@Kator01

Thanks for the post/suggestion, I will check out the video.


floor

@Tim123

I think you are correct, in regard to the iron shell shorting the magnetic current.  A different shell design is needed.

The reluctance/reactance will be high with a perm mag core. 

But I think that the perm mag field can be made to contribute to or detract from to the mag field of the coil.

There fore also to the shell field.

I believe that Iron cores do not increase the strength of a mag coil, but rather significantly concentrate it. (I may be wrong about this)

Thank you very much for your observations and post

              floor

Quote from: tim123 on August 19, 2013, 01:43:45 PM
...

However, I think it's likely it'd give you much less magnetic force than a standard coil - because the PM core will not contribute as much field as a steel core would. Also, if the steel casing isn't magnetised by the PM when the coil is off - then surely that means it's won't be contributing anything when the coil is on either. So the overall effect would be as if the coil had no core at all. Also - as the metal casing goes all the way round - it shorts out the magnetic circuit - so there would be very little field outside the casing.

Hi Tim,


Basically I agree with what you say on a permanent magnet as the 'core' for a coil because every permanent magnet has a permeability of very close to that of the air i.e. 1 just due to its normal saturation.
However, what you say on the steel casing that it would not contribute anything even when the coil is ON is not neccessarily correct because the flux from the upper layers of the coil just under the steel cylinder would surely turn towards the steel, making it also a magnetized core just like the core would be length-wise in the center line of the coil. In fact, you can make an existing normal electromagnet stronger by wrapping a steel pipe / cylinder around it, by doing this you simply add more ferromagnetic core (cross section) to it. Checking this with an L meter, you would certainly see an increased inductance versus the no steel cylinder addition case.
And the metal casing would not short out the magnetic circuit because it becomes a magnet itself when current flows in the coil, the magnetic poles at its ends would develop in the same way as if it were placed in the middle center line of the coil, no?

I assume Floor wants to enhance the strength of a normal electromagnet by adding a permanent magnet to it and I believe it can be done. Would like to show a link, I wonder if you both have seen this drawing on an electromagnet which has both core and permanent magnet inside:
http://www.overunity.com/4624/how-to-make-bedini-motor-overunity/msg96814/#msg96814   

This setup really "shorts out" the flux of  the permanent magnet and when you enter current to the coil and the coil ends would have the same poles as the permanent magnet has, then the flux of both the coil and the permanent magnet would appear outside the core.
By discussing this setup with one of my friends he told me that I could make an as strong normal electromagnet as the added flux comes out from this setup, by choosing a better ferromagnetic core and using more AmperTurns...  And I told him, yes but when you have a restricted space for the electromagnet, then adding a permanent magnet like that could still increase the resultant strength.

However, if you wish to utilize the fact that you get say twice as much flux from an electromagnet in this setup by using the same input power than without the embedded permanent magnet, then you have to find out how the rest of your setup in which you use this "super" electromagnet could utilize the extra flux strength without the usual Lenz or action-reaction effect, right? (unfortunately...)

Gyula

Quote from: Floor on August 20, 2013, 10:20:31 AM
....
Neo mags would hold up better, probably ?

Yes, Neo magnets are much harder to demagnetize by normal AmperTurns used for pulse motors,  heat can demagnetize them much more easily.

@synchro1
/Tim123

I'm not sure I'm understanding your design/description (synchro).. But I believe we are thinking along the similar lines.

If the impedance of a mag core coil is large enough, it will negate the mag force increase caused by combining the mag core and coil fields.

Unless the (duration in time) of the physical movement of the interacting components is long enough, and their motion (has force enough) such that it is work greater than the wattage input.

The duration of  reactance can be very breif, since it only exits / is produced while current is rising or falling.  Once a DC current in a mag core coil peaks, impedance ends, then there is only the electrical resistance of the circuit.  Mean while work may continue to be performed
by the mag fields/motion of the physical components ? 

However any motion of these mag / coil physical components in close proximity and relative to one another, will produce secondary emf / electrical currents within the coils. complications !

I think we are all familiar with the situation.  The question is are these designs / geometry s any solution ? 


       Thanks y'all