (2.411GHz) ... not a coincidence, only harmonics should work so this one kinda' proves my hunch about using freq to blast it apart ... the graph of freq between states was a clue, as a gas there's a range of freq that show peaks, will check those out, may relate to something useful as a plasma.
I extended the Sternglass idea to find that a photon can orbit an electron using the maximum mass for a photon possible from astronomical observations at 0.9999999% of the speed of light ... math works out to the Compton radius, blew me away, redid the calcs over a couple of weeks to be sure, never found an explanation for that radius before but I'm not an academic so don't have access to much literature.
Anyway, for free energy the idea that much of the sub-atomic world can be structural like that may help find something was the thought, it's a fresh view vs quantum mechanics.
Tom , did you that wireless modems work on that frequency ? (2.411GHz) so there is a cheap source of parts for your generator , just need an amplifier , this is why I won't have them in my home , we are 80% water after all god knows what damage they cause the human body .
Uv light and electron charge can achieve much more that just kill virus ect . Oxygen with the right charge can break complex molecules into their base atomic forms , diesel for example is C12H23 and it can break it into H23 and C12 a handy trick as it’s the C that’s stuffing the world/environment up .
Calcium carbonate is barely soluble in water so if we use the above and bubble it through calcium the carbon would be transmuted into calcium carbonate and is hence captured .
It’s a lot bloody simpler than geo sequestration , but I will admit doesn’t sound anywhere near as exciting /sexy , they just make money out of people having a poor grasp on science , and the scientists need the research funds to pay for their lifestyle ( with a few , expenses paid conferences on tropical islands to boot ) , and wouldn’t need years and years worth of funds to come up with a dodgy result at best.
I would like to suggest that you don’t get to bound into subatomic stuff , its good for paper work and wasting trees that’s about all , its mostly based on flawed principals anyways .
Regards ,
Robbo
Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) 0 to 3 KHz
Very Low Frequency (VLF) 3 KHz to 30 KHz
Radio Navigation & maritime/aeronautical mobile 9 KHz to 540 KHz
Low Frequency (LF) 30 KHz to 300 KHz
Medium Frequency (MF) 300 KHz to 3000 KHz AM Radio Broadcast 540 KHz to 1630KHz
Travellers Information Service 1610 KHz
High Frequency (HF) 3 MHz to 30 MHz
Shortwave Broadcast Radio 5.95 MHz to 26.1 MHz
Very High Frequency (VHF) 30 MHz to 300 MHz
Low Band: TV Band 1 - Channels 2-6 54 MHz to 88 MHz
Mid Band: FM Radio Broadcast 88 MHz to 174 MHz
High Band: TV Band 2 - Channels 7-13 174 MHz to 216 MHz
Super Band (mobile/fixed radio & TV) 216 MHz to 600 MHz
Ultra-High Frequency (UHF) 300 MHz to 3000 MHz
Channels 14-70 470 MHz to 806 MHz
L-band: 500 MHz to 1500 MHz
Personal Communications Services (PCS) 1850 MHz to 1990 MHz
Unlicensed PCS Devices 1910 MHz to 1930 MHz
Superhigh Frequencies (SHF) (Microwave) 3 GHz to 30.0 GHz
C-band 3600 MHz to 7025 MHz
X-band: 7.25 GHz to 8.4 GHz
Ku-band 10.7 GHz to 14.5 GHz
Ka-band 17.3 GHz to 31.0 GHz
Extremely High Frequencies (EHF)
(Millimeter Wave Signals) 30.0 GHz to 300 GHz
Additional Fixed Satellite 38.6 GHz to 275 GHz
Infrared Radiation 300 GHz to 430 THz
Visible Light 430 THz to 750 THz
Ultraviolet Radiation 1.62 PHz to 30 PHz
X-Rays 30 PHz to 30 EHz
Gamma Rays 30 EHz to 3000 EHz
what did you want to know about 2.411GHz?
Me ? bugger all , I can cut and paste quit well myself thanks ;) ,
http://www.adec.edu/tag/spectrum.html
Tom might find it usefull though ;)
thanks for the input .
Robbo
2.411GHz = 2411MHz = Full wavelength(11.8cm)
Halfwave = 5.9cm
Quarterwave = 2.9cm
hope this helps also.
Jerry ;)
Nice input, thanks.
To explain the 2.411Ghz, it relates to the circumference of the oxygen atom's covalent radius, if you inject that frequency the signal travels on the outer shell and adds energy, that affects the shared electrons.
Some of the lower freq harmonics are known to produce odd or unexpected results such as the fogging, the 1.83Mhz signal, which divides pretty much as an integer into the 2.411Ghz so is a harmonic, but, likely too low to really blow the molecule apart as the higher freq does have more power and is related to the relativistic forces more than a fundamental or lower harmonic.
I've got the circuits but they need to drive magnets to create the plasma at that freq to basically disassemble the fuel molecules instead of having the volatility of the fuel vaporize to "mix" the fuel on the way into the manifold, so, working on the coils that can operate at that freq without being too lossy.
The reason for that freq is to separate things, it's also to keep them separated beyond the Van der Waals radius so they don't reassemble, at lower freq they have time to snap back to a much larger degree so that takes away from the possible efficiency.
The magnetic field is polarized so will drive free oxygen to one pole and the hydrogen to the other by their intrinsic charge, much like electrolysis but not. This won't be a perfect separation by any means but will be far more efficient than standard electrolysis and can be done to the carbon atom so hopefully will blast the hydrocarbon chains as well, that freq is 1.895Ghz so I'm working on how to combine them and may discover some tricks, exploring the numbers to find harmonics that may do both.
I was checking out the absorption bands of water vapor at 25C to get some more clues, nothing solid on that yet.
Since this is a new project and I don't have much design time in yet and it's already shown to be valid at explaining the fogging as a harmonic of the 2.411Ghz, kinda' stoked, pretty sure it'll work out and may offer about 30% better fuel burning than relying on volatility to disperse the liquid fuel into a gas on the way to the cylinder.
Thanks for the links and freq chart, it all helps ... will post when I get to conclusions or find a good plan for dragging it into a free-energy concept, there may be a net gain at the correct freq if I can get resonance into it, may be higher than what I'm using so I keep that in mind and the chart will help me map it, I was using x-ray freq at first, may still be useful as they are powerful, haven't extended harmonics up yet ...
cheers,
tom