Quote from: partzman on April 24, 2017, 11:30:23 AM
FWIW, attached is a sim of a TBP coil modeled as a cross coupled symmetrical transmission line which hopefully will answer some questions about the uniqueness of this device.  This sim was based on parameters supplied by TK and are as follows- individual winding inductances are 172uH and 176uH, the series connected inductance is 680uH, capacitance between windings is 2.8nf, and the DCR is 3.9 ohms.  When the sim and TK's TBP bench results were compared, they were within ~1.5%.

TBP_1A shows the plot sweep from ~50kHz to 1.25MHz and as can be seen there are 2 dips and 1 peak in Vout across the 1 ohm sense resistor.  There is also a trace showing the sum of the all the currents in the odd inductors L1-L23 over time representing one winding of the TBP and the other line is identical but not shown for clarity.  Also, the 10v peak input voltage Vin from the generator is divided by 100 for plot clarity.

TBP_2A shows an expanded view of the first dip in output voltage/current in Vout across/thru R1.  The frequency is ~277kHz, Vout is ~561uv rms, while the total current in the odd L's is ~140ma rms.  This shows the apparent output current to ground of the TBP to be nearly zero while there is still induction in both windings which would be detectable with a separate sense coil in proximity.

TBP_3A shows an expanded view of the 1st peak in output current at 505kHz plus the levels of output voltage and the odd L's winding current.

Regards,

PM

Edit: Added 'cross coupled'.

Thanks  alot, for the great info!

Quote from: partzman on April 24, 2017, 11:30:23 AM
FWIW, attached is a sim of a TBP coil modeled as a cross coupled symmetrical transmission line which hopefully will answer some questions about the uniqueness of this device.  This sim was based on parameters supplied by TK and are as follows- individual winding inductances are 172uH and 176uH, the series connected inductance is 680uH, capacitance between windings is 2.8nf, and the DCR is 3.9 ohms.  When the sim and TK's TBP bench results were compared, they were within ~1.5%.

TBP_1A shows the plot sweep from ~50kHz to 1.25MHz and as can be seen there are 2 dips and 1 peak in Vout across the 1 ohm sense resistor.  There is also a trace showing the sum of the all the currents in the odd inductors L1-L23 over time representing one winding of the TBP and the other line is identical but not shown for clarity.  Also, the 10v peak input voltage Vin from the generator is divided by 100 for plot clarity.

TBP_2A shows an expanded view of the first dip in output voltage/current in Vout across/thru R1.  The frequency is ~277kHz, Vout is ~561uv rms, while the total current in the odd L's is ~140ma rms.  This shows the apparent output current to ground of the TBP to be nearly zero while there is still induction in both windings which would be detectable with a separate sense coil in proximity.

TBP_3A shows an expanded view of the 1st peak in output current at 505kHz plus the levels of output voltage and the odd L's winding current.

Regards,

PM

Edit: Added 'cross coupled'.

hey Parts

Would it not be possible that there is a series of cap plates that go from end to end of the coil also? As instead of referring to each turn in your schematic, lets look at 1mm of each turn in relation to the next turn and the next all the way to the other out terminal of the coil? Divide the winding into 1mm sections and look longways to the other end of the coil. We could be frigidity and say that well no matter how we look at it, there isnt even a 1 mm string directly across the length from actual entry of one end and the other, for there is at least 1 turn of the coil at either end, but thats much much closer than half way through the coil. But I think it would be interesting if we could isolate the thing with particular operation as to see if with a normal coil, yes the V divisions between turns total the input, but if bifi, and there is 50% input V between each adjacent turn, how might that add up if we were to say cut input and possibly read a spike that is input / 2 times the number of turns(minus the fidgit).

If we did see a spike that did coincide with 50%Vin x Tn as in number of turns, then we can assume the possibility of what Im thinking is the same. And if it is then I also think the bifi coil should also resonate at the same freq of a single wire coil.  Is your sweep going into the mhz on the bifi, in the range that the single wire coil rings?

If the bifi does have also an upper res freq like the single wire(possibly not exactly the same freq for the fidgit sake), now it is operating on the same capacitance as the single wire we would have to say. I would. What then of the 50% voltage developed between turns? Does that function still happen and for brief moments there is higher potential in opposition to the input??    Would be a nice thing to ponder. The bifi has a greater complication as to its workings than a typical lc and even the lc components of a single wire coil which are much closer to a typical lc of its given values.

