Quote from: eatenbyagrue on October 04, 2012, 02:44:15 PM

This raises more questions than it answers.  God is the creator of all things and is all knowing.  Therefore god created Lucifer with the knowledge of what he would do and what effect it would have on man, but he went ahead and created it anyway.  God is responsible for all things, and nothing happens without his knowing, so, by creating Lucifer and allowing him to exist, with the full knowledge of what would happen, he created the sin.  Why did he do this?


I have also just learned that sins are apparently passed on from parents to innocent children.  Is this sort of like North Korea, where three generations are imprisoned (one's children and parents), for a political transgression.  Actually, it is worse than North Korea.  There it only goes to three generations.  With god, in his infinite wisdom, apparently everyone is guilty.


Also, I am curious about this mercy.  Obviously, since god controls all things, he controls hell, where there is eternal torment for those guilty of the heinous sin of refusing to believe in him on bad evidence, and apparently this sin is worthy of eternal torture. Not a year, not 100 years, not 1000 years, but eternal.  This is quite possibly the worst thing that could possibly happen, and god allows this to happen for seemingly minor infractions.  Tell me again about his eternal mercy, I am confused on that part.  If he did not want anyone to perish, he could simply allow everyone to heaven.  Why not?  Why hold this grudge?  What happened to infinitely merciful?  If one is infinitely merciful, as I understand god to be, should he not forgive people the simple mistake of being born in the wrong hemisphere and therefore believing in the wrong deity.

And what is with this blood sacrifice business?  If this was practiced in our society, we would be abhorred by it.   And how exactly does one atone for one's crime by slaughtering an innocent goat, or sheep or faithful dog?  What did the animal do?  How is this justice?  Why was god so thirsty for blood that apparently anyone's blood would do?  Why accept the blood of an innocent animal as atonement for the crime by a knowing and reasoning human evildoer?  Can you imagine what that goat or sheep or poor puppy is thinking as it is about to be killed (probably thinking "what did I do?")  And why wait for Jesus's coming to change these bloodthirsty rules.  If blood sacrifice was wrong then, does that mean god was wrong and changed his mind.   And why would god change his mind?  Is he not infinitely wise, so should he not always make the correct decision the first time?


Also, finally, how do you even know any of this is true.  Please do not tell me the Bible, as I can show you some books about Poseidon and Zeus.

all of your questions can be answered by some asinine xian ad hoc fallacy... 

"i will create the universe, man, woman and a snake to talk them into getting the original sin. later, i will impregnate a virgin with myself as her child, so that i can be born. once alive, i will have myself killed as a sacrifice to me, so that i can save you from the sin that i originally condemned you to." -- god

understanding religious delusion
let's imagine that i tell you the following story:

there is a man who lives at the north pole.
he lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
during the year, he and the elves build toys.
then, on christmas eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
he puts the sack in his sleigh.
he hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
he then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
he gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
he leaves toys for the children of the household.
he climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
he does this all around the world in one night.
then he flies back to the north pole to repeat the cycle next year.

this, of course, is the story of santa claus.

but let's say that i am an adult, and i am your friend, and i reveal to you that i believe that this story is true. i believe it with all my heart. and i try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as i do.

what would you think of me? you would think that i am delusional, and rightly so.

why do you think that i am delusional? it is because you know that santa is imaginary. the story is a total fairy tale. no matter how much i talk to you about santa, you are not going to believe that santa is real. flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. the dictionary defines delusion as, "a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." that definition fits perfectly.

since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in santa is a delusion. the way that you would try to do that is by asking me some questions. for example, you might say to me:

"but how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" i say to you that the sleigh is magical. it has the ability to do this intrinsically.

"how does santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" i say that santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie the santa clause.

"how does santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" i say that santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.

"why doesn't the security system detect santa?" santa is invisible to security systems.

"how can santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" santa is timeless.

"how can santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" santa is omniscient.

"why are the toys distributed so unevenly? why does santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" there is no way for us to understand the mysteries of santa because we are mere mortals, but santa has his reasons. for example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. how would they afford the batteries? so santa spares them this burden.

these are all quite logical questions that you have asked. i have answered all of them for you. i am wondering why you can't see what i see, and you are wondering how i can be so insane.

why didn't my answers satisfy you? why do you still know that i am delusional? it is because my answers have done nothing but confirm your assessment. my answers are ridiculous. in order to answer your questions, i invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. you don't believe my answers because you know that i am making this stuff up. the invalidating evidence is voluminous...

Quote from: WilbyInebriated on October 04, 2012, 06:42:14 PM
understanding religious delusion
let's imagine that i tell you the following story:

there is a man who lives at the north pole.
he lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
during the year, he and the elves build toys.
then, on christmas eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
he puts the sack in his sleigh.
he hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
he then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
he gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
he leaves toys for the children of the household.
he climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
he does this all around the world in one night.
then he flies back to the north pole to repeat the cycle next year.

this, of course, is the story of santa claus.

but let's say that i am an adult, and i am your friend, and i reveal to you that i believe that this story is true. i believe it with all my heart. and i try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as i do.

what would you think of me? you would think that i am delusional, and rightly so.

why do you think that i am delusional? it is because you know that santa is imaginary. the story is a total fairy tale. no matter how much i talk to you about santa, you are not going to believe that santa is real. flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. the dictionary defines delusion as, "a false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." that definition fits perfectly.

Ohh. I get it now.   

You are still angry since you found out Santa wasnt real.

Man up bud. Let it go. 

MaGs

Quote from: Magluvin on October 04, 2012, 07:41:04 PM
Ohh. I get it now.   

no you don't...

Quote from: Magluvin on October 04, 2012, 07:41:04 PM
You are still angry since you found out Santa wasnt real.

Man up bud. Let it go. 

MaGs

thank you AGAIN for ANOTHER tacit admission that you do not consider yourself logical, reasonable and scientific... since you have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to falsify all the other gawds humanity has created and have repeatedly refused to present the methods you used to validate your gawd.

grow up bud... embrace logic, reason and science. imaginary friends are for the immature minds of children.