Quote from: partzman on April 21, 2017, 04:00:05 PM
Before this thread gets totally out of hand, I would like to propose at least one answer to MH's question above.  The TBC could be modeled as a symmetrical transmission line wherein each wire of the bifilar pair contains lumped inductors and the distributed capacitance between this bifilar pair are lumped capacitances connected between the lumped inductors.  I've attached a schematic to represent this. 

If this is correct, it might explain how when at a certain frequency no current appears to flow thru the TBC but yet induction can be detected with a separate sense coil in proximity.  IOW, the TBC is still inductively active when it appears not to be.  Possible applications to free energy, well, I guess that is up to us to figure out!

PM

Looking at your depiction it looks correct, where you could expand on that and show tiny caps between turns every so often on the turns.  My thoughts looking at this would seem to show that the caps have to be charged through the inductor windings, not in parallel where the input sees the cap at each end directly and the same with the inductor, where in a series lc it would seem a closer relationship where the cap has to get its charge through the inductor. I know that the coils have been showing parallel attributes of what happens with the input at resonance, but I still see the series version when looking at the schematic as do I see the one in my head. lol  Anyway...

Like if it were a single wire coil, the capacitances are all in series from end to end and do a direct connect at each end of the input, of which would emulate the parallel.  But if we look at the bifi, we have a very similar situation with all the tiny capacitances in series from end to end with the input, where the input would charge them in divisions of series caps and they would end with a fraction of the input, but that string is reconfigured in another way also, where say the first tiny cap in place at the beginning of the windings is only connected to the input on one side and the other end of the tiny cap is connected half way through the coil, thus for the larger charge to take effect it has to be electrically through the inductor to do so, thus my series impression.  So the bifi is an odd thing where the caps between each turn ARE all in series from end to the and connect to the input at either end directly just like the single wire coil AND the higher voltage developed in the caps has to go through the inductor.  So I think perhaps there are and can be dissimilarities when saying that a simple 2 component lc can do all the things a bifi can do. Maybe most have not given it any wild and crazy ideas beyond just testing and using a simple lc.

Mags

Quote from: Magluvin on April 21, 2017, 07:53:16 PM
Looking at your depiction it looks correct, where you could expand on that and show tiny caps between turns every so often on the turns.  My thoughts looking at this would seem to show that the caps have to be charged through the inductor windings, not in parallel where the input sees the cap at each end directly and the same with the inductor, where in a series lc it would seem a closer relationship where the cap has to get its charge through the inductor. I know that the coils have been showing parallel attributes of what happens with the input at resonance, but I still see the series version when looking at the schematic as do I see the one in my head. lol  Anyway...

Like if it were a single wire coil, the capacitances are all in series from end to end and do a direct connect at each end of the input, of which would emulate the parallel.  But if we look at the bifi, we have a very similar situation with all the tiny capacitances in series from end to end with the input, where the input would charge them in divisions of series caps and they would end with a fraction of the input, but that string is reconfigured in another way also, where say the first tiny cap in place at the beginning of the windings is only connected to the input on one side and the other end of the tiny cap is connected half way through the coil, thus for the larger charge to take effect it has to be electrically through the inductor to do so, thus my series impression.  So the bifi is an odd thing where the caps between each turn ARE all in series from end to the and connect to the input at either end directly just like the single wire coil AND the higher voltage developed in the caps has to go through the inductor.  So I think perhaps there are and can be dissimilarities when saying that a simple 2 component lc can do all the things a bifi can do. Maybe most have not given it any wild and crazy ideas beyond just testing and using a simple lc.

Mags

Lol, a lot of these so called nutty ideas come to me as I write here at times. So here goes nuthin....


Thinking about what I just wrote has me thinking that your schematic may need fixing a bit. Follow me here...

In a single layer rod coil, we have the tiny caps connected between adjacent turns turns(and let me know if I need to do a 3d representation of my vision) where when it is all done we can see that all over we have strings of caps from input on the left and input on the right. Those in themselves are a series connection between input connections. So that is like a parallel lc and all in series like that the total voltage of all in series should be equal to the input, leaving tiny percentages of the input in each. So the capacitance of a standard coil ends up with tiny affect on the inductor(unless you want to work at those freq with such coil). 

So in the bifi if we start placing the same tiny caps between adjacent turns in the end we still have the same series strings from input connection to input connection. The exact same if the coils were wound identical.  But we also have this alternation of turns which kinda makes things different. We have a separate arrangement that connects the caps differently 'through' the coil, that luckily through resistance we have voltage division in the windings that allows the caps to take on half of the input voltage across the board.  So in the bifi we have basically 2 capacitances to deal with .

Im hoping you are getting this Parts as Ive heard you have put this stuff though the ringer for some time and should be familiar with what im getting at.

Sooo, for the new wild and crazy thought.....

If the series strings of capacitors all across the coil, no matter how the coils are connected bifi or standard, we have to agree that there is a series capacitance across the input in spite of the coils other properties, then what happens to that series capacitance when all those tiny caps get charged to half the input voltage and are yet all in series with the input???     Think on that for a moment or as long as it takes.  It just may very well be the big deal here..

Im feeling a 3d coming on to help dispose any conflict with what im saying.   If we can charge the caps to half the input, then there are all these series caps that would add together to a higher voltage than the input. Not saying it is happening and is usable as we are fiddling, but there may be a way to take advantage of that.

Hey, Im just bangin on the outside of the box. Seems logical. 

Thanks for replying to MH and inspiring that thought. 

Mags

Quote from: Erfinder on April 21, 2017, 03:49:58 PM



You've  shown what......how many dead ends....more than me that's right....not sure if one should be proud of that...

Fact is Erfinder,you have not shown any thing,and most here are starting to see that.

Your riddle's have become a bore to most--it's getting old now.

Brad

Quote from: Erfinder on April 22, 2017, 01:57:52 AM
If I want to show someone something I contact them and show them.

Roger that.  And it usually takes months to digest it all.   

Quote from: MileHigh on April 21, 2017, 03:32:07 PM


And of course I ask the questions that many won't ask or they are afraid to ask because of the special flavour of political correctness around here:  What is the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil good for?  What can you do with it?  I have asked similar questions about other issues that nobody dare speak in the past.

I think it has already been indicated, some of the applications of pancake bifilar, you are only try put "sand in the gears" nothing more .
You can try to test in a practical way, in your laboratory of work, instead of continuing to regret that they do not answer you in relation to your doubts, on the pancake bifilar.
See how a bifilar pancake coil could be used to do nice work in transfering power  :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEZSCNHDYJs