The whole homopolar generator range of ideas
have always been real strong generators.
However the minimal voltage
and massive current is lost
in brushes and conductors.
Tesla took a wack at it
and settled on a conductive belt (As example).
So the exact point of my starting this new topic
is for all and any ideas that eliminate brushes.
I'll throw one in to start...
The dipole is the potential from the center of a disc
to the outer edge of the same (Spinning) disc
with the full disc face bathed in a magnet field.
Apparently the magnet need not spin with the disc BTW.
What if a heavy radial axle was the center conductor,
and it extended a fair distance from the disc initially.
Then from that (Extended) end of the axle
Just before the bearing (on the end of the shaft)
A heavy disc was brazed/welded on
that is the same size as the original disc
in that magnetic field.
Basically two identical sized disc's
placed on each end of a shaft
placed in just enough from the end
to leave room for high speed bearings.
Now...
From the edge of the generator disc
to the edge of the (Other) center conductor disc
you lay horizontal buss strips from one disc to the other
from disc edge to disc edge laterally.
(Like a hampster wheel as example)
Thin enough to allow the ideal
voltage verses current ratio
to produce the strongest magnetic field.
Those buss bar strips are now essentially
the (Energized) rotor poles of a generator.
The force to turn the disc
is not under Lentz's law of drag.
In theory no dynamic drag will occur
until you attempt to harvest that field.
The high current from the homopolar disc
should make a very strong field in the buss bars.
In fact a car engine starter rotor's pole busses
might be a fair match for the N-Machine's current.
And they are already manufacured for us.
OK,
now to run off the cliff with this idea...
What if BOTH discs had opposing N/S magnetic bath fields?
Would the current through the rotor pole busses double?
The magnet(s) can sit still also, right?
Basically,
if you can't catch the current for use because it is spinning,
then make what you want to use the current for spin too...
OK,
How bad is my idea so far ?
Did I run off the cliff yet ?
My idea can be eliminated fast with this one question.
The magnets have to cover the whole surface.
The (Current) path must be from the center to the edge.
Must the (Edge's) sample point
be stationary in relation to the disc?
Of course...
you could use buss bars that are to small,
and have a dandy heater (LOL)
Here is an idea. Use finger plates like those found in car alternators. The bad thing is it might affect the consistency of magnetism through the disk and reduce performance.
For the magnetic field your bus bars cant go strait from periphery to periphery. They have to go around a circle like a solenoid coil. (Left hand coil rule)
Here there are no opposing fields. Just one field, strait through so the current goes center to periphery, center to periphery then back to the start through the shaft. (Multistage optional)
Well, that was fun. I'm so tired. need sleep. bye bye....
I check back fairly regularly,
but I'm not getting any bites.
Yes AngryScientist that's a good start.
But here is why I started this half-baked concept thread.
I have read that the point of contact cannot turn with the disc,
but I have never read of anyone actually CONFIRMING failure...
Gosh, a fairly sizable thin disc,
with a light draw LED would do.
Just spin it first and use test leads.
one to the shaft, one to the edge.
To make sure the disc is sufficient for the LED.
Then solder one lead to the edge,
the other as close to the center as practical.
Of all the reading I have done
one thing stands out more that all others.
The full area of the disc must be
bathed in the magnet's field.
So I guess that what I meant above
was solder the inner and outer lead
at what the inner and outer edges
of the ring magnet being used align at.
Even though spinning
it should be easy to see,
in a darkened room that is.
A success of any load while stationary (Edge brush),
of a load that can survive the spin of the second test
will tell me my idea has no merit.
Again, everyone "Says" it won't work everywhere,
but I'm asking someone with a few goodies handy
to CONFIRM it won't work please..., OK ??? :)
Thanks in advance
I am copying a post I wrote in another thread that I think works here also
I had a discussion of this elsewhere and thought of aluminum disks. I wonder if the voltage would be higher due to less resistance than copper. But then maybe a copper ring to the outside for commutator as AL. would prob not be good there. Off topic for some, hard drive disks, are the coated with platinum? Those may be great for hho.
Being not many have delved into these devices, I would like to consider some facts that may not be true. Maybe the magnets can spin and the disk stay still. This would be a great advantage. It is very possible the very simple to be discouraged. That said, if I take my pulse motor coils and mount them to my rotor magnets, add a commutator and brushes, will it generate power if it spins? If the answer is no, then I would like to see some facts on that. Or come up with my own. =]
Is it possible that suppressive actions on this go all the way back to Faraday? Could it be that the paradox does not exist? If we had 10 of these in series, would the voltage add up to a very readily usable supply?
