If anyone wants to start a disucssion how the Steorn obro works then please post here. Stefan has blocked me from posting in the main Orbo thread, and why ... because I am posting what FEMM shows?
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg217540#msg217540 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg217540#msg217540)
How the permeability motor works:The magnet approaches the toroid, and magnetizes it. The effective permeability at this point is low. The toroid turns on during this low permeability stage. The magnets then move away thus increasing the effective permeability, and the toroid coil then turns off, but the effective permeability is higher than when they turned on. That is how the electrical energy is converted into mechanical energy, because of the change in permeability. That's why long ago in this thread I called it a permeability motor and requested Ben to do the experiment so you people could how it's working.
That's not to say Steorn's motor is not producing excess energy. We'll have to see, and I'm hopeful, but it's far far far more complex than what's being said here. The bemf is there when the current is on, and it requires current to make the motor spin. This motor does have bemf.
PL
Interesting, Is that what happened? Banned?
I was just looking at the interesting link tagor posted.
http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/index.htm
Answered some questions I had!
Alternative forums,
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8529.msg217547#msg217547
PL I don't think you are banned from the thread as I have the same issue of not being able to make new posts there, so I think it's just a temporarily glitch. But this thread has some good timing as I have some very good logic behind the mechanical energy gain.
Edit: Looks like it's fixed and I can make new posts there.
@PL,
So why do you believe there is BEMF in the core just because the magnets are present?
The permeability of the core does not change much until you reach nearly the saturation point.
If the core was already saturated, there would be little BEMF to the initial current flow because the inductance of the coil would be small.
Yes, he kicked me out for doing nothing but posting the truth. Yet stefan keeps spread a lie that this permeability motor has no bemf, but stefan refuses to even acknowledge what I've said, which is it has no bemf when there's no current, but you can't have a motor without current, lol. It does indeed have bemf if there's current in the motor.
Same old thing, encourage false information, and that way it makes it very difficult to get people to focus on the truth so we can one day have global free energy.
Quote from: lumen on December 26, 2009, 12:12:17 PM
@PL,
So why do you believe there is BEMF in the core just because the magnets are present?
The permeability of the core does not change much until you reach nearly the saturation point.
If the core was already saturated, there would be little BEMF to the initial current flow because the inductance of the coil would be small.
I've explained this. It's very easy to see in FEMM. If there's no change in effective permeability then there's no motor. The bemf is clearly there when there's current in the coil.
IMO, if there's excess energy in this eOrbo design, then it's from magnetic viscosity.
PL your paranoia has blinded you from the truth, I just said I too was locked out of the thread. Apparently you have locked the thread yourself by accident! Atleast it deserves an apology to Stefan.
Quote from: broli on December 26, 2009, 12:10:31 PM
PL I don't think you are banned from the thread as I have the same issue of not being able to make new posts there, so I think it's just a temporarily glitch. But this thread has some good timing as I have some very good logic behind the mechanical energy gain.
Edit: Looks like it's fixed and I can make new posts there.
I hope you're right. Lets see. That would just piss the hell out of me because stefan has been ignoring me ever since I spent like a month replicating gadgetmall's JT claim to only show 55% efficiency. And now to ban me from the thread because I'm only showing what FEMM shows that there's bemf when there's current in the coil. And why has stefan and gang ignored my post on this over the past 24 hours?
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 12:23:16 PM
I hope you're right. Lets see. That would just piss the hell out of me because stefan has been ignoring me ever since I spent like a month replicating gadgetmall's JT claim to only show 55% efficiency. And now to ban me from the thread because I'm only showing what FEMM shows that there's bemf when there's current in the coil. And why has stefan and gang ignored my post on this over the past 24 hours?
Don't take it too personally, my posts have been ignored as well. There's only one person I know is listening. MH is funnily enough using our words and repeating it as a parrot and somehow is getting the attention of the people. This world is upside down.
PL I'm more into live chats on an irc channel. It would be intresting to have you on a channel as well.
irc://irc.ubuntu.com/lenz
That's the place where I and someone else hang out.
Thanks broli, it's been a long time since I've been pissed like that.
Talking about live chat, are you also on Google Talk? I use the live google talk windows app, and can be reached via invite using my email address,
http://globalfreeenergy.info/contact-me/ (http://globalfreeenergy.info/contact-me/)
It's very simple, and a lot of people use it. For people who don't want to use a windows app can also use the google talk via their web browser if they have a google email account.
Stefan said I locked the other Steorn thread, but I never started that thread, period. The 1st post is mine, but the only steorn thread I started was in the "News" area under a different title, but it's now gone. Also I never clicked the lock button. As I keep telling stefan for a long time now someone keeps logging into my account and reads my private messages. Maybe they clicked the lock button.
@PL
QuoteThe bemf is clearly there when there's current in the coil.
So you think if you would connect the coil to a scope, then bias the coil with a small current, possibly supplied through a resistor, that if the rotor was rotated it would show up on the scope somehow?
Or you thinking it would only show up as a difference from applying the current when the magnet was present compared to applying the current without the magnet present.
If the coil is biased then you'll see the induced voltage from the toroid core due to the spinning magnets.
I'm not saying the over all design is not cop>1 because there might be noticeable magnetic viscosity involved, but it's misleading to say there's no bemf. There's no back emf is there's no current in the coil, but who cares about that. What matters is if there's bemf if there's current in the coil.
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 01:19:03 PM
If the coil is biased then you'll see the induced voltage from the toroid core due to the spinning magnets.
I'm not saying the over all design is not cop>1 because there might be noticeable magnetic viscosity involved, but it's misleading to say there's no bemf. There's no back emf is there's no current in the coil, but who cares about that. What matters is if there's bemf if there's current in the coil.
I can see no way that any passing magnet can induce a magnetic flow direction in a toroid core.
The basic reason that magnet motors cannot operate is because, from one magnet to another or from a steel core to a magnet, the field lines appear as a circular ball approaching.
Because of this, any field from a magnet approaching a toroid core would always intersect at a point that would cause equal field lines traveling in each direction around the core.
Any field direction already in the core would only be strengthened in one direction and weakened in the other direction by equal amounts.
This condition would not change anything unless the direction that was strengthened exceeded the saturation curve of the core.
I agree with lumen and this is also what the sims show. Below I attached some sims I did a few days ago that show what lumen is talking about. It shows that the field is divided in both direction and thus the net circular flux should be about 0. The first two are when there no current in the coil.
The last two show the situation with current through the coil. How I use my logic on this one is simple. The core has an area with increased flux and and area with decreased flux density (yes I checked it by removing the magnet and measuring the field only caused by the coil VS the field caused by coil and magnet together). You can see a toroid as many single windings in series, if you apply this reasoning you can see that the area where the flux increased the voltage will be forward while in the area where the flux is decreased the voltage will be backwards and thus cancel in total.
So in the 0 current case emf is canceled because flux lines enter from both directions about equally.
In the non 0 current case emf is canceled because there's a non uniform flux density through the coil.
That's not all. Let's assume that for some reason the flux didn't cancel completely, which I suspect since nothing is perfect, and there's a net circular flux. Meaning voltage is induced regardless of current flow or not. Even this induced EMF can be canceled by adding another coil somewhere hooked up in series in such a way that the combined EMF is forward in one coil and back in the other, meaning the net is 0 volt.
So PL I have so far no reason to believe that there's a voltage when current is allowed to flow. All my knowledge and logic so far says this is not the case. I hope your own experimentation will enlighten both of us on this.
But like I said earlier there's something mechanical which is being overlooked. If my simple math is correct the mechanical energy is indeed completely free. I have a simple thought experiment on this which if requested I may share.
