I'm not a specialist in magnets and in magnetic fields (I no even bought my first neodymium magnet yet). So I will ask for the help of the specialists in magnetic fields here:
In a long magnet, the center has less attraction force?
From the drawings I had saw in my life, I imagine that the magnetic field lines in a long magnet (cylinder or bar) are more or less how in the drawing I posted bellow.
Is it right? And if it's right, is the attraction force less powerful at the center of the long magnet? Could a steel ball escape from the magnet by going perpendicular to the center of the long magnet?
Judging by my question, I think you can imagine that my idea is that in the drawing bellow:
Where are the specialists when we need them? ;D
The little ball can escape the magnet going perpendicular to the center?
@rapadura
Yes, the magnetic field lines have a neutral area near the middle.
Sensitive detection of magnetic neutrality is how the Gray pure
magnetic motor supposedly operated. As magnets discharge slighly
from their strength from when they are new, the position of
this field neultrality is going to change slightly.
I realise that your diagram is only an approximation but...
The problem is when then ball closely approaches the pole of
the magnet there is an area of "control instabilty" due to the
1/(R^2) attractive nature of the magnetic field, plus the
lentz law braking force developed in the ball's material slows it
down. The ball is not normally intelligent - that is it doesn't
normally have a control processor to steer it away from the
ever stronger magnetic pole... So it becomes difficult to
guarentee the objects trajectory in engineering terms.
As it becomes difficult to control the trajectory of an object nearing
the magnetic maximum, it's also very difficult of get all the energy
out of a very close magnetic approach because of the speed with
which it happens. It goes exponential for a while and it is changing
very rapidly.
I have an idea if one would use a mechanical onboard flywheel to slow
the object down during approach one could save the energy normally
lost to lenz interaction, one could then change the equation of
energy storage which normally involves the forward and rotational
momentum of the steel mass of a ball. I think experimenters are
often stuck with these two types of energy storage equations that
don't let overunity interactions happen then claim the task is
impossible because they didn't think outside the box.
:S:MarkSCoffman
I have seen many videos on Youtube of steel balls passing the magnet a little, and then being pulled back. It happens because of the omnidirectional nature of magnetic attraction.
But, if the ball was inside a closed tube, and this closed tube was curved, in such a way that it goes perpendicular to the middle of a long magnet, after passing by the first pole? Couldn't we build a system of ramps where the ball can escape from the magnet in a angle less inclined than the angle of the ascension phase?
I'll be radical here. Who here has seen the classic idea of creating a perpetual motion machine using "gravitational shielding" under half a wheel? It's a classic perpetual motion idea, but it will never work because there's no such thing as "gravitational shielding".
Well, I had imagined an adaptation of that idea, but instead of abolishing gravity under half of the wheel, what about don't having magnetic attraction (or having weaker magnetic attraction) above half the wheel?
So, could this four ball wheel showed bellow spin perpetually?
I know my ideas are strange, but could someone comment about it please? You can call me a moron, but please, show me why my idea is stupid! I need to know!
Come on! Why can't someone tell me if it is possible or not possible to harness the fact that the magnetic attraction force of a long magnet on a steel ball is not equal in all parts of the long magnet?
Or is it not true that the magnetic attraction force of a long magnet on a steel ball is not equal in all parts of the long magnet?
energy = moving force
pull of ball to N = positive energy ( when ball moving )
to pull ball away from N ..use energy = negative
so positive energy and negative energy will equal =zero
the energy the ball gains going into the N field will be needed to escape it with no gain.
Quote from: Lilhawk on April 09, 2010, 10:22:49 PM
to pull ball away from N ..use energy = negative
I understand your point, but I have seen many videos on Youtube of steel balls passing the whole magnet a little, and then being pulled back. My guess is that the ball is being pulled back by S, not by N.
So, couldn't we deviate the path of the ball, after passing N, before reaching S, in the neutral area at the middle, with weaker magnetic field?
Quote from: Rapadura on April 10, 2010, 10:26:25 AM
I understand your point, but I have seen many videos on Youtube of steel balls passing the whole magnet a little, and then being pulled back. My guess is that the ball is being pulled back by S, not by N.
So, couldn't we deviate the path of the ball, after passing N, before reaching S, in the neutral area at the middle, with weaker magnetic field?
It's still the equivalent of trying to harness momentum to push a stator over a circular v-smot wheel's gate. The energy just isn't there to self sustain bro.
