"However, what's for sure is that it has no effect whatsoever on the efficiency of the total system because ALL of the electrical power that is input is STILL dissipated as waste heat. The efficiency of the system is still 0%." polarbreeze

THIS ARGUEMET ONLY WORKS AS LONG AS YOU IGNORE THE ENERGY STORED IN THE ROTOR AS INERTIA (YOU CANNOT) ALSO HEAT IS NOT WASTE.

THE WORK DONE IN TEST # 2 TO ACCELERATE THE SYSTEM WAS NOT SUPPLIED BY THE MOTOR OR THE SOURCE POWER SINCE THESE PARAMETERS WERE IDENTICAL IN BOTH TESTS.

THE ENERGY REQUIRED TO DO THE WORK REQUIRED TO ACCELERATE THE SYSTEM ?  WAS SUPPLIED BY THE GENERATOR LOAD VIA A 3? PIECE OF STEEL NOT BY THE MOTOR SINCE TEST # 1 PROVED THE MOTOR COULD NOT ACCELERATE THE ROTOR WHEN THE GENERATOR WAS NOT MAGNETICALLY COUPLED TO THE MOTOR.

THE ENERGY STORED AS INERTIA IN THE ROTOR IN TEST #2 IS THEREFORE FREE BECAUSE THERE IS NO ENERGY COST ASSOCIATED WITH IT.

ALSO TO CREATE A SHORT CIRCUIT IN A GENERATOR AS SHOWN IN THE DEMOS ONE WOULD HAVE TO PLACE AN INFINITE LOAD ON THE SYSTEM IN PARALLEL I.E. AN INFINITE NUMBER OF LIGHT BULBS, FRIDGES, AIR CONDITIONERS ETC.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html

Work-Energy Principle

The change in the kinetic energy of an object is equal to the net work done on the object.
This fact is referred to as the Work-Energy Principle and is often a very useful tool in mechanics problem solving. It is derivable from conservation of energy and the application of the relationships for work and energy, so it is not independent of the conservation laws. It is in fact a specific application of conservation of energy. However, there are so many mechanical problems which are solved efficiently by applying this principle that it merits separate attention as a working principle.

Thane

p.s. To learn something about flywheel energy storage...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

How about this for measuring the torque?
I was going to make it for my unit but I thought I'd get your opinions first.
And YES Thane, my motor does accelerate just as  you have demonstrated!

Regards
Vince

Sorry;
I can't compress my drawing enough to get it to go thru.

Vince

Quote from: OilBarren on March 07, 2008, 06:31:19 PM
Polarbreeze said: "However, what's for sure is that it has no effect whatsoever on the efficiency of the total system because ALL of the electrical power that is input is STILL dissipated as waste heat. The efficiency of the system is still 0%." polarbreeze

Thane said: THIS ARGUEMET ONLY WORKS AS LONG AS YOU IGNORE THE ENERGY STORED IN THE ROTOR AS INERTIA (YOU CANNOT)
Polar replies: The energy stored in the rotor does not factor into the equation for calculating power, nor efficiency. The reason is that in the steady state, this stored energy is not changing so it has no effect on power-in, nor on power-out. (Because power = energy/time)

Thane: ALSO HEAT IS NOT WASTE.
Polar: Well, it's not waste if your goal is to heat your workshop; otherwise it's certainly waste. But if you remove the word "waste" from my statement it does not change the technical meaning so it's a moot point.

Thane: THE WORK DONE IN TEST # 2 TO ACCELERATE THE SYSTEM WAS NOT SUPPLIED BY THE MOTOR OR THE SOURCE POWER SINCE THESE PARAMETERS WERE IDENTICAL IN BOTH TESTS.
Polar: During acceleration, less waste heat was generated than otherwise, because some of the power was instead diverted to raising the rotational energy of the rotor. This rotational energy will be given back eventually as heat when the rotor slows down (when you change the drive conditions or switch off the system). There is no indication of any change in efficiency.

Thane: THE ENERGY REQUIRED TO DO THE WORK REQUIRED TO ACCELERATE THE SYSTEM ?  WAS SUPPLIED BY THE GENERATOR LOAD VIA A 3? PIECE OF STEEL NOT BY THE MOTOR SINCE TEST # 1 PROVED THE MOTOR COULD NOT ACCELERATE THE ROTOR WHEN THE GENERATOR WAS NOT MAGNETICALLY COUPLED TO THE MOTOR.
Polar: Again, the concept of efficiency applies to the steady-state condition. In that state, there is no acceleration (nor deceleration).

Thane: THE ENERGY STORED AS INERTIA IN THE ROTOR IN TEST #2 IS THEREFORE FREE BECAUSE THERE IS NO ENERGY COST ASSOCIATED WITH IT.
Polar: The energy stored in the rotor is NOT "free" - it is supplied by the motor, which in turn is supplied by the electrical power input. In addition, for some of the experiments, the power to help the rotor get up to speed is supplied by Thane's hand.

Thane: ALSO TO CREATE A SHORT CIRCUIT IN A GENERATOR AS SHOWN IN THE DEMOS ONE WOULD HAVE TO PLACE AN INFINITE LOAD ON THE SYSTEM IN PARALLEL I.E. AN INFINITE NUMBER OF LIGHT BULBS, FRIDGES, AIR CONDITIONERS ETC.
Polar: why not just a good, solid, thick piece of wire?

I'll try this as a photo.  Sorry for the poor quality

Vince