Sorry for the long technical post. I don't like these myself as I'm more of a show guy than tell.
No, you're missunderstanding what I'm telling you. The FEMM clearly shows the effective permeability changes when the magnet approaches and then leaves. If there's DC current in the coil while the perm changes, then the magnetic lines in the core change, which is seen as a voltage on the toroid. :)
Anyhow, you guys won't believe this -->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e47jMCRecMY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e47jMCRecMY)
If true, then this is scary stuff!!! Yee haw :)
Besides the rapid drop in temperature (even below ambient, or so it appears-- still need to confirm that) is that rpm will all of a sudden drastically change. I've used this dremel a lot, and it does not change rpm by itself. That is such a strange effect, and I have no idea what could do that. Hey, Sean mentioned something about dark energy. Maybe that's it? :)
The rpm can just all of a sudden for no reason I'm aware of will decrease or increase by several magnitudes. Very cool.
Here's some photos.
Here's the size,
The attached image is where the magnets are located,
Hi Paul and all
Thanks for putting the work in and showing results,everybody is getting excited,including me,I hope it's not misplaced!!
A couple of questions,I think you said nothing is connected to the coil,so why is there a scope shot,and if connected to the scope,why is there a trace,as there is no cemf,or so they say.
Keep going,all good stuff!!
peter
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 06:52:20 PM
No, you're missunderstanding what I'm telling you. The FEMM clearly shows the effective permeability changes when the magnet approaches and then leaves. If there's DC current in the coil while the perm changes, then the magnetic lines in the core change, which is seen as a voltage on the toroid. :)
You are seeing things relative to other things, you have to look at the whole picture. Yes the permeability changes but it doesn't change uniformly throughout the toroid in the ON state. If the field of the coil produces 1 tesla inside the core then after adding the magnet then it will have one side at about 1.5 Tesla field while the other side becomes 0.5 Tesla. This is what the simulation shows. So part of the coil wants to induce a forward EMF since it sees a field decrease while the other part of the coil wants to induce backwards EMF since it sees a field increase. Both of these actions cancel out.
As far as you temperature anomaly I have nothing of value to say on that but it's a very interesting discovery.
Quote from: petersone on December 26, 2009, 07:35:24 PM
Hi Paul and all
Thanks for putting the work in and showing results,everybody is getting excited,including me,I hope it's not misplaced!!
A couple of questions,I think you said nothing is connected to the coil,so why is there a scope shot,and if connected to the scope,why is there a trace,as there is no cemf,or so they say.
Keep going,all good stuff!!
peter
Hi,
I do not recall saying there's nothing connected to the toroid. Here are the youtube quotes -->
QuoteThe toroid coil is not loaded and there's no current flowing through the coil.
QuoteThe wires connected to the toroid are connect to a volt meter, the oscilloscope, and a power supply, all of which were off during this footage.
The scope is on, so I need to correct that in the youtube. The volt meter is off. The power supply is off, but I don't think the wires are even connected at the power supply end. So the toroid is not loaded at all.
My next experiment will be to allow the temperature of everything settle down, and then repeat the experiment.
Why don't you guys who are replicating your version of the eOrbo also monitor temperature? :)
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 01:19:03 PM
If the coil is biased then you'll see the induced voltage from the toroid core due to the spinning magnets.
I'm not saying the over all design is not cop>1 because there might be noticeable magnetic viscosity involved, but it's misleading to say there's no bemf. There's no back emf is there's no current in the coil, but who cares about that. What matters is if there's bemf if there's current in the coil.
Hi Paul,
Just read the whole thread up to here. Now that the he said, I said, etc. is done lets get down to the good stuff.
In you magnetic cooling experiment, exactly what is your schematic. Is the coil/resistor/ supply in a simple loop and you are monitoring the bidirectional voltage shift from either magnetic induced inductance change or pure generator action, hence emf voltage shift or AC component as seen across that resistor. That, I assume is what you have been saying about the motor having back EMF when biased on by the coil.
I realize that the core is essentially a 1 turn loop and by mechanically modulating the field in that core it would cause voltage induced in the coil hence reflected into/at the PS. As the basic toroid/magnetic torque loop interface is demonstrated to be bi-directional as far as current flow is concerned, torque production is not changed/effected during 1 cycle (I'm that old). The additive and subtractive currents would cancel out as far as torque is concerned and while there is an induced emf in the loop, it has a average of zero extra energy used from the Power supply (PS) due to its being an AC component (An AC modulated DC bias). It would not tend to slow the motor down as in conventional circuits and would not increase power consumption from the supply long term and this is what we are looking for. So my consensus is that we are both right and the effects are as desired......Vote overwhelming for Paul and Ben!
If someone is logging into your account and mucking with contents, change the password?
Respectfully
Ben
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 07:53:58 PM
Won't don't you guys who are replicating your version of the eOrbo also monitor temperature? :)
A very good idea!!!
Ben
Quote from: broli on December 26, 2009, 07:38:13 PM
You are seeing things relative to other things, you have to look at the whole picture. Yes the permeability changes but it doesn't change uniformly throughout the toroid in the ON state. If the field of the coil produces 1 tesla inside the core then after adding the magnet then it will have one side at about 1.5 Tesla field while the other side becomes 0.5 Tesla. This is what the simulation shows. So part of the coil wants to induce a forward EMF since it sees a field decrease while the other part of the coil wants to induce backwards EMF since it sees a field increase. Both of these actions cancel out. discovery.
That would be true for a perfectly linear magnetic core with infinite saturation, but I was using realistic iron in my FEMM sims. :)
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 07:24:42 PM
The attached image is where the magnets are located,
Hi Paul,
With the magnets as shown N/S then S/N hitting coil, you would get that scope shot unless the magnets were perfectly match and aligned which they obviously are not as shown in scope. To repeat, if alignment and field strength on both sides were perfectly matched you would not get that deviation. IF you use just a N or S on both sides of the coil, you will get nothing if alignment is perfect. The double hump in the middle is a excellent indication of mismatching in alignment/field. Seen that many times before in "eat crow" days......
But why is it cooling. DON't change that power supply bias setting!!!!! !!!!! !!!!!Respectfully,
Ben
Quote from: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 07:57:19 PM
Hi Paul,
Just read the whole thread up to here. Now that the he said, I said, etc. is done lets get down to the good stuff.
In you magnetic cooling experiment, exactly what is your schematic. Is the coil/resistor/ supply in a simple loop and you are monitoring the bidirectional voltage shift from either magnetic induced inductance change or pure generator action, hence emf voltage shift or AC component as seen across that resistor. That, I assume is what you have been saying about the motor having back EMF when biased on by the coil.
I realize that the core is essentially a 1 turn loop and by mechanically modulating the field in that core it would cause voltage induced in the coil hence reflected into/at the PS. As the basic toroid/magnetic torque loop interface is demonstrated to be bi-directional as far as current flow is concerned, torque production is not changed/effected during 1 cycle (I'm that old). The additive and subtractive currents would cancel out as far as torque is concerned and while there is an induced emf in the loop, it has a average of zero extra energy used from the Power supply (PS) due to its being an AC component (An AC modulated DC bias). It would not tend to slow the motor down as in conventional circuits and would not increase power consumption from the supply long term and this is what we are looking for. So my consensus is that we are both right and the effects are as desired......Vote overwhelming for Paul and Ben!
Also the youtube video description was update. There's no current going through the toroid coil, well, not unless you want to consider the pico or nano amps produced by the scope. ;)
I still can't believe what I saw, even though it still needs to be redone a lot better. It was just 100% purely mechanical magnetic interactions. No coil current, well unless it was pulsing to whatever it was connected to. The DMM was off, the scope was on, but I'll have to check to see if the toroid coil was connected to the power supply. Usually I disconnect the power supply leads. So it's just 4 NdFeB magnets spinning over a toroid. The toroid has a lot of turns with fine wire, so there's probably a good amount of parallel capacitance, but that should make no measurable difference at these low frequencies.
