It has started in the other thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=9163.0
But the lack of response in that thread is forcing me to create this new one.
I had created a simulation using PHUN software of a perpetuum mobile that works! Do you understand me?
PHUN is a educational 2D physics simulation software, worldwide known, that received a lot of awards. You can download PHUN here:
http://www.phunland.com/wiki/Download
Well, using PHUN i just created a "leveraged pendulum", that is a kind of "lever" with a stell ball in one of its ends, and this "leveraged pendulum" is a perpetuum mobile. The pendulum simply goes higher at each swing.
I created two versions of the perpetuum mobile, and here are the two YouTube videos of the two simulations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyKRF6SH3eU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEGAqvYzrUM
And I'm posting bellow the .PHZ files that you can run for yourselfs using PHUN on your computers.
Because the size of the files are greater than 300 kb (the maximum file size to upload here at Overunity.com) I had to split the files using WinRar. You can download the two parts and mount the final .PHZ file using WinRar.
The first version (of the first YouTube video) is the file "Leveraged pendulum.phz", that was split by WinRar in the files: "Leveraged pendulum.part1.rar" and "Leveraged pendulum.part2.rar"
The second version of the pendulum (of the second video) is the file "Perpetuum_mobile.phz" that was split in two by WinRar in the files: "Perpetuum_mobile.part1.rar" and "Perpetuum_mobile.part2.rar"
Just to clarify: PHUN simulations don't have WIND. The clouds in the background are just to indicate the simulation speed, that can be regulated by the user. There is air friction in the simulations, but there's no wind.
For those who don't want to download the .RAR files, I had published the .PHZ files on DriveHQ.
You can do the direct download of the .PHZ files at this links:
http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/shareID7123548/fileID517573613/Leveraged_pendulum_v1.phz
(First version)
http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/shareID7123569/fileID517574559/Perpetuum_mobile.phz
(Second version)
There's no excuse to say that "the simulation is fake" or "the YouTube videos are fake": just download the .PHZ files and run on your own computer, using PHUN.
If someone here is thinking that I will let this thread "die"... Forget it! I won't...
A working "perpetual motion" simulation in an award winning software won't be ignored. No way.
Quote from: Rapadura on May 11, 2010, 09:45:37 PM
If someone here is thinking that I will let this thread "die"... Forget it! I won't...
A working "perpetual motion" simulation in an award winning software won't be ignored. No way.
Rapadura
Looking at your youtube videos looked like you have a wind due to the clouds moving from the left to right. I have done what you are showing to look at effects. In a wind it will rock back and forth, and could spin it. But without it, it will stop. With a simple box fan I can get allot of designs to spin, but they are not runners. Simulations are great for an idea but after seeing several simulations running, I have to see a real test for they quite often are different.
Alan
Quote from: AB Hammer on May 11, 2010, 10:15:19 PM
Rapadura
Looking at your youtube videos looked like you have a wind due to the clouds moving from the left to right. I have done what you are showing to look at effects. In a wind it will rock back and forth, and could spin it. But without it, it will stop. With a simple box fan I can get allot of designs to spin, but they are not runners. Simulations are great for an idea but after seeing several simulations running, I have to see a real test for they quite often are different.
Alan
NO!!!! Please don't "look to my YouTube videos"!!! Just download PHUN and run the simulation for yourself!!
If you were a PHUN user you should know that PHUN simulations don't have WIND! Wind plays no role in the simulatios!
The clouds in the background, as I explained above, are just to show the "simulation speed", because the user can accelerate the simulation speed until 10x (what means that 1 second is the equivalent to 10 seconds).
There's air friction, but there's no wind!
Why is everyone afraid of running the simulation?
It looks easy enough to build.
If I were you I would make a working version, it's the only way you're going to get peoples' attention unfortunately.
@Tenbatsu: I won't try a real world build until someone confirms my simulation works! Please, do it!
It won't cost you nothing, it's free, and won't take more than 15 minutes!
Somebody help me!!!!
Okay, nobody wants to test the simulations, but I still making new simulations.
This is the video of my latest simulation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riupxCOGDYk
This time I used a longer lever (with lower density), and the result is that the pendulum goes higher and higher much faster, and when it starts to spin, the maximum rotational speed it achieves is much higher.
It can be a bug... But it can be the effect of the lever over the pendulum...
Rapadura
Here is a desk toy from Iron Man 2 that you should look at. It has some similarities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7N59Ma98UM
Quote from: AB Hammer on May 12, 2010, 06:13:32 PM
Rapadura
Here is a desk toy from Iron Man 2 that you should look at. It has some similarities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7N59Ma98UM
It has some similarities, but in my simulation the weight (the ball) don't have to move.
In my simulation, the upper arm of the "lever" is much longer than the lower arm (where the ball is attached). However, the upper arm is lighter. The lower arm (with the steel ball) being heavier, makes it goes down when it is released from any angle between 45 and 85 degress. It means the shorter arm goes down when the pendulum is released, not the longer arm (because despite being longer, it is lighter).
When the ball reaches the other side, before stopping and being pulled down by gravity, I think the lever is somehow making it go a little more high... Going higher at each swing, the pendulum never stops. In the version without horizontal support, it eventually makes a complete turn, and starts to spin.
It can be a bug, but it can be a real effect.
It is a big SHAME that nobody here is interested, and nobody downloaded the file to run the simulation in its own computer, to confirm the results.
Cool! DriveHQ is boycotting my .PHZ files!!
When I try to download the .PHZ files I stored in DriveHQ, I get the message:
"The specified file doesn't exist."
I logged on in DriveHQ and the files still are there. It is boycott. Someone is concerned with my simulations, and nobody here gives a shit!!
