Hi All, playing with some thoughts..
Trying to harness centrifugal forces i came up with this..
It's just a schematic impression, but i think the idea is clear.
Due to the water is able to flow back into the reservoir, and the water will be sucked up automatically , the device could be interesting once the (heavy) flywheel is up to speed.
I just made a few possibilities, as a concept..
any thoughts?
C'man
I'll have a double schauburger to go, with everything on it.
And a side of fries.
8)
TS
Want a drink to? I have a nice vortex-shake ;D
WOW !, this is so weird. I had an idea similar to yours a few years back, except my idea had a belt with buckets instead of water wheels.
My idea was sort of a funnel shape, but still the same idea.
Are you going to build CherryMan ?. It would be cool to find out if the idea works.
Keep up the good work ;)
I've got a feeling that this could be very efficient.
A centrifugal siphon! What a great idea :)
I have never been thinking of that before. The only thing I have concerns about are the direction of the water that will probably work as a gyroscope that will break down the rotation of the tube. Maybe not. The forces should maybe be enough to raise water quite high without using other energy than sustaining the rotation?
This must be tested. Great idea that gives lots of hope. Thanks for sharing :)
Cherryman and all
If you like this. Here is a simple test that I have already done with similar thoughts and effects but a different design. Take a bucket with a hole funneled in the bottom with a hose that goes out the bottom and up the side to the edge of the bucket to try to flow back in. Then tie a rope to the handle of the bucket and fill with water and spin it around as hard as you can. The water will stay in the bucket but little water if any will come out of the hose. This is a test you should do before trying this design in a build. I chose to go no further on mine.
But I find allot of good thought to come up with the design.
Alan
Quote from: AB Hammer on July 20, 2010, 09:12:15 PM
Cherryman and all
If you like this. Here is a simple test that I have already done with similar thoughts and effects but a different design. Take a bucket with a hole funneled in the bottom with a hose that goes out the bottom and up the side to the edge of the bucket to try to flow back in. Then tie a rope to the handle of the bucket and fill with water and spin it around as hard as you can. The water will stay in the bucket but little water if any will come out of the hose. This is a test you should do before trying this design in a build. I chose to go no further on mine.
But I find allot of good thought to come up with the design.
Alan
Hello AB, I think the test you describe is not the same. With the test you describe the water in the hose has to fight the
rotational force to go back in the bucket. So actually you exchange gravity for rotational force. Therefore creating an equal, that will not work or very slow.
If you want to apply your test on the device above then you simply make a hole in the bucket and swing it around and watch the speed in which the water
leaves the hole in the bucket. The hose back is not necessary.
I am thinking about something like this:
A turbine are combined with the water intake. It will require energy to start this thing as we are lifting water upwards in the beginning. When the hose are all filled up, the centrifugal forces will suck in water through the turbine. The turbine will then be powered by the centrifugal forces in the water. Either, this thing will not work at all, or we will loose controll of the RPM... Maybe be limited by loss in air resistance and bearings. I have a feeling this will work because I do not know exactly what parameters which will prevent this to be a selfrunner....
Vidar
Very similar design:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4348-water-turbine-project.html
I suggest you read some of Viktor Schaubergers book, you'll find all the information you need in them.
Quote from: broli on July 21, 2010, 07:49:15 AM
Very similar design:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4348-water-turbine-project.html
I suggest you read some of Viktor Schaubergers book, you'll find all the information you need in them.
Some of the last designs looks similar, but I don't understand that the nozzles will act as jets. The water velocity will go down in the tube, so the nozzle velocity will probably not provide enough power to turn the wheel alone. I think that a turbine placed in a "dead" area, like in the water intake, would be a better approach - and just let the water have as free float as possible instead of resist it with nozzles.
As a start it should be possible to use a regular plastic fan you'll find in most computers, or in RC-flight applications. Fix this inside a plastic tube at the water intake, and let the water flow freely through it, and then split this tube outwards to create the centrifugal force.
Vidar
Quote from: Low-Q on July 20, 2010, 05:52:41 PM
The only thing I have concerns about are the direction of the water that will probably work as a gyroscope that will break down the rotation of the tube. Maybe not. The forces should maybe be enough to raise water quite high without using other energy than sustaining the rotation?
Well, I quote myself here, but I have thought more about the issue above. How could fire fighters move the water hose from side to side if the massive flow of water was preventing it to do so? I assume I can let that concern go. So then there are in theory no force needed to rotate the hose and lift the water upwards, but the water can do work when it falls down, or do as it was supposed to do: Use the high speed water flow in a centrifugal waterwheel to run a couple of generators.
The limit however are 9.82m, but with loads of water we have a power plant for free :)
Gravity has been defeated - finally ;D
Vidar
I wonder if this centrifugal idea can be transferred to a magnetic based system - a permanent magnet motor that works only with a portion centrifugal force, maybe to overcome sticky spots and so on?