My Great Grand Father, With ties to Westinghouse AND posibly Tesla had 2 motors connected at the shaft and all wires went to a box with a switch, give it a spin and it never stops accelerating. The switch would have to be thrown. My Grand Father told me of this many times. GGF was approached and threatened due to showings all over town, about 60 miles from Pitt. where Westinghouse and Tesla had done some work. GF said that he tossed the box and that was that. Later when GF, who was young when this all happened and did not realize the value of such, searched for that box, but could never find. But maybe GGF was as clever as Tesla. Maybe one of those motors was just internally different, or both.
Just food for thought.
Anyway, Im glad there are some here whom are willing to talk about this, and I am willing to hang in if you are. =]
Magluvin
Quote from: Magluvin on January 02, 2010, 11:58:26 PM
Maybe the magnets can spin and the disk stay still.
This I have seen an answer to.
The magnet can remain stationary.
Also, I have seen the spinning of only the magnet,
with the disc stationary.
Nope, no such luck, It doesn't work.
Now if both the brushes and magnet were spinning,
and the disc stationary...dunno...???
Quote from: Magluvin on January 02, 2010, 11:58:26 PM
If we had 10 of these in series, would the voltage add up to a very readily usable supply?
Yes, I have seen an arrangement of pairs of discs on same shafts.
All shaft segments were lined up axially, but electrically isolated.
The end disc of the first pair's edge brush,
would go the edge brush of the beginning disc of the next set.
So each pair of shared shaft discs double the yield initially,
then adding dual disc sets concurrently with insulated couplings
could be added until the desired voltage was obtained.
Dunno about the aluminum as a disc material though.
Magnets don't attract copper disc's,
yet they work non the less ...
I know the majority will say "Duh, of course"
as copper is used for coils too.
But this is a different animal we are experimenting with.
So the fact you can wind aluminum coils with success,
doesn't automatically mean it will work in this application.
A homopolar generator cannot actually be modeled
using Faraday's own law of electromagnetic induction
because the magnetic field is stationary for starters.
Then there is the point that the Faraday disc's conductive path
is parallel to the magnetic flux applied
and therefore encloses no magnetic flux.
I mean, try making a coil with conductive carbon graphite filament,
it just doesn't seem to make a darned thing magnetically
even tough you can clearly see current being measure with an inline shunt.
I think that is a clue to something we are all missing in my opinion...
OK, massive current at minimal voltage...
Making it back into magnetism seems kinda dumb...
So look at it his way for a sec.
heat.
Lotta current for a near short circuit?
Heat fits the bill.
OK, use this pic as a starting point for a sec:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8516.0;attach=40661;image
Now make both shafts thickwall metal tubes.
Send an insulated solid rod through the whole thing.
To be the bearing for the two tubes,
And hold the magnets suspended and pinned to each other.
Now we have our dipole available WITHOUT brushes
The left tube is one terminal, the right tube the other.
Now attach a three spoke wheel/ring
made of heavy conductive material
to both ends of the thickwall tubes.
Lastly attach light buss's of flat stock material
from the left ring to the right ring.
But twist then to effectively make a squirrel cage fan.
Now you have a squirrel cage fan
where the "Blades" are resistive heater material.
The two rings would have to be large enough,
and their respective tri-spokes long enough too,
to clear the cylinder in the middle that generates the current.
And NO BRUSHES...
I have thought of a brushless homopolar motor with several windings so the voltage can rise and current decrease, but havent't found a way to do it. The magnetic field will somehow go back to the oposite pole of a magnet and therfor cross the very same windings on its way back so any induction is canceled out.
The closest to brushless I can imagine is using steel ballbearings as "brushes".
Using a toroide coil which is separated in two along the circumference at both outside and inside diameter so one half are free to spin. This will probably be a pure DC generator. What do you think?
Thanks Comp
As for aluminum, I have seen aluminum wound inductors, and EV pro speakers use aluminum coils.
I was just wondering since the aluminum would be higher in res than copper, if the voltage would be greater that the copper. And maybe it would not be that much. Copper is fine. =]
I have to run at the moment but I want to comment more on what you wrote, and thanks a lot! =]
Magluvin
Low Q
Thats awesome, I have to run, but will be back to talk about that too.
Mags
OK, nice start. :)
At this point we have this string of contributions:
1 - CompuTutor #1
2 - angryScientist
3 - CompuTutor #2
4 - Magluvin #1
5 - CompuTutor #3
6 - CompuTutor #4
7 - Low-Q
8 - Magluvin #2
9 - Magluvin #3
However, there are also those here
that have poked around in these areas
and HAVE the ability to give feedback
as to the viability of these ideas...