See the drawings I posted in this thread. It shows how the magnets on one side are situated. Perhaps another drawing is in order so you can see how the magnets are situated on both sides. The other side is the same, except the magnetic polarities are the opposite is all.
Quote from: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 07:57:19 PMIf someone is logging into your account and mucking with contents, change the password?
Respectfully
Ben
I did that a week or so ago. Still looks like someone or thing is logging into my account. If anyone gets any weird PM's from me, then maybe I did not send it! A month or so ago they used to get th eir kicks by disabling my notifications, so it seems they no longer care if I even know about this, as it's so obvious.
Quote from: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 08:08:35 PM
Hi Paul,
With the magnets as shown N/S then S/N hitting coil, you would get that scope shot unless the magnets were perfectly match and aligned which they obviously are not as shown in scope. To repeat, if alignment and field strength on both sides were perfectly matched you would not get that deviation. IF you use just a N or S on both sides of the coil, you will get nothing if alignment is perfect. The double hump in the middle is a excellent indication of mismatching in alignment/field. Seen that many times before in "eat crow" days......
That scope shot was actually taken before I hand adjusted the magnets. I was able to get the coil output down a lot more, but still not perfect, lol. So in the video the magnets were better situated such that it had less interaction with the toroid coil.
Quote from: k4zep on December 26, 2009, 08:08:35 PMBut why is it cooling. DON't change that power supply bias setting!!!!! !!!!! !!!!!
Respectfully,
Ben
lol, I won't change a thing, but there was no current in the toroid coil during that video footage. The dremel motor was rotating it, but weird thing is that a lot of time all of a sudden the dremel motor rpm would drop or increase by magnitudes. Very strange effect by itself.
I still don't know if the temperature dropped below ambient. That's what the IR gun showed, but this still needs lots of careful repeats to make sure.
After checking just now, the toroid was connected to two power supplies (15V each, both in-series to get 30V, no common ground), but they were off and not connected to wall 120VAC socket.
Only last detail is what was the rpm of the dremel motor? Someone could probably find out from the video.
Anyhow, I have a headache over this, didn't eat lunch or dinner, lol. Tomorrow is another day. ;D
Hope I don't have nightmares of freezing the death, lol. Anyhow, thanks everyone for the ears.
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 26, 2009, 08:16:40 PM
That scope shot was actually taken before I hand adjusted the magnets. I was able to get the coil output down a lot more, but still not perfect, lol. So in the video the magnets were better situated such that it had less interaction with the toroid coil.
lol, I won't change a thing, but there was no current in the toroid coil during that video footage. The dremel motor was rotating it, but weird thing is that a lot of time all of a sudden the dremel motor rpm would drop or increase by magnitudes. Very strange effect by itself.
I still don't know if the temperature dropped below ambient. That's what the IR gun showed, but this still needs lots of careful repeats to make sure.
Hi Paul,
Several things come to mind.
Ol Dremels are actually DC motors with brushes, at low speeds, the will jump around a bit if the brushes are "Hoppin" in the guides or getting near the end of their life. You might want to clean the brush area and replace the brushes.
The series, non powered circuit actually has some protection diodes in it. Who knows what the impedance around the loop was.
Magnetic fields might have been changing bias in the IR meter analog section..... I have had magnetic fields muck with electronics near them.
I hope this doesn't fall into the "unreproducible results category".....yes, I have been there too, especially with Bedini circuits.....
Get a good nights sleep, keep it cool, keep building and keep uploading to YouTube, good bad or ugly. Sometimes for every step forward,
we go two steps backwards.......RPM sounded in the 2-3K rpm, at the low end range for the Dremel.
Hang in there,
Respectfully
Ben
Paul,
Using two magnets on such a tiny diameter, it is possible to force the toroid to act as two separate sections and induce a voltage in each section and the same direction.
Something like if the toroid was cut in half and two spinning magnets were placed in the gaps where it was cut.
It's the same effect as two small coils placed around opposing quadrants and energized to force a circular field through the toroid.
Try using a single magnet and see if you can achieve the same results.
Hi Paul,
you have had locked yourself the other thread either accidently
or somebody logged into your account.
Did you now change your password ?
I was wondering, why you still had connected the power supply in
off state to your coil ?
Output capacitors in the power supply then can still influence your output wave.
Better disconnect the coil from anything other than the scope.
Also what Ben says is correct, it could be, that your magnet on each side of the rotor
are misaligned.
Regards, Stefan.
Well here's some interesting news. It turns out that I had a 0.1uF capacitor connected to the scope input. Far prior to this experiment my scope probe broke, so lately I've been using a connector with two clip leads. Anyhow, the dremel drill was putting out some noise so that's the reason for the .1uF capacitor.
The toroid say 1.03 HY. Since it has a lot of windings, it could be 1.03 henry. Not sure if that would be from center tap to an end or the entire coil. The resonance of 0.1uF & 1H is 500 Hz. So the spinning setup was not terribly far away from resonance if the toroid is close to 1H. Remember there are magnets on each side, so if the dremel was spinning at say 3600rpm (60Hz), then that's 120Hz.
Also the toroid is a tad over 100 ohms from either end to center tap. Not sure how much capacitance.
Later on I connect everything to see what the resonance is.
The resistance from the power supplies is 600 ohms, and when the DMM is in diode mode it shows 0.570V. The scope itself shows 1Mohm.
Furthermore, I just looked at the rest of the video (not shown on youtube because it's way too long). Into the video I disconnected all of the wires to the toroid, and I swear the temperature immediately began increasing! ;D Let me take a look at the video to see how high it went.
Okay, here are the readouts:
* Immediately after removing all of the clip leads to the toroid (took maybe 10 seconds) the temperature read 65.3F. It was 64.8F when all wires were connected. This is at 12:25 time mark (12 minutes & 25 seconds into video).
* At 12:52 (12 minutes & 52 minutes into video) it read 65.5F.
* At 13:14 it read 66.2F.
* At 13:47 it read 66.6F. I recall reading in the IR gun manual that it has a 0.2F resolution. Don't know the details, but I've seen it show 0.1 resolution. At this point I hear the rpms going down considerably, almost a stop.
* At 14:16 it read 66.9F.
(Removed IR-gun & began measuring temperature of the dremel, which showed up to 84F on the outer plastic casing.
* At 16:17 it read 67.9F.
Also, it's important to note that the IR gun was not pointed at the magnets, but the toroid. If memory holds true, this IR gun as a 12degree angle. So all of these temperature measurements are scaled down because a lot of what the IR gun was seeing was the wooden desk. So it's probably a lot more than a 3 degree F drop. Hopefully today we can find out with the tiny 402 SMD thermistors.
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 27, 2009, 09:41:19 AM
Okay, here are the readouts:
* Immediately after removing all of the clip leads to the toroid (took maybe 10 seconds) the temperature read 65.3F. It was 64.8F when all wires were connected. This is at 12:25 time mark (12 minutes & 25 seconds into video).
* At 12:52 (12 minutes & 52 minutes into video) it read 65.5F.
* At 13:14 it read 66.2F.
* At 13:47 it read 66.6F. I recall reading in the IR gun manual that it has a 0.2F resolution. Don't know the details, but I've seen it show 0.1 resolution. At this point I hear the rpms going down considerably, almost a stop.
* At 14:16 it read 66.9F.
(Removed IR-gun & began measuring temperature of the dremel, which showed up to 84F on the outer plastic casing.