@Rapadura
The answer your looking for is that the magnet is a polar device having two poles but each pole is distinct. The metal ball is not attracted to the magnet it is attracted to the magnetic poles, the ball is attracted to the north pole and is attracted back to it as it tries to leave the north pole to the magnet center. The poles are the centers of force(polar regions) and the magnet center(the Bloch wall) is an impolar region having no polarity as is seperates the two polarities. We could think of the bloch wall as a mirror, the north pole is a reflection of the south pole and vice-versa, but a mirror does not produce force it simply produces a reflection of it. If you place your ball at the bloch wall or center of the magnet it will be attracted to either pole with the same force as when the ball was approaching the magnet itself.
Regards
AC
allcanadian, thanks for your explanation.
So, the magnetic attraction force of an individual pole (let we say N) is the same in all directions, including in the direction of the Bloch wall (center of the magnet)?
Quote from: Rapadura on April 07, 2010, 09:51:17 PM
I'm not a specialist in magnets and in magnetic fields (I no even bought my first neodymium magnet yet). So I will ask for the help of the specialists in magnetic fields here:
In a long magnet, the center has less attraction force?
From the drawings I had saw in my life, I imagine that the magnetic field lines in a long magnet (cylinder or bar) are more or less how in the drawing I posted bellow.
Is it right? And if it's right, is the attraction force less powerful at the center of the long magnet? Could a steel ball escape from the magnet by going perpendicular to the center of the long magnet?
You wil find an "neutral Zone"
even between the poles from an hors-shoe-magnet- In the center of the flux.
(in air-agat - even in the center of the soft iron)
GP
@Rapadura
QuoteSo, the magnetic attraction force of an individual pole (let we say N) is the same in all directions, including in the direction of the Bloch wall (center of the magnet)?
Correct, the magnetic pole is where you will find the greatest polar density which will create the greatest force on a metal ball. The magnetic pole (N) will create a magnetic pole (S) in the side of the metal ball facing it, thus they attract and inbetween the magnet (N) pole and the ball (S) pole yet another bloch wall will appear which is impolar(having no polarity). The permanent magnet has turned the metal ball into a magnet itself and this is why they appear to attract. Natural law states that any force will create an equal and opposite force and between these two forces will be a region of no force as it must seperate the two. This is called the "Trinity of Unity", one force divided must always produce three, two polar regions seperated by an impolar region dividing the two.
It is also said that opposites attract, if the (N) and (S) poles were attracted to each other then why are they not in the center of the magnet? If we consider that polarity is a stressed condition then we know that when stress is relieved it does not neutralize itself it simply ceases to exist. Thus the opposing polar stress (N-S) created in the magnet finds balance externally by voiding it's condition of polarity at the bloch wall. The (N) pole does not flow to the (S) pole, the poles destroy each other at the bloch wall, in nature opposites do not attract they destroy each other to find balance. We can show this voidance mathmatically by the simple equation (-1) + (+1)= 0 or the creation of polarity as 0= (+1) + (-1). The illusion here is that when we sprinkle iron filings around a magnet and see uniform field lines between the (N) and (S) poles we instinctively make an incorrect assumption when in fact the iron filings have simply turned into tiny magnets themselves and aligned with the field but there is always that persistent line which must seperate the poles. This rule also applies to Gravity and Electricity as they are polar forces, I wonder where all the supposed electricity in a battery goes? It would seem that the motion produced when two polar forces race to each other to destroy each other to find balance is what we consider work, Work=Force x Distance. In general the forces in nature are simple but the effects give the illusion of complexity, for some reason we are attracted to complexity and making everything harder than it need to be, that is our nature
Regards
AC
Quote from: allcanadian on April 11, 2010, 01:58:51 PM
This rule also applies to Gravity and Electricity as they are polar forces, I wonder where all the supposed electricity in a battery goes? It would seem that the motion produced when two polar forces race to each other to destroy each other to find balance is what we consider work, Work=Force x Distance.
Regards
AC
A battery is but a chemical reaction with an electrical barrier put in place.
When the external circuit is connected the electrons are allowed to flow
around the barrier and the chemical reaction then proceeds. The problem
(if there is one) is that the chemical reaction uses up it's chemical
potential energy as the electrons move. The electrons all come back
to the chemical reaction site to be incorporated into reaction residuals.
:S:MarkCoffman
I don't want to muck up this so if it makes you think then ignore it.