They have already tested these ideas in one form or another.
Like the aluminum/copper issue.
We all know that a cylinder magnet dropped through a copper tube will fall very very slow due to the currents induced in the copper and the opposite reaction created by magnetism in the copper produced by the reaction to the action.
We also know that aluminum can produce/induce current in coils,
and will operate in the opposite manor to the homopolar generator
as the aluminum disc in that power meter on the side of or houses indicates.
An induced field causes the aluminum disc to turn...
But, as example:
Will a cylindrical magnet dropped in an aluminum tube fall slow?
Will an aluminum disc also produce like a copper disc in a homopolar?
You see, someone reading this has a magnet
and an aluminum tube as example...
That one's easy.
But spinning an aluminum disc would take a few moments to setup.
We have all read somewhere "It can" or "It can't" happen.
I'm trying with all my might to stop these answers
from being posted to this one thread.
I don't mean this out of disrespect to anyone,
but please only answer if you personally have done "It"
Or have seen it in what you believe to be an honest video.
I am re-testing all assumed answers to date,
and disgarding all passed-down assumptions.
Of course my questions still stands.
Must the outer contact point remain stationary
in relation to the spinning homopolar disc?
I see no reason why my squirrel cage heater
above (Post #5) wont work
if the edge contacts can be stationary.
-OR-
The magnet can remain stationary in relation to the spun disc.
That I have seen that done physically in a lab vid at one point.
So, can the disc stand still,
and the brushes AND magnet be spun instead?
I'm throwing that out there for fun,
but it might rule out something of interest later.
Something like this,
http://www.slmti.com/drives/default.asp
or this
http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2003/10/15/30961/dyson-sweeps-up-vacuum-cleaner-market-with-100000rpm.htm
Really wish I had two or three of these 100K rpm.
Is your motor akin to either of these ,if so which?
Joe in Texas
The Dyson motor in a blender would make a mean margarita...LOL.
But no, neither of those.
The basic difference Joe, is they use a conductor (Wire)
in a winding of many turns (Electromagnetic coil).
What we are talking about here uses the disc
as the current path to make the magnetism.
Well, and we supply and additional magnet
to interact with to obtain the result.
Now take that "Motor" concept and reverse it to be a generator
that is what we are talking about.
Although the magnet is optional.
Got your attention?
Example:
Take two regular ball bearing races
and push a conductive metal rod through both.
attach a pair of battery terminals to the outer races
of each of those bearing races and the shaft will spin.
Very Very fast in fact.
There are no magnets, no windings, only a current path.
A current path that exibits magnetism in the three pieces.
The vortexing/spiraling nature of electricity is what spins the shaft.
No one has determined exactly why this works so well.
Not to any degree I could ever find satisfactory anyway.
I am (In this thread) trying to separate
what actually does and does not happen
concerning the twisting nature of magnetism
in devices that utilize this method.
OK, and create/collect a few really off the wall ideas...
I always got a kick out of the fact
that Faraday's own rules could not be applied
to his own discovery of the homopolar disc.
Bet that baked his noodle a bit.
Very good stuff Compututor
I had seen the yt vid of the bearings, no mags and it is sweet.
Now I get where you are coming from and it is a nice place.
I have to get to work.
And that Dyson motor, I want to put that in my car as an electric supercharger! lol 4 bar! thats just sick.
Be back later
Mags
Oh and the mags in the drum is genius! =]
Mags
Got my attention?You be to ass,got my attention.
QUOTE FROM:::ComputerTutor
But no, neither of those.
The basic difference Joe, is they use a conductor (Wire)
in a winding of many turns (Electromagnetic coil).
What we are talking about here uses the disc
as the current path to make the magnetism.
Well, and we supply and additional magnet
to interact with to obtain the result.
Now take that "Motor" concept and reverse it to be a generator
that is what we are talking about.
Although the magnet is optional.
Got your attention?
Yes,you explain quite well
I wonder if I used this method to spin a Faraday Disc
http://hackedgadgets.com/2006/05/26/hard-drive-platter-tesla-turbine/
Would I land two birds with one runway?
And would the liquid mercury brushes splatter all over the place?
Would a custom fender cover that problem?
Stefan has been notified of the spammer ...
uh? I had a lot of time on my hands the last two days.
but it doesn't make me a spammer, all my ideas went
into the correct forum catagories. But ok, I'll cut back
on the coffee.
As for the Idea of spinning a faraday disc like you would
a Tesla Turbine, what's wrong with that? This is after
all, the "Half Baked Ideas" section. It could even spin
several at 15,000 RPM, but just realized this is "Brushless"
Sorry, I'll shut up and listen, hoping you solve the problem,
as it would be a great breakthrough.