* At 16:17 it read 67.9F.
Also, it's important to note that the IR gun was not pointed at the magnets, but the toroid. If memory holds true, this IR gun as a 12degree angle. So all of these temperature measurements are scaled down because a lot of what the IR gun was seeing was the wooden desk. So it's probably a lot more than a 3 degree F drop. Hopefully today we can find out with the tiny 402 SMD thermistors.
Good work Paul,
OK, tighten up your methodology a bit more, and a few more suggestions.
Make a pick up coil and while watching waveform on scope, adjust Dremel for max. resonance in toroid.
See if you can add diode and cap from supply and scope without them (external cap and diode) and make the Toroid a compact unit.
See if it still works. Diode, cap network in, Temp. goes down, network out, open circuit, temp goes up. Small fan under toroid to speed up
heat gain back to background.
Keep at it.......Amazing ain't it!
Ben
Thanks Ben. Today's going to be an interesting day.
A few more updates on the wiring. The toroid is center tapped; i.e., two coils (100 ohms per coil). The scope (and also the 0.1uF capacitor) was connected to one side of the toroid coil, and the other toroid coil was connected to the dual power supply (no common ground) and the AM-240 DMM. The dual power supply was off and not connected to the 120VAC wall socket. The scope was on. As stated in a previous post, the dual power supply has about 600 ohms, and according to the AM-240 in diode mode it reads 0.570 volts.
Wow, this is getting exciting!
This is some very important info. I repeated the experiment this morning, and *nothing*! The temperature never decreased, and in fact all it did was *increase* by a few degrees F. That was extremely disappointing. So then I turned on the dual power supply, thus applying 30V across the 100 ohm toroid coil, 0.3 amps, for a ~ 5 seconds. The dremel motor was off when the dual power supplies were on. The toroid coil temperature (according to the IR gun) increased from ~ 68°F to over 73°F. Then dual power supply was turn off, and the dremel motor was turned on. As soon as the dremel motor was turned on the toroid core temperature began to decrease!! It went down to 65.9°F. During this period when the core temperature was cold, I removed the dual power supply connection, and the core temperature remained. Then the 0.1uF capacitor was removed, and the core temperature remained! It does not appear to be due to the 0.1uF capacitor or the being connected to the dual power supply. So I don't know why the toroid core temperature suddenly increased after removing all of the connectors during yesterdays experiment. The only difference was yesterday I removed all of the wires, while today I only removed one wire from the 0.1uF capacitor and one wire from the dual power supply.
Furthermore, after staring at it for what seemed like a long time, maybe 10 to 15 minutes, I turned off the dremel motor to see if the core temperature would increase. At this point the toroid core was 65.9°F, and it did not change immediately. According to the IR gun, it stayed at 65.9°F for maybe a minute before it clicked up past 67°F, and continued to increase. So this effect is not due to air circulation and such. Besides, there's no metal exposed to the IR gun, just tape. The toroid core temperature began to *slowly* increase to normal temperature in the mid 67's (~ 67.5°F).
So maybe the toroid core's magnetic state (domains) change (equalized?) over night, and needed to be "reset." This is very important because the temperature did not decrease at all until after the core was momentarily magnetized by the 30V/100ohm=0.3amps of current. In fact, the toroid core temperature increased by a few degrees F prior to magnetizing the toroid core.
And remember, the toroid core was only magnetized with the 0.3 amps for only ~ 5 seconds. It was not left on. The dremel motor was off while the core was magnetized. Maybe it was just a coincidence that after magnetizing the core that the effect came back. Maybe it was not the DC current, but maybe the heat.
I just did another run, and was unable to get the temperature to drop regardless what was done. Tried magnetizing the toroid coil with the dual power supply numerous times, which resulted in nothing special.
Something strange is going on. Someone took an interesting video of Steorn guy (tachoman) where he basically said that he's puzzled why the eOrbo rpm's are varying so much. I can't even begin to hypothesize what's happening here. Is this related to the source that drives passive diodes & piezos. This is well documented in my diode & piezo research where the highly shielded passive component is easily disturbed. After it's disturbed it needs time to recover. Maybe the magnetic material is now recovery, lol. One can only guess right now, but I hate this kind of stuff because I've been doing it for ages with the diodes & then piezos!!! Argggg!
Lets hope Steorn's eOrbo stability issues is only the relays, but that doesn't make much sense to me. There's circuit board doesn't appear to have big power components, so it appears the current levels is nothing significant. Also, lets not forget that the Steorn guy, tachoman himself said on camera that he is puzzled about the wide variance in rpm. Maybe location makes a difference. Maybe location varies over time.
Anyhow, just prior to typing this post I replaced the IR gun with a contact temperature probe. A slab of thermal paste was placed on the toroid, and the tiny probe was placed on that. Note, this is not my highly sensitive 402 SMD thermistor temperature unit.
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 27, 2009, 01:50:31 PM
I just did another run, and was unable to get the temperature to drop regardless what was done. Tried magnetizing the toroid coil with the dual power supply numerous times, which resulted in nothing special.
Something strange is going on. Someone took an interesting video of Steorn guy (tachoman) where he basically said that he's puzzled why the eOrbo rpm's are varying so much. I can't even begin to hypothesize what's happening here. Is this related to the source that drives passive diodes & piezos. This is well documented in my diode & piezo research where the highly shielded passive component is easily disturbed. After it's disturbed it needs time to recover. Maybe the magnetic material is now recovery, lol. One can only guess right now, but I hate this kind of stuff because I've been doing it for ages with the diodes & then piezos!!! Argggg!
Lets hope Steorn's eOrbo stability issues is only the relays, but that doesn't make much sense to me. There's circuit board doesn't appear to have big power components, so it appears the current levels is nothing significant. Also, lets not forget that the Steorn guy, tachoman himself said on camera that he is puzzled about the wide variance in rpm. Maybe location makes a difference. Maybe location varies over time.
Anyhow, just prior to typing this post I replaced the IR gun with a contact temperature probe. A slab of thermal paste was placed on the toroid, and the tiny probe was placed on that. Note, this is not my highly sensitive 402 SMD thermistor temperature unit.
Paul, is that IR probe battery powered? If so are the batteries new????? I have "discovered" ou several times with DVM batteries going low in cheep DVM's and threw off calibration. Threw them away and and only use FLUKE now.
Respectfully
Ben
The IR gun batteries are probably fine. It complains when they're low. I don't think that's the cause though.
BTW, here's a bit of good news. For the last ... oh 30 minutes it's been running without the IR gun, which was replaced with a dual indoor / outdoor thermometer probe. Placed the probe on the toroid. Prior to the test both indoor & outdoor temperatures agreed. Then fired up the dremel, and the toroid temperture has been about 0.2°F lower. ;D That's something at least. It does not wow me like the first experiment where the toroid temperature dropped about 3°F below ambient, or at least that's what the IR gun said.
What's interesting is that over time (usage) the cooling effect has slowly gone down. The first experiment wowed me. The 2nd experiment was very impressive, but didn't wow me. The 3rd experiment is ... limping; i.e., very small cooling effect. So far this is a pattern, unless I can figure out a way to make it work well all the time.
Actually, further details is that the toroid temperature during this run, which has been going for ~~ 1/2 hour, started about 1°F above ambient, and it s l o w l y closed the gap. Just a few minutes ago it was 0.2°F *below* ambient, but now it's 0.4°F below ambient. ;D
So for the moment it's doing better. ... Just checked it again, and it's now 0.6°F below ambient!!
Still inconclusive, as it all needs to be checked over & over again, and lots of calibration & control tests are needed, but it's fun stuff. :)
It was interesting watch this over time. It just seems like the effect slowly dies out over time, and builds up when resting. During this run the instrument said the toroid went up to 0.6°F below ambient temperature, which it maintained for awhile, and then began to slowly decline to it eventually went settled near ambient.