All is standard to what is taught today. I want you to be aware of what was taught in the time of Maxwell. It seems that science died with him.
At that time it was taught magnetic flux flowed both ways through the magnet. I'm not saying it should be applied here. It's just in the back of my mind that they cut something out just like they chopped up Maxwell's equations. Like I said, don't get side tracked. I don't think the experts even grasp the actual inter workings of a magnet. Tesla said, one wire can carry multiple signals both directions and they want you to forget that was ever said too. I thing that is possible because of the flux line around the conductor.
The eddy currents magnetizing the ball may defeat your purpose, I think I know what you are up to. Might be an excellent thought till that happens. Maybe there is a simple way around that.
Magnetics is weird to me, you can't magnetize a copper chrome plated pinball, but I have seen it happen and the service man had to replace the ball. Is there an expert? Is anyone actually studying magnets or are they all parroting the books like there is nothing left to learn? Why is the decay rate in a load stone incalculably long and a perma-magnet so short. Science hasn't even bothered to figure out how to make long life magnets. If you are waiting for an expert, I wish you luck. I hope you or someone else in here becomes an expert.
Sorry I was completely overwhelmed by your post, I came back to explain. When I was way younger we found a particularly strong epoxy. We were going to make Searl generator and fly to the moon. The epoxy didn't work but, we noticed something. You take two bar magnets and stick them together you get a longer bar magnet so to speak. The flux density at the mated ends are now hooked up internally. So we worked and we worked to try to exploit this fact to find some sort of configuration of material to draw energy from between these two magnets. We read everything we could find about magnets. We even read the confusing stuff like Edward Leedskalnin ( hope I spelled that right) the guy that built and moved Coral Castle. What I am trying to tell you is if there are people that know the answer to what you are asking they are being paid to keep their mouth shut. I recommend you ask in the Searl area on this site. No other group has fought with magnetism harder than them. Leedskalnin had a perpetual storage device and we read that material thousands of times and felt it had something to do with what we were doing. His device works by the way and you might even find a video on it. Be worth a try, just because we didn't fly with what he said doesn't mean you won't. Good luck.
If the steel ball is attracted to the pole, it would probably still be attracted to the pole even if the ball was in the middle of the magnet. That means the steel ball want to travel both ways equally - that means it will not work.
Vidar
The middle of the magnet is "neutral" - true. Potentially you should be able to build OU device using this fact. There even are a couple of them - for example this one:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6759.0
Eventually, I've even designed a solid state version of it. Tested in FEMM. Should work no problem. The problem is the cost, which I cannot efford right now - working on different project. If I fail, this one will be next. Hope my wife will understand :P
So yes, this can be a way to go - but not in the generator version you have proposed. In your version, the first ball would have been attracted to the magnet and that's it. The device would stop.
Quote from: Airstriker on April 14, 2010, 08:07:35 AM
Eventually, I've even designed a solid state version of it. Tested in FEMM. Should work no problem. The problem is the cost, which I cannot efford right now - working on different project. If I fail, this one will be next. Hope my wife will understand :P
Why don't you contribute to this site and post your solid state design along with the FEMM files? What is this other project you're working on that you're not sharing either? Where are the threads for your projects?
Please start contributing to this site, instead of being a nuisance and dishing everyone else's ideas. Oh, I forgot, you are trolling this forum and I shouldn't expect anymore from you, my bad.
GB
What's your problem GB ? Why are you starting fight with me on every single thread I write something ? Who said I need to share my projects here ? If I decide to, I will do that and that's none of your business. So piss off.
Quote from: Airstriker on April 16, 2010, 04:40:49 AM
What's your problem GB ? Why are you starting fight with me on every single thread I write something ? Who said I need to share my projects here ? If I decide to, I will do that and that's none of your business. So piss off.
I'll make a deal with you. You ignore my posts, and I will ignore your posts. Deal? Otherwise, I'm not going to piss off because I've had enough B.S. from you.
GB
Quote from: Low-Q on April 13, 2010, 03:18:33 PM
If the steel ball is attracted to the pole, it would probably still be attracted to the pole even if the ball was in the middle of the magnet. That means the steel ball want to travel both ways equally - that means it will not work.
I think that maybe the resultant force of the ball being attracted both ways equally (N and S) could be a vector in the direction of the exact middle of the magnet, what means that the ball can
not go away from the magnet through a path perpendicular to the exact center of the magnet, because it will be attracted back, not in the direction of N or S, but in the direction of the middle.