Hi Scorch

I have tried to use all the 9 pairs of coils as driver coils and to colect the bmf from all. With the first 5 pairs of coils everything was ok ; the imput was not so high and the 47000uF cap was filling fast. When finally made the connection to the rest of the coils, everything went crazy , the halls were on too much time; when touching the negative, rpm begun to rise, and there was not a fixed rpm; i stayed 2 weeks trying to find out whats going on but nothing. I have change 2 times the cables; lots oh halls and i couldn't get it to spin normaly without any strange effect. In the end  i begun to take out the coils one pair at the time. After removing coil paires 9 8 7 6 everything went back to normal.

I saw some video and info about the orbo steorn. Made a little replica of the driving coil wich is a toroid filled with turns. Didn't came out so efficient but the principle is working.
We know that the orbo driving coil is not kicking the magnet when current is sent to the toroid. The magnet from the rotor is atracted by the toroid and when it's energysed the toroid is not atracted any more by the magnet and this is giving free spin to the rotor.
The thing that i observed is that the input power stays allmost the same at high and low rpm.( just like in romero's video.)

Now the big question: is it possible that romero used this principle?

Let's imagine that the driving coil is not kicking the rotor magnets but  it is shielding the rotor magnet and the backing magnet. Then after TDC the coil is not energysed anymore  and the magnetic field from the rotor magnet and backing magnet are in repulsion. We all know how strong are these magnets; this would have a huge torque.

Quote from: mariuscivic on March 01, 2012, 06:10:29 PM
Hi Scorch

I have tried to use all the 9 pairs of coils as driver coils and to colect the bmf from all. With the first 5 pairs of coils everything was ok ; the imput was not so high and the 47000uF cap was filling fast. When finally made the connection to the rest of the coils, everything went crazy , the halls were on too much time; when touching the negative, rpm begun to rise, and there was not a fixed rpm; i stayed 2 weeks trying to find out whats going on but nothing. I have change 2 times the cables; lots oh halls and i couldn't get it to spin normaly without any strange effect. In the end  i begun to take out the coils one pair at the time. After removing coil paires 9 8 7 6 everything went back to normal.
....

Hi Marius,

MAybe your rotor disk diameter is too small for the many and strong magnets, there must be some narrow relationship in diameter vs number of magnet and their strength,  otherwise the fields can get interfere negatively

I am not sure the Orbo principle has ever been shown to be giving more output than input? BUT you think combining it with this Muller-Romero setup as you wrote in the last sentence, it sounds interesting.

Gyula

Hi Gyula

Just make a small test: take a bifilar coil and connect is in series canceling. Then use it as driving coil. The rotor will not spin. Leave it connected and turn the rotor by hand as fast as you can. You will see that the input curent will be allmost the same.  This is what i found interesting here. Just like the orbo.

What I think I know about mechanical engine ignition timing systems is that, in addition to a vacuum advance of timing to compensate for acceleration, there is also a centrifugal advance of the timing to compensate for both electricity, and magnetic, 'lag' inside the wiring, and coil, during higher RPM and switching frequencies which can have a dramatic effect on the delivery of the current to the coil as well as the collapse of the magnetic field at the proper time.

And there are typically THREE different adjustments that can be made to these systems. #1 Point Gap. #2 Dwell (on time) #3 Spring tension on the centrifugal advance plate below the switch (points).

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing

And if you are using a fixed position hall sensor you may run into problems when RPM changes requiring more sophisticated logic to compensate.

But today's electronic ignition systems do it all automatically and one of these systems may actually be the answer these problems and they are very commonplace; even in small engines like lawnmowers and chain saws.

See history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_system

It all about obtaining the collapse of the magnetic field EXACTLY when you want it but RPM effects the timing of the switching which is probably why "everything went crazy".

If you have a rotor that has 8 magnets then a common electronic ignition system for any 8 cylinder engine should suffice.
Either salvaged or new such as this kit that includes the 8 position rotor and switching.
See:
http://www.hot-spark.com/

BUT, be aware, most of these retro-fit kits are designed to be installed into a distributor that already has the centrifugal advance built below the cam/rotor.

And, as near as I can tell, even the latest, greatest, technology and billet distributors STILL use an RPM sensitive, mechanical, centrifugal advance mechanism.
See:
http://www.pertronix.com
(includes videos and documents)
Detail of centrifugal adjustments-
www.pertronix.com/support/manuals/pdf/billet.pdf

It's amazing how much technology goes into the simple goal of generating a BEMF spark at exactly the right time at any particular rpm!

And what I want to know is THIS:

Is it absolutely necessary that my Muller Dynamo rotor shaft has to be non-ferrous?
Or can I simply cannibalize an old automotive distributor, complete with bearings, shaft, switching, and timing already built in; and simply build my dynamo around THAT?

}:>

Quote from: mariuscivic on March 01, 2012, 06:10:29 PM
Hi Scorch

I have tried to use all the 9 pairs of coils as driver coils and to colect the bmf from all. With the first 5 pairs of coils everything was ok ; the imput was not so high and the 47000uF cap was filling fast. When finally made the connection to the rest of the coils, everything went crazy , the halls were on too much time; when touching the negative, rpm begun to rise, and there was not a fixed rpm; i stayed 2 weeks trying to find out whats going on but nothing.

Quote from: mariuscivic on March 01, 2012, 07:05:39 PM
Hi Gyula

Just make a small test: take a bifilar coil and connect is in series canceling. Then use it as driving coil. The rotor will not spin. Leave it connected and turn the rotor by hand as fast as you can. You will see that the input curent will be allmost the same.  This is what i found interesting here. Just like the orbo.

Hi Marius,

And what are your thoughts on utilizing the lack of induction in the bifilar coil from the rotor magnets?

Thanks,  Gyula