Vidar
`Low-q.
If you take an rotating sprinkler, those simple things that rotate due to the water flow
and you enlenghten the outflow tubes, preferably also with a larger diameter
You could test the "self running" easy by putting the inflow with a hose in a bucket
then spinning the thing up and see what happens.
Yes. Imagine me in the bathtub screaming 'yeeeeehaaaa!' and swing that hose like a lasso:) I hope my wife don't mind cleaning up after me:)
Quote from: Low-Q on July 22, 2010, 12:51:55 PM
Yes. Imagine me in the bathtub screaming 'yeeeeehaaaa!' and swing that hose like a lasso:) I hope my wife don't mind cleaning up after me:)
LOL ;D
I was thinking of creating extra mass by enlarging only the horizontal water mass, inflow and outflow smaller.
Think of it as a bottle in between. This extra mass want to escape the rotating force.. Only way out > trough the turbines.
One good thing is that eventually load is not "taken" from the driving engine.
Ass the mass of the rotating wheel, including (flowing) water inside the pipes and bottles is always the same. So, once revd up, the wheel is only to be kept moving by a little force.
I thinking of using reversed water-pumps as generators.
Quote from: Cherryman on July 29, 2010, 05:55:28 AM
I was thinking of creating extra mass by enlarging only the horizontal water mass, inflow and outflow smaller.
Think of it as a bottle in between. This extra mass want to escape the rotating force.. Only way out > trough the turbines.
One good thing is that eventually load is not "taken" from the driving engine.
Ass the mass of the rotating wheel, including (flowing) water inside the pipes and bottles is always the same. So, once revd up, the wheel is only to be kept moving by a little force.
I thinking of using reversed water-pumps as generators.
your whole unit is a pump. as water moves through from inner intake to outer outlet it moves faster and and faster as it reaches the rim of your spinning flywheel. yes it will need a lot of energy to accelerate the water. the total mass will not change but the mass in the pipe is constantly replaced.
Quote from: Cherryman on July 29, 2010, 05:55:28 AM
I was thinking of creating extra mass by enlarging only the horizontal water mass, inflow and outflow smaller.
Think of it as a bottle in between. This extra mass want to escape the rotating force.. Only way out > trough the turbines.
One good thing is that eventually load is not "taken" from the driving engine.
Ass the mass of the rotating wheel, including (flowing) water inside the pipes and bottles is always the same. So, once revd up, the wheel is only to be kept moving by a little force.
I thinking of using reversed water-pumps as generators.
The extra mass you've added will not increase the capacity of the pump - most probably. The water in the bottle will move slower and therfor not contribute to extra centrifugal energy. My guess.
I am soon finished with a similar idea, but I have used pipes that electrichians use for installing electricity. Close to the center I will bend these pipes towards rotation so water can be pushed into them during rotation, and let the centrifugal force gradually take over and suck water in to the pipes. It will hopefully be vacuum in the pipes close to the center, and hopefully this vacuum will "suck" the wheel around its own axis.
At the same time I will guess that the constantly replaced water in the pipe has to accelerate all the time and therfor counterforce the rotation. This is pretty much how a gyroscope works too. When we want to rotate a spinning wheel angular to the rotation, the mass in the wheel will have a constant acceleration, and therefor prevent the wheel to be rotated angulary to its rotation, but also slow down the wheel.
Well, I guess we just have to try. I will post some pictures when I'm done.
Vidar
I have no pictures, but I had to try the hose experiment - in the shower...
I had a small hose that I was sucking up water from a bucket. I was then rotating the hose hy hand. I did pump up the water at a higher level, but the hose did deflect, and was prevented to rotate freely. A good news is that it seems to take the same energy to sustain the rotation regardless of the hight. It was a big mess of water in the whole bathroom, but it was worth trying it :) - the neighbour downstairs did probably believe I was doing something else....
Anyway. I have been thinking of a way to sustain the rotation with lower energy input, by winding the hose in a spiral so the waterflow would be pushing the hose around when the water leaves the hose, so I don't need so much energy input - it will not selfsustain ofcourse.
Very little friction inside the hose would also help much.
The good thing is that the more we try to load the water flow, the easier it will be to sustain the rotation. If we block the hose completely, it will take very little energy to sustain rotation. The bad thing is that the more we load the water, the slower the water will pass through the hose and therefor reduce the energy output...
But again, maybe it will be possible to raise water quite high with little energy input... I haven't done the math, but I suspect it will take the energy needed to lift the weight of water that high anyways...
Vidar
Keep working on it Cherryman, there are certainly a number of creative ways to be found by which one may offset efficiency loss due to the outwardly migrating liquid mass.
And think of the load envelope and scalability!
I can see your production model between the pages of Distributed Energy Magazine now.....
TS