So I'll let it rest for a day.
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 27, 2009, 04:41:56 PM
It was interesting watch this over time. It just seems like the effect slowly dies out over time, and builds up when resting. During this run the instrument said the toroid went up to 0.6°F below ambient temperature, which it maintained for awhile, and then began to slowly decline to it eventually went settled near ambient.
So I'll let it rest for a day.
Yes my friend, you gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them and know when to walk away!!!!!!! Hey, try grounding one of those legs of the coil, the same ground the scope ground or ps ground was attached to?????
Later
Ben
Quote from: k4zep on December 27, 2009, 04:56:27 PM
Yes my friend, you gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them and know when to walk away!!!!!!! Hey, try grounding one of those legs of the coil, the same ground the scope ground or ps ground was attached to?????
Later
Ben
What about a control test? Replace toroid with something of same size / shape in same position and see if the cooling reoccurs to object. I belive this is just local cooling from rotor but could be wrong..
There was a thread started which indicated that AC applied to a piezoelectric conductor ( thermojunction ) may create a peltier seebeck like effect and cause cooling in one location and heating in another.
Is it possible that some other part of the circuit is heating up, and if so where?
It may be that the electric motor from the dremel or what-have-you, is interfering with the readout.
Maybe it is just the wind from the rotating dremel dropping the temperature ?
Please do a comparison without any electricity in the coils.
Am I wrong here or is this eorbo idea reflect Peter Lindemann's work?
Magluvin
It's more likely that the spinning field was inducing some current in the temperature gun. Those things are not usually shielded at all.
Hi,
I cannot build replication myself right now but here are some key points I would try out:
- use modified magnet-wheel as rotor for homopolar generator to harness output
- use magnet(s) behind toroid(s)
- use toroid(s) with iron powder core
- use PC as controller (wheel position to parallel port, toroid(s) state from parallel port), this would give rapid automated testing/optimization possibilities
- use V-track magnet arrangement and toroid(s) to overcome sticky-point
- harness heat energy from toroids using low temperature stirling engine (this is a bit mad but why not)
The spinning magnets do not effect the IR gun.
Again, the measured temperatures went *BELOW* ambient temperature. So it is not due to circulating air.
Last night I completed the control experiments.
I am now convinced this is a real cooling effect. I'm now convinced it is possible to capture excess energy from magnetic materials. It seems that it might have something to do with the state of the magnetic material. Beyond that I have no idea. It could be something as simple as the way the domains are structured. Magnetic domains do not form pretty perfect little symmetrical formations. Another option is the effect could be from an unknown source of energy.
Over time the effect fades. So anyone working on the eOrbo replications are highly encouraged to measure temperatures from the start.
All of the details are on video. So I've replicated it many times. By last night the effect was totally gone, and last night, after trying to replicate it I learned that there is no way to get the temperature to drop like that. In fact, it increases above ambient, not below.
The effect is *not* due to air circulation. In the video the temperature dropped like a rock as soon as the dremel was turned on. And the part of the video not shown is where I disconnect all of the clip leads and the temperature begins to increase to the normal ambient temperature. So it is very clear to me in that particular case the wire connections were somehow aiding the effect.
What is interesting is that this effect fades with usage. I have seen this effect countless times in peizos & diodes. The Steorn eOrbo has shown the same effect. Look how often they have to replace the eOrbos. I don't buy the story of the relays failing that often. Even the steorn guy said he's puzzled. Also, I question that the 1st Steorn demo years ago had anything to do with the bearings. This effect could be due to an unknown source of energy, that varies from location to location, or that varies over time, or varies with usage. What if the first Orbo machine ran just perfect at the Steorn building, but after running it for awhile at the demo location it failed.
And lets consider the major issue with cold fusion. Anyone who's seen the recent 60 Minutes TV show interview saw that cold fusion was verified by an anonymous scientist, but the issue they are having is ... once again "stability!" And so far they have been unable to solve the cold fusion stability issue.
And then there's the incident that occurred years ago during the start of my magnetic research where I was doing an experiment to try to capture ambient thermal energy via a magnetic core. I was using the computer parallel port via software to control the pulse timing. There input source was a capacitor, and the output went into charging capacitors. So the total input energy & output energy could be calculated. And yes, I was well aware of dielectric absorption. Time after time it would not work. One morning, without changing anything, the first thing I did was run the software, and to my surprise the charging capacitors charged far above the cop>1 point. And what was weird is that the magnetic core made the strangest sound like I've never heard before, like a deep breathing sound. I was never able to replicate that.
Oh yes, and there's my MCE (magnetocaloric effect) experiments, which also showed the same effect in that the magnetic core was highly unstable in terms of showing MCE at room temperatures. Time after time I saw how the MCE would show up during the first few measurements, but would fade over time. This was seen in various different types of magnetic materials. The mystery was never solved.
So there is something very strange going on.
Quote from: Craigy on December 27, 2009, 07:32:44 PM
What about a control test? Replace toroid with something of same size / shape in same position and see if the cooling reoccurs to object.
I did that last night. The effect did not come back. Also last night I completely removed (not replaced) the magnets to realign them because they kept getting way of out alignment with usage. Anyhow, I did not place enough tape around them, only one layer, and one of the magnets went shooting out of like a bullet, lol. So early this morning I had a chance to take a look at all of the NdFeB magnets with magnetic viewing film, and they appear to be normal, at least on a macro scale. Today I'll try to replace the magnets.
So the toroid was replaced with a different one, but somethings very different because the separation distance between magnets and toroid is a lot higher. So I'll have to look at the video again to see if there was a spacer under the toroid.
Since the setup was all apart, I had a chance to run the dremel by itself, and it does vary by itself. That's not to say all of the varying rpm is due to the dremel.
Quote from: Craigy on December 27, 2009, 07:32:44 PMI belive this is just local cooling from rotor but could be wrong..
I can now say for certain that is incorrect.
It would be great to get rid of my power consuming A/C system in my house and get me a couple dremels, some mags and a couple toroid cores and chill. =] My car can use one also. And a couple cordless for my shoes. AHHH
Mags
Also I cannot say for certain if at least some or most of the chilling effect is from magnets. When analyzing the video, it's clear that the IR gun was pointing at both the magnets and toroid, but mostly the toroid.
Well if the chilling effects do exist, it can take away some of that heat they claim to be producing.
It seems to me that the eorbo is way off from what they have had everyone believe they had.
Its not free at all, and they say so. At peswiki a replicator has a repl. going and it does work, but it is far from free.
And a yt vid of the release of a magnet from a toroid coil when powered releases shows the effect quite well.
But man it isnt what I expected at all from them.
Mags
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 28, 2009, 10:32:15 AM
The spinning magnets do not effect the IR gun.
Again, the measured temperatures went *BELOW* ambient temperature. So it is not due to circulating air.
Last night I completed the control experiments.
I am now convinced this is a real cooling effect. I'm now convinced it is possible to capture excess energy from magnetic materials. It seems that it might have something to do with the state of the magnetic material. Beyond that I have no idea. It could be something as simple as the way the domains are structured. Magnetic domains do not form pretty perfect little symmetrical formations. Another option is the effect could be from an unknown source of energy.
Over time the effect fades. So anyone working on the eOrbo replications are highly encouraged to measure temperatures from the start.
All of the details are on video. So I've replicated it many times. By last night the effect was totally gone, and last night, after trying to replicate it I learned that there is no way to get the temperature to drop like that. In fact, it increases above ambient, not below.
