Quote from: allcanadian on August 12, 2016, 01:20:32 PM
@I_ron
I'm not sure if you know this but I built and tested the motor you are trying to build as well as a generator based on the same principals around 5 years ago. I built and tested many variations of both and posted some of the designs in this forum. I built one similar motor in which the driving coil could not be induced by the rotor magnet in any way which was kind of neat.

Here is what I found concerning the motor your trying to build, first there is no flow and there are no flux lines and there are no North/South poles as these are simply notations. The field has direction we call polarity and it has field density we call strength or magnitude. In your video you simply demonstrated the fact that opposite poles attract and like poles repel. What makes this setup different however is the fact that the rotor magnet is simultaneously in attraction and repulsion with only one stator coil but utilizing the field from both ends of the coil in the same instance.

Now why do you suppose the strongest force is in the middle?, because the magnet is interacting with both poles of the coil simultaneously not only one. Why does the rotor magnet lock up at the coil ends?, when the coil is off the magnetic field from the magnet couples to the core material which ends at the end of the core. When the coil is on the magnetic field from the magnet couples to the nearest unlike pole and is repelled from the nearest like pole. You can prevent the lock up at the coil poles by momentarily switching off the current at the poles and you may also reverse the coil current after the magnet has left the coil poles to increase the force on the rotor. Why switch at the center of the stator coil or supposed bloch wall?, because the rotor magnet interacts with both stator coil poles equally following the inverse square law. As well we should note that at the exact center of the stator core the field from the rotor magnet should diverge towards both ends of the stator core equally provided the coil was not energized prior. Does this matter?... maybe it does maybe it doesn't.

What I can tell you is your not going anywhere using that infernal manual switch shown in the video, the switching must be of the proper magnitude, timing and duration with respect to the rotor magnet.

AC

OK, that is the best description I have heard so far. I can agree with that.


I was not aware that you had built these motors so this is the information I sought,


Thanks


Ron

Quote from: allcanadian on August 12, 2016, 01:20:32 PM
@I_ron

What I can tell you is your not going anywhere using that infernal manual switch shown in the video, the switching must be of the proper magnitude, timing and duration with respect to the rotor magnet.

AC

Then to if you were more familiar with my work....


That was a quick and nasty red neck switch used to make a point.


Below is a better example of my switching on Phil Wood's 16/24 somaloy cored Motor. It is an hall effect switched, to 7555 one shots and CD4011 lock out logic to a MC33883 H bridge pre driver. 20 pin soic's are just a bit beyond my board making skills so I have taken to using break out boards... and this helps in trouble shooting also as they are pluggable.


However for the Zero Force what I had in mind was opto's to a  gate driver and mosfet... on a bread board, nothing to out of the ordinary


Ron

Quote from: allcanadian on August 12, 2016, 08:56:10 AM
@EMJ

Here's the trick, the hall effect sensor only measures the flux through the sensor face which means it is a directional sensor. In my Labview setup with an oscilloscope graph and bar graph I can easily see large swings at any given point simply by rotating the sensor on it's axis. This tells me the exact direction of the flux at any given point and the max value correlates to the max field density and direction. In effect simply moving the sensor face straight through any region will always give inaccurate readings because the flux/sensor face angle changes.

In effect when I_ron was taking his gauss meter readings and the measure approached zero near the pole this was not because the field strength was decreasing to zero. It was because the direction of the flux was now near 90 degrees to the sensor face and the sensor could not detect it. As I said we must be very careful concerning what we think we are measuring and how we are taking the measurement. If the flux direction is 45 degrees off from the sensor face then we see about one half the real field density measurement and when the flux direction is 90 degrees off from the sensor face we see zero of the real field density measurement. For the record, last year I was making the same mistake as I_ron and my graphs should have been corrected to compensate for the sensor face/flux direction deviations.

AC

Hi AC,

Of course I completely agree, orientation to Field Line Vector is important.

We see readings, from our experiments that are not holding with the Field Line experiments that we have done. Iron Filing Experiment is the worst for our Result, showing we should see a fairly linear reading throughout most of the length of the Magnet. This we're not seeing.

Generally by following the Flux Line, we should see a value that is the inverse square of the distance from the strongest point. Which should be the pole.

As the probe measures both polarities, and North and a South, this could explain the inverse readings, as the probe reaches the Mid-Point, there is equal field strengths and the probe sees a maximum force each side of the Sensor at this point.

The will actually give us a false reading. I am hesitant to say we are reading the same thing twice, as realistically, we are not, or are we...

The Magnet still holds some Mysteries!


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org


P.S: The Link: Fun with Vortex Rings in the Pool

Quote from: allcanadian on August 12, 2016, 01:20:32 PM
....
Why does the rotor magnet lock up at the coil ends?, when the coil is off the magnetic field from the magnet couples to the core material which ends at the end of the core.
...
Why switch at the center of the stator coil or supposed bloch wall?, because the rotor magnet interacts with both stator coil poles equally following the inverse square law. As well we should note that at the exact center of the stator core the field from the rotor magnet should diverge towards both ends of the stator core equally provided the coil was not energized prior. Does this matter?... maybe it does maybe it doesn't.
....

Hi AC,

Would like to tell you that in Bedini's zero force motor setup there is no ferromagnetic core in the coils, they are air cored or rather 'some kind of plastic bobbin' cored to form the two half toroidal coil shapes. This turned out from some of the short descriptions JB gave on his setup on another forum.
I believe that your understanding on the poles in this setup is correct.  By the way, as per JB the rotor magnets ride on the A-field of the (toroidal) stator coils.

Gyula

Quote from: i_ron on August 12, 2016, 03:49:14 PM

Then to if you were more familiar with my work....


That was a quick and nasty red neck switch used to make a point.


Below is a better example of my switching on Phil Wood's 16/24 somaloy cored Motor. It is an hall effect switched, to 7555 one shots and CD4011 lock out logic to a MC33883 H bridge pre driver. 20 pin soic's are just a bit beyond my board making skills so I have taken to using break out boards... and this helps in trouble shooting also as they are pluggable.


However for the Zero Force what I had in mind was opto's to a  gate driver and mosfet... on a bread board, nothing to out of the ordinary


Ron

Nice Build Ron!!!


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org