---- EDIT: Now the downloads are available again. Don't know if it was boycott or just a temporary problem with the server ----
It seems interesting, so if it does actually work in reality which i couldn't really imagine but if so then i suppose like you say, one explanation may be as follows... The long end of the lever is "stronger" but the short end of the lever from which the weight hangs is heavier which in a way does seem a possibility... You could shorten the long end of the lever by so much and attach a lighter weight, light enough so the large weight being closer to the pivot can still lift the light weight up, weather this would have the same effects i don't know...
So in theory (if it does work) it could be that when the large weight is dropped from a stand still at 45 degrees, it swings down and then up at the other side, but when it reaches that 45 degree angle on the other side of the pivot, its gained some momentum with the help of the long light lever therefore slightly getting higher on each swing. The reason it can get higher on the other side is because, the large weight was dropped from a stand still from 45 degrees but when it reaches the other side, its in movement so the long and lighter side gives it that extra push. In a sence, that extra push from the longer side is greater when its moving that when its still so each swing gains some energy...
Pure Speculation, that's if it works...
Alex
Quote from: Alexioco on May 13, 2010, 03:23:29 PM
It seems interesting, so if it does actually work in reality which i couldn't really imagine but if so then i suppose like you say, one explanation may be as follows... The long end of the lever is "stronger" but the short end of the lever from which the weight hangs is heavier which in a way does seem a possibility... You could shorten the long end of the lever by so much and attach a lighter weight, light enough so the large weight being closer to the pivot can still lift the light weight up, weather this would have the same effects i don't know...
So in theory (if it does work) it could be that when the large weight is dropped from a stand still at 45 degrees, it swings down and then up at the other side, but when it reaches that 45 degree angle on the other side of the pivot, its gained some momentum with the help of the long light lever therefore slightly getting higher on each swing. The reason it can get higher on the other side is because, the large weight was dropped from a stand still from 45 degrees but when it reaches the other side, its in movement so the long and lighter side gives it that extra push. In a sence, that extra push from the longer side is greater when its moving that when its still so each swing gains some energy...
Pure Speculation, that's if it works...
Alex
@Alex:
Thanks, many many thanks for your response!!! Finally someone got what I'm trying to say!
I think what is happening is EXACTLY what you described. Exactly that: the lever somehow makes the ball goes "a little higher" than it should go at each swing. I can't imagine what is the "misterious" force that is being applied at the other side of the lever, in order to lift the ball this "little more". Maybe centripetal force? I don't know...
I know it can be a bug of PHUN, but the laws of dynamics are all regularly applied at PHUN simulations... That's why I think it has a chance of work in the real world...
Funny simulation somehow... I wonder if one could create the wind also oneself with the help of small fan that is connected via some mechanisms with the pendulum rotation and which blows a little bit. I remember the topic "driving faster than the wind"(or somehow like that...)... which also seemed to be overunity... so maybe one could apply the principle on this pendulum as well ?
Simulations are doomed to succeed.
Build it and know for sure.
I made it and it didn't work, the process just slowed down, I made an off balance lever like in your simulation, put a heavy weight on the short end, (it wasn't to heavy), just heavy enough to just about lift the long end right to the top, i then put the heavy weight at 45 degrees, let it go and the pendulum did swing but it soon came to a stop... I tried placing the weight at different degrees on the short end of the seesaw to see what results i got, but all experiments came to a stop!
Alex
Did you also activate some kind of hair dryer in some distance (1-2m) to simulate a slow wind as shown in the video clips?
Lmao no, i have a slightly different idea, the idea is simple really... The large weight starts at the 12 o clock position, it drops (lifting the long end up), when the large weight gets to the 6 o-clock position (gained its full speed), it shoots past a paper fan, causing a draft which blows the paper fan, and as a result (being a paper fan) the paper fan blows back onto the lever giving it just enough froce to lift the large weight back to the top and hey, it repeats the cycle LOL.
Good Day
Alex
@Rapadura,
I've built your setup with Lego's, great tool for rapid prototyping. After messing with the wheels as weights and moving the center point around I came up with what is in the picture. It does spin around a couple times with a push but friction kills it quick. It does seem if you could assist the long arm on the way down you could keep it going as it works as a lever to pull the large weight up. I also confirm, as Alexioco, that I could not get it to go without external force.
I also attached another picture of my failed attempt at my oscillating ramp idea from awhile back. Instead of springs it is magnetically levitated at the ends of the seesaw. It goes about 6 oscillations with a steel ball and 4 with a marble. Never could get it to work it's just another project that litters my table.
I guess you have to assume nothing works until you build it and have solid readings from it, it is fun to try though. Keep coming up with the ideas. I build a lot of stuff even though I may not show it on the net.
Alexioco and DreamThinkBuild: many thanks for testing this in the real world!!!!!!!
So... It is probably a bug of PHUN algoritm... It's a pity...
Or... well... a optimist may argue that it only can work with the same densities of the steel ball and the wooden lever of the simulation... And with a very low friction hinge like that of the simulation... But it is not the more probable hypothesis. The more probable is that it's just a bug of the algoritm...
Anyway, thank you guys very much!!!
Hi
Variable leverage can be the very basic idea of PM (perpetuum mobile idea...prime mover...call it as you like).
AB Hammer's pointed out a very simple and interesting "two sticks game" ,that are swinging erratically,not regular ( http://youtube.com/watch?v=m7N59Ma98UM ).
If we impose,establish a limited spin (180 degrees...a kind of "knee joint") for the small stick,we can organize a pulsatory,but regular continuous rotation...
The only problem is to "thinK" as big as necessary (see "H/h puzzle" topic...),and more important ,to enter directly into reality ...
All the best! / Alex