The effect is *not* due to air circulation. In the video the temperature dropped like a rock as soon as the dremel was turned on. And the part of the video not shown is where I disconnect all of the clip leads and the temperature begins to increase to the normal ambient temperature. So it is very clear to me in that particular case the wire connections were somehow aiding the effect.
What is interesting is that this effect fades with usage. I have seen this effect countless times in peizos & diodes. The Steorn eOrbo has shown the same effect. Look how often they have to replace the eOrbos. I don't buy the story of the relays failing that often. Even the steorn guy said he's puzzled. Also, I question that the 1st Steorn demo years ago had anything to do with the bearings. This effect could be due to an unknown source of energy, that varies from location to location, or that varies over time, or varies with usage. What if the first Orbo machine ran just perfect at the Steorn building, but after running it for awhile at the demo location it failed.
And lets consider the major issue with cold fusion. Anyone who's seen the recent 60 Minutes TV show interview saw that cold fusion was verified by an anonymous scientist, but the issue they are having is ... once again "stability!" And so far they have been unable to solve the cold fusion stability issue.
And then there's the incident that occurred years ago during the start of my magnetic research where I was doing an experiment to try to capture ambient thermal energy via a magnetic core. I was using the computer parallel port via software to control the pulse timing. There input source was a capacitor, and the output went into charging capacitors. So the total input energy & output energy could be calculated. And yes, I was well aware of dielectric absorption. Time after time it would not work. One morning, without changing anything, the first thing I did was run the software, and to my surprise the charging capacitors charged far above the cop>1 point. And what was weird is that the magnetic core made the strangest sound like I've never heard before, like a deep breathing sound. I was never able to replicate that.
Oh yes, and there's my MCE (magnetocaloric effect) experiments, which also showed the same effect in that the magnetic core was highly unstable in terms of showing MCE at room temperatures. Time after time I saw how the MCE would show up during the first few measurements, but would fade over time. This was seen in various different types of magnetic materials. The mystery was never solved.
So there is something very strange going on.
I'm still wowed by this significant cooling effect. After watching the full video time after time it's amazing. Actually the lowest temperature of the toroid / magnets went was 64.6°F. Later on in the video I pick up the IR gun and point it at various locations near the toroid & magnet. It shows the ambient temperature (away from the dremel) was 67.2°F to 67.8°F. And the exterior part of the dremel is 83.4°F. Anything near the dremel is hotter. The magnets are connected to the dremel, and so they have to counteract that heat. And the spinning magnets affect the air around it, and the toroid is underneath the magnets. So if there was no cooling effect, the toroid & magnet temperatures would be higher than ambient temperature, but they were not. They were 64.6°F or less. I say "less" because a lot of what the IR gun was pointing at was the wooden desk, so the IR gun takes the average temperature in it's view. So who knows just how cold the toroid / magnets got. Prior to taking the temperature measurements I kept filling an obviously cold breeze far colder than before.
I'll try my best to replicate this, but if the excess energy is related to the excess energy found in piezos and diodes, then it could take anywhere from a day to 3 weeks for the magnets / toroid to recover.
It sure will be nice when someone discovers how to quickly reset this effect or whatever it will be called, rather than having to wait. :)
I found out the rpm in the video is either 8600 rpm
It's 8600 rpm. There are 4 magnets, and you can see all 4 pulses on the scope per cycle. The scope was on 2ms / div, and all four pulses takes ~ 3.5 divisions. That comes to 143 Hz, which equals 8600 rpm.
Also something else I learned last night was the connection to the dual power supply, which was turned off during the video footage, shorts nearly all of the AC pulses from the rotating magnets. The DMM in diode mode shows 0.569V, both ways. The DMM wires were reversed and it still shows 0.569V. Also the dual power supply is 600 ohms, either polarity.
When the magnets are spinning, the scope shows the AC voltage across the dual power supply (while it's off and connected to one of the toroids winginds) is about 1/100th as the other toroids windings. So the dual power supply is not really shorting the entire core, and in fact has a small effect on the overall core.
Outline: So the toroid has one large winding, ~ 200 ohms, and is split in two. The dual power supply is one half, and the 0.1uF * scope are the other other half. The signal across the dual power supply is almost zero, while the signal across the other winding (0.1uF) is ~ 10 to 16 V pp (actually I have not measured it precisely yet).
Just a couple of idiotic questions . How does one chose suitable toroids for this device? How do you work out the number of turns. This is not as simple as it sounds. The object as I understand it is to saturate the core. Just suppose that the core saturates at 100 amp turns. and suppose that 100 turns of a given gauge of wire has a resistance of 1ohm. to find the necessary input voltage to give 1 amp , V+IR so, 1volt . Now we rewind it with wire twice as long . so now the resistance is 2 ohms , and we ave 200 turns. we still use a 1volt supply . But now the current is , I =V/R = 1/2 amp. But now we have a problem. In the first example , power =I XV = 1 watt. In example 2 , power = IxV =1x1/2 = 0.5 watts . So now we are saturating the core with half the power. If we double the wire length again we use one quarter the power. What is going on here please?
I just did another experiment. A new toroid and magnets were used, and the entire experiment was moved to a different location, about 50 feet away in a different room.
After starting the dremel motor the toroid / magnet temperature decreased 2.1°F in ~ a minute, according to the IR gun, and stayed there for only a few minutes where the toroid / magnet temperature then began to slowly increase in a matter of a few minutes.
So the temperature drop was short lived in this experiment, which brings up a possible issue for people who do not have fast reacting temperature meters. For this experiment you need something that reacts in a matter of seconds. What is meant by react is how long it takes the probe / device change by an appreciable percentage. Of course if you place a hot iron on the probe it's going to increase almost instantly, but that's not have fast it reacts by a certain percentage. The hot iron may be 100°F hotter, and it might take only 1 second for the meter to show a 1°F, but it could take 5 minutes to show a 50% temperature change. So if the toroid temperature decreases by 2°F, then it would take such a meter 5 minutes to show a 1°F change.
Test your temperature meter to see how long it takes to change by say 80%. You could for instance take the temperature meter outside and time how long it takes to settle down to the new temperature.
Anyhow, I don't know why this run did not last that long. The ambient temperature was 62.8°F, which is colder than the first run shown in the video. Maybe there was not as much dark energy in this room. ;)
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 28, 2009, 03:51:07 PM
I just did another experiment. A new toroid and magnets were used, and the entire experiment was moved to a different location, about 50 feet away in a different room.
After starting the dremel motor the toroid / magnet temperature decreased 2.1°F in ~ a minute, according to the IR gun, and stayed there for only a few minutes where the toroid / magnet temperature then began to slowly increase in a matter of a few minutes.
So the temperature drop was short lived in this experiment, which brings up a possible issue for people who do not have fast reacting temperature meters. For this experiment you need something that reacts in a matter of seconds. What is meant by react is how long it takes the probe / device change by an appreciable percentage. Of course if you place a hot iron on the probe it's going to increase almost instantly, but that's not have fast it reacts by a certain percentage. The hot iron may be 100°F hotter, and it might take only 1 second for the meter to show a 1°F, but it could take 5 minutes to show a 50% temperature change. So if the toroid temperature decreases by 2°F, then it would take such a meter 5 minutes to show a 1°F change.
Test your temperature meter to see how long it takes to change by say 80%. You could for instance take the temperature meter outside and time how long it takes to settle down to the new temperature.
Anyhow, I don't know why this run did not last that long. The ambient temperature was 62.8°F, which is colder than the first run shown in the video. Maybe there was not as much dark energy in this room. ;)
Temperature probes are nice but if you really want to get serious then also use thermal goggles with it. thermal goggles will show you every little heat leakage from every part visually.