Quote from: Foggy-Notion link=topic=8516.msg220504#msg220504 A=1262927726
ok, I'll cut back
on the coffee.
Gosh NO foggy,
your just misunderstanding my friend :o
Are you paranoid or something LOL ?
There was a spammer posting mindless word strings,
I reported it to get the user and all posts deleted,
I posted that post to stop duplicate notifications.
The user is gone, as is the posts you now don't see.
So having not seen that mindless verbal-vomit...you assumed it was you...
Heheh, relax fella, your just fine.
But that coffee may be
making you edgy perhaps(?).
Note: I have never been able to reply
to IM's with any of my machines or OS's.
I suspect my ISP is blocking somthing.
Thats why I did not reply to your IM.
Paranoid? me? ...er? you're only asking that to set a trap, and use the answer against me later, but I'm not falling for your trick question.
Hey, what would happen if microamp HV was introduced to a spining Faraday Disc, via Wimshurst Machine, or other device, tipping hat to Diode along the way, would the output of the Faraday Disc then have a higher voltage, while retaining it's high amp boasting rights?
Thus allowing more efficient brush use?
It works with cocktails.
Quote from: Foggy-Notion on January 08, 2010, 06:08:50 PM
Paranoid? me? ...er? you're only asking that to set a trap, and use the answer against me later, but I'm not falling for your trick question.
Hey, what would happen if microamp HV was introduced to a spining Faraday Disc, via Wimshurst Machine, or other device, tipping hat to Diode along the way, would the output of the Faraday Disc then have a higher voltage, while retaining it's high amp boasting rights?
Thus allowing more efficient brush use?
It works with cocktails.
HV would just short out, you would need something to generate the HV and the current. and fool the outside circuit into thinking it's from the same source. This would make the device more viable of course, but i don't think fooling the outside circuit would be easy.
Maybe I can send Low Volt High Amps from Faraday Disc to giant Joule Thief.
Which would in theory give me spikes of High Voltage, whilest maintaining high amps.
A Great Dane works the same as a Chiuaua.
Quote from: Foggy-Notion on January 08, 2010, 06:08:50 PM
Paranoid? me? ...er? you're only asking that to set a trap, and use the answer against me later, but I'm not falling for your trick question.
Heheh, that translates to a yes BTW ...
Anyway, I think your missing the point
of why I started this thread for all to contribute.
It wasn't to invent ways to put volts/amps IN,
it was a way to get current OUT without excessive loss
due to brushes, belts, bearings, carbon rollors, etc...
We're not trying to make a motor here,
we are trying to properly harness a generator.
Thanks for staying on topic. :)
oh, ok well the best way I heard for extracting the most current
was to run the disc through a pool of mercury, but as I said that
was a hand cranked model, over 1oo years ago, and the mercury
is (I assume) considered a "brush"? But I will think on this.
Since this is for half baked ideas, figured I throw this one out. Apologize ahead as I'm good with mechanical not so with electrical, but what if we mimicked the way lightning formed to help with the voltage problem (see pic). If this could work then we could also try parallel electrets integrated into the generator (would be easy to create, put the assembly into a glass disc as wide as the outer diameter and just rotate the assembly with nothing connected until the eddy currents heat the discs up enough to melt the dielectric, stop rotation, connect high voltage leads, wrap in fiberglass to slow cooling, short out, and wait)
Well "Half Baked Ideas" under any other name,
is still usually where most of the world's best
inventions came from.
That Illustration looks interesting.
I was wondering (forgive me if it's already been mentioned)
But I was wondering if a jet of water were used to spin the disc,
the way air or water spins a Tesla Turbine, would that water
conduct a current like a brush, but not slow down the wheel?
It is after all, the driving force. How well water conducts is
another story, well, not "well water" but,..
...what, ...one Starbucks is all I had.
I've bit my tongue like a million times one this topic as it helps this site exist,
but I just have to ask if we are all seeing the same thing.
The above post has (Of all things...) "Half Baked" high-lighted as the "Phrase Of Choice" of what people think important enough to purchase.
But upon hovering over it,
it is an ad for auto brake repair.
What does brake repair have to do with half baked ?
OK, I refreshed and other words were high-lighted now...
Thank you for stopping the autoplay on the pendulum video on the home page ! :) :) :)
I hated pausing that every time I checked for newests posts.
Heheh Foggy, your not on a caffeine-meter or ration sanction here,
something tells me it only exacerbates your current mental state anyway.
A mercury jet instead of water?
Perhaps in a vacuum enviroment to eliminate drag.