I spent some time setting up circuits like you show, and once I got to the 3rd example I guess the applet could not handle the idea of so many caps and coils and lap froze. lost it. So I decided to just write it. Will do that though, but on separate windows so it doesnt bug out.



Mags

Quote from: Magluvin on April 24, 2017, 03:55:30 PM
hey Parts

Would it not be possible that there is a series of cap plates that go from end to end of the coil also? As instead of referring to each turn in your schematic, lets look at 1mm of each turn in relation to the next turn and the next all the way to the other out terminal of the coil? Divide the winding into 1mm sections and look longways to the other end of the coil. We could be frigidity and say that well no matter how we look at it, there isnt even a 1 mm string directly across the length from actual entry of one end and the other, for there is at least 1 turn of the coil at either end, but thats much much closer than half way through the coil. But I think it would be interesting if we could isolate the thing with particular operation as to see if with a normal coil, yes the V divisions between turns total the input, but if bifi, and there is 50% input V between each adjacent turn, how might that add up if we were to say cut input and possibly read a spike that is input / 2 times the number of turns(minus the fidgit).

If we did see a spike that did coincide with 50%Vin x Tn as in number of turns, then we can assume the possibility of what Im thinking is the same. And if it is then I also think the bifi coil should also resonate at the same freq of a single wire coil.  Is your sweep going into the mhz on the bifi, in the range that the single wire coil rings?

If the bifi does have also an upper res freq like the single wire(possibly not exactly the same freq for the fidgit sake), now it is operating on the same capacitance as the single wire we would have to say. I would. What then of the 50% voltage developed between turns? Does that function still happen and for brief moments there is higher potential in opposition to the input??    Would be a nice thing to ponder. The bifi has a greater complication as to its workings than a typical lc and even the lc components of a single wire coil which are much closer to a typical lc of its given values.

I spent some time setting up circuits like you show, and once I got to the 3rd example I guess the applet could not handle the idea of so many caps and coils and lap froze. lost it. So I decided to just write it. Will do that though, but on separate windows so it doesnt bug out.



Mags

Mags,

Yes, there is capacitance along each winding as well as coupling between the sections and those small values are left out of the sim for simplicity as they really don't seem to affect the outcome.  It is interesting and very educational to view plots of the voltages and currents at various locations throughout the sections to gain an understanding.  I have found that it is not always what one expects.

Although I cut off the sweep frequency at ~1.28Mhz, there is at least one more resonance peak that is not shown at a ~1.48Mhz.  I haven't gone beyond that so I'm not sure what other peaks and dips may exist but I'm sure they are there due to higher harmonics.

I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP. 

PM

Quote from: partzman on April 24, 2017, 05:30:25 PM
Mags,

Yes, there is capacitance along each winding as well as coupling between the sections and those small values are left out of the sim for simplicity as they really don't seem to affect the outcome.  It is interesting and very educational to view plots of the voltages and currents at various locations throughout the sections to gain an understanding.  I have found that it is not always what one expects.

Although I cut off the sweep frequency at ~1.28Mhz, there is at least one more resonance peak that is not shown at a ~1.48Mhz.  I haven't gone beyond that so I'm not sure what other peaks and dips may exist but I'm sure they are there due to higher harmonics.

I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP. 

PM

ok.  Dont know if you have a duplicate of a bifi in single wire with same ga wire and no. of turns to compare the bifi upper resonance to. Id be interested in the effects possibly with inducing the single wire from the bifi if they were in res at the same freq. Im not asking you to do it, but its part of what I want to do.

And.... 

"I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP"

That is on my list i posted day one of me posting here.  Have you done this?

Mags

Quote from: Magluvin on April 24, 2017, 06:00:52 PM


"I'm not sure if this will address some of your other points including the single wire, but say we take one winding of the TBP and drive it with a sine generator while leaving the other end open, then use the other winding as a secondary with a load.  We are now creating induction in the secondary with the displacement current in the distributed capacitance between the windings.  Is Lenz still in effect?  What will our overall Pout/Pin look like?  Lots of room for experimentation here!  Perhaps there is a use for the TBP"

That is on my list i posted day one of me posting here.  Have you done this?

Mags

That one was given to me earlier and I dont want to take credit for the idea of figuring it out by myself. I will give credit where it is due as need be. 

Mags