Jerry
A FLIR camera would be nice, but they're expensive.
Small 402 SMD thermistors react almost instantly. IR guns react in fast as well, less than a second.
BTW, now I am beginning to lean toward the magnets as being the cold source. This is one area I have not analyzed yet, so we'll see if it's the magnets or toroid. If it's the magnets, then you'll need either an IR gun (thermal gun) or a thermal camera since they're spinning. .. Well, if you quickly stop the machine, then maybe one could come up with a method of quickly placing a small thermistor on a magnet to get its temperature. That's better than nothing.
I just repeated another control experiment. I removed the toroid, and point the IR gun at the magnet, then turned on the dremel motor. The temperature never decreased, and in fact in about 5 seconds time the magnet temperature increased by 0.2°F.
Consider that this could be a case of electrostatic cooling from a charge accumulating on the spinning plastic holding the magnets due to air friction.
The electrostatic charge could also work its way into the speed control circuit and bleed charge off the trigger capacitor causing rpm's to drop.
If the dremel is of the double insulated type, a considerable electrostatic charge could accumulate.
The toroid needs to be "grounded" to the scope or power supply for a source of charge (and some ambient heat) to be ripped from it by the charged rotating plastic.
A control study would be to replace the toroid with something mildly conductive and approximately the same size that would not allow eddy current production from the spinning magnets. A chunk of carbon etc. Now try this with and without ground.
If you have an electrostatic meter handy bring it near the spinning dremel to see if charge is accumulating on the plastic causing the electrostatic cooling effect. This cooling effect is common around high voltage DC power supplies typically the electrostatic type.
I have often felt the cooling effect when playing with small electrostatic power supplies.
Best of Luck...V
Nice theory, but if one does the calculations it would need millions of volts to decrease the temperature of this by 2.5°F. There's just zero chance that this is due to electrostatic cooling. Also I've done numerous control experiments that showed no cooling effect from the spinning magnets.
BTW, not that it matters any, but the toroid is grounded to the scope and dual power supply.
Forgot to mention that according to my meter the highest rpm during todays experiment was 9850 rpm's.
Just judging by ear, I would definitely say that the dremel went to much higher rpms yesterday, so it probably went over 10000 rpms yesterday.
Electrostatic cooling is well documented and does not take "millions of volts"
e.g.
LASER BEAM REFLECTOR SYSTEM
United States Patent 3703813
An electrically conductive laser beam reflector is cooled by a high voltage electrostatic field created between the reflector and a probe spaced from the surface of the reflector on the same side of the reflector as the impinging laser beam. The cooling effect by the electrostatic field is of essentially the same distribution as the heating effect of the laser beam thus eliminating different and varying temperatures gradients in the reflector and the resulting distortions in the beam.
Quote from: Vortex1 on December 28, 2009, 06:03:49 PM
Electrostatic cooling is well documented and does not take "millions of volts"
e.g.
LASER BEAM REFLECTOR SYSTEM
United States Patent 3703813
An electrically conductive laser beam reflector is cooled by a high voltage electrostatic field created between the reflector and a probe spaced from the surface of the reflector on the same side of the reflector as the impinging laser beam. The cooling effect by the electrostatic field is of essentially the same distribution as the heating effect of the laser beam thus eliminating different and varying temperatures gradients in the reflector and the resulting distortions in the beam.
Your source even says "high voltage." I am dealing with low voltage.
Also I never said "electrostatic cooling" requires millions of volts. I said it would require millions of volts to cool my device down by means of electrostatic cooling.
The amount of voltage depends how much mass, the desired temperature drop, and thermal conductivity. In my case the magnets are rotating at ~ 10000 rpms, and thus the effective thermal conductive is very high. There's zero, as in 0.0000000000000 chance this is due to electrostatic cooling.
For the record, I am able to log 1.5 kilovolts as read on my ElectroStatics Model 9000 electrostatic meter held one inch from a piece of plastic tape rotating on my dremel tool. The meter reads that the charge is positive(+).
With the tape removed and a sanding disc the same diameter, there is nothing registered on the meter.
I have repeated this several times. The positive charge is being accumulated on the plastic due to air friction. It dies away when I shut the dremel off.
This is consistent with my guess that electrons are ripped off the toroid insulation causing a very low level surface cooling effect as picked up by the IR Temp meter.
I will do some tests with temperature probes to see if the cooling effect can be induced.
Please excuse my interruption, I'm probably way off base, just reporting what I see.
Kind Regards.....V
1.5KV is far from millions of volts. 1.5KV on an insulator is nothing. Even rubbing against a piece of tape can cause more voltage than that, but such low voltage is not going cool it to any measurable temperature here.
Anyhow, as stated I've performed those experiments already. The rotating magnet without the toroid *heats* up, it does not cool down. It heats up because of air friction.
Agreed, however in my tests with a dual thermometer the electrostatic cooling effect is rapid, however air friction seems to shortly override it causing the frictional heat to prevail with a resulting temperature rise after the initial drop.
I made no claims for the temperature of rotating magnets or stationary toroids. No toroids or magnets in my test....yet.
Just trying to demonstrate an initial temperature drop of a stationary object near a source of rotating positive (+) electrostatic field.
Anyone wishing to get a good idea of what can be done with electrostatic cooling should read the attached patent. Extrapolate the numbers downward and form your own conclusions.
Kind regards.....v
Maybe under the correct conditions where the goal is to achieve good electrostatic cooling one could cool it by a few tens °F, but in my experiment it actually increased by 0.2°F. Humidity probably makes a difference as well. Maybe how much the tape has been handled by hands makes a difference from oil. Regardless, +0.2°F, -0.2°F, either way is far from the 2.5°F that occurred when the toroid was under the magnets. I still don't know for certain what caused it.
When I was playing with an Adams motor one of the claims by Dr. Adams was that the coils indeed cool while the motor runs.
I did measure the temperature of my coils at the time using a probe and a DMM meter. The probe is a physical sensing tool no lasers. My findings did show cooling off of the coils at about 3 to 4 F too.
I tried to eliminate any wind on the setup and I was satisfied with my findings. The coils indeed cool under the correct conditions.
Needless to say that the Adams motor works in a similiar way than the current theories of how the Orbo is working. (Magnets attracted to the core and a pulse nullifies that polarization allowing the motor to continue its spin).
Fausto.
Hi plengo,
You Adam's motor sounds interesting. 3°F to 4°F is a significant temperature drop! Has anyone tried to make one self-run? And where could one find the plans to build one of these Adam motors that you built?
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 28, 2009, 10:20:00 PM
Hi plengo,
You Adam's motor sounds interesting. 3°F to 4°F is a significant temperature drop! Has anyone tried to make one self-run? And where could one find the plans to build one of these Adam motors that you built?
I build a few Adams motor ( or at least I tried ) some 5 years ago. Most of the material I purchased from the official site at (http://www.aethmogen.com/index.shtml) and another member of our forum here has created this great site (http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/).
I will be replicating Orbo using my last Adams setup but with a spin. I think Adams was not only using his coils but also he may have closed the loop, in effect transforming his bifilar coils into a toroid, therefore making more sense today why he claimed overunity with his motors.
Most of the good material is for sale (I am not advocating to purchase it but it has good data) from that official site.
Fausto.
Thanks for the links. Lot of good info. I just came across this at rex research,
http://www.rexresearch.com/adamotor/adamotor.htm (http://www.rexresearch.com/adamotor/adamotor.htm)
Seems close to the eOrbo design.
Not to get away from the eOrbo design, but just wanted to mention a quote from a guy who replicated an Adams motor, "I ran these experiments on the Adams motor many years ago now, however I never forgot those results because the temperature was so obviously cold. I must have hit the right tuning spot with the geometry."