To bad mercury is so fatel and crusts upon exposure to air so badly.
Original trials had to float oil to keep mercury from crusting in the wells.
Quote from: phoneboy link=topic=8516.msg221573#msg221573 A=1263249934
.....what if we mimicked the way lightning formed.....
PhoneBoy,
I'm thankful for the submission of course,
but could you share your thinking a bit more ?
The set of numerous things that happen in the formation
of charge/finger/discharge in lightning lends me to need to ask.
Which phase are you referring to?
Here is what I can say is probably and error on my part.
A direct short to the disc has three possibilities.
The disc melts,
the shorting bar melts,
but most probably the brushes/contacts melt (First).
So the heating issue would have to be carefully persued.
But the idea you have has merit
as long as you change your idea a touch.
The disc needs to build the potential
across the whole disc's surface.
But if my original question is stands true,
and the potential can be harvested from the edge
without contact that is in motion in relation to the disc.
Then an insulator across the majority of the disc's surface,
but allowing your idea to make conact at the center and edge only.
Might yield a viable idea.
But I want to understand your idea still.
Charge to plasma is an awsome concept to follow. :)
Edit:
Upon thinking this over,
and as my original question still stands.
Whom is to say that a pair of disc's
with opposite magnet forces acting upon it
don't have a potential dipole at all points
of opposing face from the center to the edge.
If true, a medium sensitive to the dipole
could and would react to advantage. :)
@ CompuTutor, the idea was that the most common form of lightning as a whole is due to a buildup of negative charge - clouds/positive charge - ground with air as a dielectric and its subsequent breakdown. If the generator was also technically parallel capacitors with common + wouldn't charge build up as the current flowed across the discs to the periphery? As long as the load performs work we shouldn't have heating problems? Also, as far a a brushless setup goes I think Mr. Wilkes rolamite can work as a bearing and pickup in one with low friction similar to the belt drive used by tesla in his unipolar dynamo.
There are other liquid metals less toxic than mercury.
Can build these with the shaft vertical, and wheel horizontal,
Then use the Bill Beaty Pipe Cap Brush Design.
http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/freenrg/n-mach.html
Thank you for clarification on your idea PhoneBoy.
Sounds more like a Testatika static charge idea,
than an eddy current Homo-Polar/-N-Machine.
Most people don't know that lightning
starts at the + ground
and works a feeler finger up
until catastrophic dielectric breakdown occurs
from - cloud, to + ground
Quote from: phoneboy link=topic=8516.msg221778#msg221778 A=1263326650
.....Also, as far a a brushless setup goes
I think Mr. Wilkes rolamite can work as a bearing
and pickup in one with low friction
similar to the belt drive used by Tesla in his unipolar dynamo.....
A rotary rolamite idea...nice.
Essentially, a standard roller pin bearing,
with a walking strap to eliminate friction.
That would do good for the center axis contact..
Reference vid for others to follow this idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-BK_iEJ7Go
Reference Links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolamite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrollerwheel
http://erikbrinkman.com/Scroller/Home.html
US Patent Number 5,462,363
Imagine the surface speed of a belt
if it was used on the OD of a disc ?
Wow, that would be screaming...LOL
But it could employ a whole cluster of discs,
instead of just one single one like most ideas so far.
A whole array of stationary axles for discs,
with one of them a motor to feed the belt.
Each shaft having It's own smaller rolormite idea
for the center of each disc too...
Then a standard 1" ID x 3" OD magnet
would "bath" the WHOLE disc surface.
From what I understand,
it is essential the field does this.
Correct me if wrong...
My ideas that is,
not my spelling.
That's always going to suck...LOL
Is there any way we can contribute to the dictionary database
this forum engine uses for It's spell-check feature ?
It certainly doesn't contain any of the many technical terms
we all use on a daily basis while posting technical concepts.
Quote from: Foggy-Notion on January 12, 2010, 09:11:24 PM
There are other liquid metals less toxic than mercury.
Yes, your right.
Only that Mercury came up in topic
caused me to comment on "Crusting" issues.
Liquid is great for stationary machinery.
but if used in a mobile application,
it might quickly become a failure point.
Again, I am still awaiting someone to perform
the earlier LED test to confirm the outer contact
must be in motion in relation to the disc edge.
When that idea fails,
and hence all my ideas posted earlier.
Then we are back to finding a low-loss contact method.
Now remember,
the original N-Machine had conductive liquid
in a trough ALL the way around the edge.
Not just one point of contact...
Sure seems to indicate that the dipole
is equal from the center of the disc
to the entire periphery of the disc.
Hence my persuit of this specific answer.
Have anyone done any experiment on the above ideas?