@Webby: Now, "lift efficiency" is one thing... but is there any other usable output where excess energy could make an appearance? How about some extra pressure, that could be bled off to a second Zed somehow, like by compressing a bag or helping with a hydraulic assist? It seems to me that this is what the "extra" work claims boil down to, as in the sketches and drawings above.

I don't really see how any excess pressure could be in there at the end or during a cycle, without the creation of excess matter, and I really _really_ hope we aren't going to be claiming that. And I don't see how it could be used without "bleeding it off" somehow, removing it from the system. Otherwise it's just a spring, returning what you put into it.

@TK. The main question you are asking me, is where does D come from.
After a Zed has lifted, the contents are still under pressure, and the water heads are raised. The "load weight" is then removed from the Zed, leaving sufficient residual weight to cause the Zed to lower its pod and risers. At this point, water under pressure exits the Zed. The energy in this pressurised water is D. So , in a sense a Zed has two outputs, B, and D.

Nothing against MT's diagram, as it is easy to understand for most, but Michel (Red_Sunset) diagram has much more detail if you want to understand the Zed Flow.

In the first picture Michel's diagram is broken out from the original document for ease of your discussions.
The second picture is the original document sent by Wayne and created by Michel.
The third picture is of the Bag and Lever Arm.

The hydraulic cylinder assisting the bags used as Hydraulic pumps is the chosen method used by the Zed engineers. It's location is optimal, but it is not important that bags be used in any simplified diagrams, only that there is a hydraulic pump with hydraulic assist indicated. The purpose of a simplified diagram is to reduce the complexity and increase the understanding. Including the full Bag and Lever Arm setup is contrary to the concept of simplified.

Regards, Larry

Quote from: neptune on September 08, 2012, 03:13:22 PM
@TK. The main question you are asking me, is where does D come from.
After a Zed has lifted, the contents are still under pressure, and the water heads are raised. The "load weight" is then removed from the Zed, leaving sufficient residual weight to cause the Zed to lower its pod and risers. At this point, water under pressure exits the Zed. The energy in this pressurised water is D. So , in a sense a Zed has two outputs, B, and D.

Uh huh... and by your explanation, what is left in B is only one half of A, because you have taken D out and moved it to add to C..... So what is left in B and the D add up to the original full B which is equal to A. But you are adding the D from the other Zed to the first B to make up the difference. Doesn't this then remove it from the recirculation cycle? It still seems to me that you are trying to use the same chunk of energy twice somehow, both taking it out from B to use in the other zed but putting it back in _from_ the other zed, and the only way this can happen as you have described it is for extra pressure to come from somewhere. And if the geometry is the same at the beginning and the end, extra pressure can only mean extra mass, extra material.

And you can't just magically "remove" the load weight, can you? Doesn't this "removal" require work input? What is a full cycle if you do not reset back to original positions with everything? You are doing something to "remove" the load weight. Just latch it at the top and let the riser sink away from it? How does it get back down then, do you just drop it?

You still have to explain how you start with one geometry and pressure, go through a cycle and wind back up at that exact same configuration, but with excess pressure. The extra matter has to come from somewhere. You can't have the same geometry with two different pressures, unless there is more compressible matter in one of them. If it is your "D" that you are recirculating, there is no gain there because it comes from the other Zed's B output, by your description. Just like squeezing a partially filled balloon and watching the compressed bubble squirt from one end of the balloon to the other.... it's not going to get any bigger on its own.

----------------------------------

Let me tell you a little story.

Three travellers check into a motel. The newly hired night clerk says "I'm not sure what the rate is for all three in one room; just give me 30 dollars and I'll send the bellhop up with your change."
So each of the travellers gives the clerk a ten dollar bill. So the clerk has collected thirty dollars, and the travellers go to their room and settle in.
Later, when the night clerk has checked, he finds that the room rate is only 25 dollars a night, so he gives the bellhop five ones and sends him to the room to give our travellers their change back. But the bellhop figures, well, there's no way to give five dollars evenly to three people, and they don't know the difference anyway, so he'll just give them one dollar back each... three dollars.... and pocket the two dollars as a tip. So he does that.

Now, each traveller has given out ten dollars and gotten back one. So each of the three travellers has spent nine dollars. Three times nine is 27. And the bellhop has two dollars in his pocket. 27 + 2 = 29. Yet there were thirty dollars to begin with. Where is the other dollar?



The point of this story is that "creative accounting" can be used to clear things up... or to muddy the waters and make you look in the wrong place for your quantities and operations.

@Webby1
When M gets back from vacation and I hopefully have a leak free assembly to work with ( man it's hard watching glue dry )
Maybe we could come up with a common cycle reporting method that would make it easier to compare notes / results ?

The "exhaust" is what is driving many questions and is an area I really want to try to measure.

What I'm considering: ( and it sounds like M has done similar )
- System set up and riser weight / input head balanced ( starting point )
- Risers loaded with an additional weight to lift ( and probably held at the starting  point )
- Input head raised X inches by adding a measured amount of water OR lifting the container until the load is lifted to its upper limit.
- Load removed ( in a hydraulic system, a check valve can accomplish this... )
- Bring the input container / head back to the starting point.
- Measure the amount of water than flows back out of the pod chamber and the riser sink distance ( if any - this is the recapture )
- The big question: How far BELOW the starting point does that container need to go before the risers sink...
And how much of the potential of the lifted load will it take to get the input back up to the starting point ?

The question I hope to be able to answer for myself..... soon enough
Dale