Earlier I did a lot of experiments with no toroid, just the spinning magnets. There are two *measurable* effects here that I can see -->
1. Heating from air friction. The magnets slowly heat up due to air friction.
2. The magnet temperature quickly changes to the ambient temperature.
Ambient temperature is almost always changing due to the outdoor temperature, the Sun, wind, appliances, etc. There's only a short moments that occur twice per day when the outside temperature (over all) does not change, and those are the peak and lowest temperature of the day. Everything in the room has different thermal conductivity, including the dremel motor. More importantly, if the dremel has been running in the past 30 or so minutes it can be a few tens °F above ambient. So, when the dremel is first turned on, it will quickly drop to ambient temperature, but eventually will begin to heat up. Constant temperature fluctuations & gradients of objects in a room of a few tenths is common. Anyone who has an IR gun or temperature probe will see that.
So those are the two measurable effects I see. No doubt there's some electrostatic cooling, but it seems that is so small it's unmeasurable in this case. If my dremel motor & magnets are at the same temperature (less than 0.1°F) as ambient temperature, then the magnet temperature does not drop, it increases. If the dremel has been used in the last 30 or so minutes, it & the magnets can be a few tenths °F above ambient, in which case the magnets will quickly drop in temperature by a few tenths °F, and then begin to slowly increase, reaching ambient, and go above ambient.
Although, the above is nothing new & unexpected. Obviously #1 above, heating from air friction, was occurred in my video, which would only increase the toroid / magnet temperature, but in the full uncut video I use the IR gun to show the ambient temperature at various spots such as the wooden desk, and the ambient temperature was 67.2°F to 67.8°F. Yet the toroid / magnet temperature dropped to 64.6°F! IMO this seems to be due to an unknown magnetic effect. This effect has been noted in other very similar magnetic machines such as the Adams motor, and is definitely worth investigating!
find in internet:
http://www.moletrap.co.uk/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=546&page=1
and a theory:
""energy gain from magnetic viscosity:
You need to bring the magnets together in "attraction" (no effort required to achieve this and you can actually gain and store some energy on the way in)
Wait long enough to allow the attractive field to maximize (pause is required in order to align the domains as fully as possible)
Then flip into repulsion to separate the magnets very quickly (energy required to flip into repulsion but less than that required to exit while in attraction. Use some of the kinetic energy you stored on the way in.). If the magnets are separated quickly enough, the domains will not be fully relaxed. They will continue to do so after the separation. So there will be a field of diminishing strength which can be used for a brief period of time.""
related to magnetic viscosity
http://www.bitzracing.com/steorn/
http://gigagauss.com/Home.html
My IR gun is pretty narrow as it is, 12°. You can think of it as a 1 pixel thermal camera. ;-)
Here are further details after further analyzing my video. It is now clear that the IR gun was not pointing at the toroid. Rather, it was pointing at the magnets. The temperature of the magnets dropped 2.9°F down to 64.6°F.
So it appears all of my attempts to replicate my video were wrong since such replications were pointing the IR gun at the toroid. Hopefully today I can find out more from further experiments.
The part of half of yesterday was spent on replicating my video again. This time the IR gun was pointed at the magnets, but it showed 0.°F cooling, which is too close for comfort to say it was cooling.
Just as seen in my full video, I pointed the IR gun at the various locations to get measurements of the ambient temperature. Everything was pretty much the same as the video, except the magnets did not cool 2.9°F.
The next step is to let the magnets and all rest for two weeks and try it again.
The other half of the day was spent on making my interpretation of the Steorn eOrbo replication. That should be up and spinning today.
Oh I forgot to mention that the AC voltage on half of the toroid winding doubles when the other half is shorted. This may not mean much, as it could be due to capacitance.
Quote from: PaulLowrance on December 31, 2009, 10:49:53 AM
Oh I forgot to mention that the AC voltage on half of the toroid winding doubles when the other half is shorted. This may not mean much, as it could be due to capacitance.
I think this IS VERY IMPORTANT!
Fausto.
IMO Steorn cop>1 claim is legit, and since Steorn claims to have done calorimeter test, the only thing that makes sense is that the cooling effect is not energy coming from ambient thermal energy, but might only be a side effect of whatever is happening. That's assuming Steorn is able to get cop>1 on demand anytime. All I know is that I cannot explain what occurred in the full video where the core cooled 2.9°F.
Who knows, maybe the energy comes from the quantum foam (ZPE), and maybe this has an initial cooling effect. :-\
Cooling effect hmmmm. Heat appears to be randomized dispersion of mass velociity. A cooling suggests a more ordered state of mass velocity. I dare say within the core of the Sun there isnt alot of randomized movement at all. Very cold. Imagine if you have the ability a single particle which does not refract reflect or scatter in anyway photons but incorporates them into its intrinsic oscillations. Not fusion or fission those are byproducts of the little monopole the Sun's got going.
About 4 days ago I was able to reproducing the cooling effect in magnets, except this time an entirely different method was used. The recent setup consisted of taking a ferrite rod with coil placed over a NdFeB magnets, and then shorting the coil across a 40000uF 50V capacitor such that it caused the ferrite rod to repel the NdFeB. Between the NdFeB and ferrite rod was an insulator. The temperature was measured with a tiny 402 SMD thermistor.
In this recent setup there was no spinning or moving magnets, yet the magnets rapidly cooled by 1.6°F. This recent setup used another batch of fresh NdFeB magnets. As what happened during the first setup, this effect faded with usage so that now these magnets show no cooling effect. Actually, they heat up a little bit during the experiments now.
To recap, the 1st setup showed a cooling of 3°F. The 2d setup showed cooling of 1.6°F.
I think this cooling effect explains the Steorn cop>1 / excess energy claim. In early 2009 I documented very simple methods of detecting long term magnetic viscosity effects where a magnet could be demagnetized by a slight amount or even strengthened a bit, and when left alone the magnet would slowly recover, on the order of hours to weeks, depending on the magnet and how much it was changed. This occurs in all magnetic materials, but is easily seen in permanent magnets. So I believe the cooling effect was due to noticeable demagnetization of the NdFeB magnets, which will causes a cooling effect due to MCE (magnetocaloric effect). My early 2009 experiments showed that the magnet slow recovers, so that's why it would be excess energy / cop>1.
Now what I was measuring was significant temperature drops, ~ 3°F, which is a good amount of energy relative to what Steorn is showing, especially when we consider that the magnets were spinning at ~ 10000 rpm. So IMO Steorn is taking advantage of short term magnetic viscosity, on the order of milli to 100's micro seconds, and of course magnets recover just as fast for short term magnetic viscosity.
In the Steorn device the magnets would cool by such small amounts that it's probably not measurable.
Anyhow, that's at least the theory. We'll have to see if it's true.
Has anyone built equipment capable of re-magnetizing NdFeB magnets? I'm about to build the following with what I have here. According to FEMM & LTspice, I should get a magnetic field of ~ 36000 Gauss. That assumes my capacitors are in good condition, and have a comparable ESR to similar capacitors sold at digikey.com.
The NdFeB are 2" long, 1" diameter. Also there will be a long steel rod connected to one side of the NdFeB magnet to help increase the field. The coil is 0.5" wide, 0.5", 0.55" ID, deep, 1.05" OD. Coil inductance according to FEMM is 155uH, if square wire is used. The coil will be shorted to 4 * 1500uF 250 volt capacitors for a total of 6000uF. That should bring the peak current up to 1085 amps for a brief moment. The only problem is the current needs to halted after 3ms, otherwise the current flips due to oscillations due to capacitance & inductance.
Anyway, maybe my caps are junk. They're very old, so we'll see how much current it really peaks to.