Once again

I posted these to help clear up the redundancy that the thread has to the input and output question.
We have nothing external coming in - as I have said before Normal calculations of input versus out put have to be re thought -

Internal input and external output can be measured.

Maybe this will help.

thanks Wayne

MrWayne said,

QuoteI will repeat what I have said - our current single unit is barely better than a hydraulic cylinder - you can measure the input and output  - we do not use weight - but volume and pressure. Yes - our three layer system is clearly overunity by itself.
In this small model - hooking the system together bumps us up by reducing the input further.

Quote from: TinselKoala on August 14, 2012, 04:04:22 AM

So OK, can we please just for a moment concentrate on a single Zed that shows overunity, and not get sidetracked into talking about the full system with high pressures and accumulators and all that?  Let's be specific: let's only, for the moment, discuss the three layer system that is clearly overunity by itself.

When most of us on this site talk about overunity performance, we are talking about a system that outputs more energy than is input, averaged over a suitable time period. This is distinct from "power" or average power, which might seem like the same thing but really isn't.
Energy is measured, in the system most of us use, the SI, in Joules. The units of Joules are also equivalent to the units of Work, that is, force x distance.
Now... for your statement that "the three layer system is clearly overunity by itself" to be credible, that "overunity" part MUST involve some input-output comparison, a comparison of energies or work. Otherwise... how can you justify the "overunity" part of the claim? If you are defining it the same way most of us do, you have got to at least know the input and output energies. But... if you are defining it some other way, we need to know what that is and to agree that it is a valid definition for the purpose.

So... referring now ONLY to the three layer, clearly overunity by itself system....

Go ahead and set it up, you can have this for free. Now it's sitting there, precharged,  waiting to be started up. Right?
And the various pressures, water heights, cylinder positions and so on are known, can be measured. Right?
Now, you start it up and run it through a _complete cycle_. OK? A complete cycle means just that: everything back where it started from, ready to lather rinse and repeat.

How did you start it? How can you tell it's running, what happens at the "peak" of the cycle? And what is required to bring it back to the _identical start position_, including all pressures, fluid quantities, cylinder positions, etc so that it can start over? Describe this please, in your own words that you understand, and please tell us how you arrived at the "overunity" conclusion based on a single cycle, complete, of the three layer clearly overunity system.

Once you have described this in your own words, let's then see if we can translate that into the language of engineering: simply work in, and work out, in Joules.

Please notice that I am NOT asking "how" it does anything. I am just still wanting to know _what_ it does.

You are just simply not going to answer my questions here, are you.

I will ask you just one more time.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOUR THREE LAYER SYSTEM IS OVERUNITY?

What is the ratio of input ENERGY to output ENERGY , or equivalently WORK, in your three layer system that is clearly overunity BY ITSELF, and how did you determine this? If you cannot, or will not explain this simple claim of yours in unambiguous, simple terms.... then there is really no point in my continuing, because you are NOT being sincere, however much you pretend to be.

There, put me in with the stink slingers... and I'll put you in the "oddstuff, OUidiot" file.


Now, perhaps people are beginning to understand why I'm not just leaping up to drive up to Oklahoma. It is far too hot for snowjobs.

Quote from: TinselKoala on August 14, 2012, 01:36:59 PM
MrWayne said,
You are just simply not going to answer my questions here, are you.

I will ask you just one more time.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT YOUR THREE LAYER SYSTEM IS OVERUNITY?

What is the ratio of input ENERGY to output ENERGY , or equivalently WORK, in your three layer system that is clearly overunity BY ITSELF, and how did you determine this? If you cannot, or will not explain this simple claim of yours in unambiguous, simple terms.... then there is really no point in my continuing, because you are NOT being sincere, however much you pretend to be.

There, put me in with the stink slingers... and I'll put you in the "oddstuff, OUidiot" file.


Now, perhaps people are beginning to understand why I'm not just leaping up to drive up to Oklahoma. It is far too hot for snowjobs.

OK - your decision has been made.
As I said before - I have been wrong before - and against my wishes, I am again.
Good day.
Wayne

Quote from: microcontroller on August 14, 2012, 01:58:52 PM
TK you don't understand?

First he triples the force of gravity and the thing sinks until it hit's rock bottom, and then he turns the force of gravity back to normal and the thing rises again.
There is no energy needed to do this and you are always left with a +one force of gravity which is why the triple layer configuration is overunity by itself !

That part's clear enough.
The part I don't understand is what he does with all the extra hydraulic fluid he's generating. You inject 15 units to one Zed and get 30 back. He's said that many times, and that is supposed to be a full cycle for that Zed, right?

QuoteThanks, I have covered the input and output - very short on our current Data model  -
IN -PUT = Each full cycle - 12-15 cubic inches of compressed fluid from the accumulator.
OUT - PUT = Same cycle - 28 -30 cubic inches of (same type) compressed fluid - pushed into accumulator.

So you take 15 volume units of that hydraulic fluid and inject it to the other Zed and it returns 30 back. Now you have 30 cu in extra hydraulic fluid in your accumulator. Pretty soon you are going to have to start selling that off, or the barrels are going to be all over the back yard.

Or perhaps the ratio of 30/15 is for the two Zeds together. But if each full cycle takes 15 out of the accumulator and puts 30 back in... you still have the same problem: too much hydraulic fluid.