Here is a repost of my argument against magnetic flux, Mr.Entropy is right though about the level of flux that may exist if Thane is offering a closed loop path, so Thane are you?

quote powerunlimited: "To Aether 22:
I bought the ryobi grinder at home depot and removed all of the things wheels ect its a bare motor except for a plastic wheel with holes part of  the optical tach and thats a very very tiny load.
No addtional load was applied,plasic wheel on one end bare shaft on other end ,the variac was adjusted to make the motor run slow but stable,since in a lot of experiments that Thane has done the motor is run at a low speed by adjusting the variac,motor speed was not effected by a strong magnet near the bare shaft  i used a ceramic magnet.I use the laminated part of a  refrigerator fan motor  with the moving part removed pluged into the 120ac voltage, i also put the open part where the ac field is strongest directly on the shaft no effect
now the motor speed tends to drift ,not accelerate, but i made the rpm as stable as possible no effect.The ryobi motor is very shielded as far as construction goes.My conclusion is no magnetic field or ac magnetic field effects this motor at the bare shaft so at two feet away forget it as in videos 1,2. Now to the non believers because a ac magnetic field  or static magnetic field has no effect on the ryobi motor this does not mean Thanes device doesn't work only that what gets to the motor isn't a magnetic field."



I would like to express just how unlikely it is that it could be a magnetic field for those who have only recently started reading this thread.

A magnetic field does not move very far through steel without loosing the vast majority of of it's strength in an open circuit, but  we are meant to believe that the magnetic field from the coil (by all accounts not awfully powerful) passes through a super strong neodymium magnet (12,000 gauss) which is saturating nearby steel making it as conductive to the coils magnetic field as air, through spokes, through a shaft that seem more than a foot long and then must compare to the far far stronger fields created by the motor. (the fields in the motor are stronger than the fields in the coil let along after it has conducted all this way)
From simulations with vizimag it would seem to be 1/100th of the strength at the coil at most. (and that was simulating with a permeability of 100,000! and without tiny breaks present in reality which drops conducted flux hugely.)

But wait, I forgot to include the fact that the Neo is probably saturating most/all of the core the the coil is wound on likely making it little more than an air core.

The measured field at the rotor is 25 gauss which is really tiny (some of which is likely to be a remnant magnetic field or a bit of flux leakage from the neos), that's 160th of the strength of a ceramic magnet and far closer to the earth magnetic field, and yet the effect on the motor is the difference between a dead stop (despite the fact that slower speeds have lower loads though admittedly increasingly inefficient use of the motor) and speeding up to the point where it must be stopped for fear of it flying apart if left to accelerate any longer.

And this is in stark contrast to the demo where a Neo stack is brought near the shaft of a motor to exhibit only a very very hint difference in speed (and therefore current)

Also the fact that the effect (well an obviously related effect) was highly non linear as discovered by hoptoad, requiring a low resistance otherwise it slowed it down, that is interesting since assuming the same carries over to Thanes we must ask why the field from the coil would change so much by doubling or trippling the current? (with hoptoads setup it seems plausible that some complex timing might have been at work but that is not possible with Thanes!)
Even more so since the effect appeared almost insensitive to magnetic field strength, showing a huge effect from a single coil and a long shaft with multiple breaks or showing only slightly stronger action from more coils and a far shorter axle with no substantial breaks, that would probably be in reality up to a 100 fold difference in the strength of the magnetic field delivered to the motor i'd guess from simulations.

In short it seems that what is getting into the motor is what I am sure is aether but what others might call torsion/spin fields, orgone/odic, animal magnetism, Zero point Flux/Energy etc... (the same thing discovered many times given different names)

So if you want to believe it's a magnetic field, or 'back-emf' that's fine with me but since I have tons of evidence that the aether is real and is created by generators and can have effects like this all before Thane came along you will understand if I call it aether. (except for polarbreeze who won't understand)

Still I'd like to bring it back around to theories and suggested experiments.
Let's create a list of experiments and discuss the merit of them.

Something to ponder,5 neo magnets 3/4 inch put on the shaft,with the wheel,rotating with the shaft
the rpms of the wheel are  monitored by an wireless optical tach just bought it cheap ,thats accurate to .5 rpm,
no effect the wheel accelerates
when the coil is shorted as with out the magnets on the shaft,not a magnetic field as for what it is,"UNKNOWN" just did this a while ago.If theres 25 gauss on the shaft normally imagine how much with 5 neo 3/4 inch magnets on the shaft and it still accelerates with the coil shorted very strange shit.

Quote from: OilBarren on March 23, 2008, 05:06:03 PM
IF YOU LOOK AT THE CROSS SECTION OF THE DRIVE SHAFT IT WILL HAVE POLARITIES AS SHOWN BELOW:
  N  pole
O  - Drive Shaft
  S pole

Inside the motor, maybe, but if your coils are sending any flux through the shaft, it'll run longitudinally, and in alternating directions as the polarity of the magnets that pass them changes.

Quote
EVEN IF YOU COULD CREATE A BRUSHED SYSTEM FOR READING YOUR DRIVE SHAFT COIL OUTPUT
- THERE WOULD BE NO OUTPUT BECAUSE THE TOP HALF OF THE COIL'S INDUCED CURRENT WOULD BE CANCELLED BY THE BOTTOM HALF.

You don't need brushes -- the coil doesn't need to turn with the shaft, and doesn't need to wrap it tightly.

"But wait, I forgot to include the fact that the Neo is probably saturating most/all of the core the the coil is wound on likely making it little more than an air core". Aether22

AETHER22 THIS IS PROBABLY THE MOST INTERING PROPOSAL I HAVE HEARD YET...!
AN AIR CORE WOULD PRODUCE THE MINIMUM BACK EMF INDUCED FIELD.

SO WHY THE DIFFERENCE IN PERFOMANCE PRE AND POST 3" STEEL BAR?

WE HAVE ALSO CONSIDERED POSSIBLE MOTOR ACTION FROM THE ROTOR FLUX AT THE SHORTED COILS.
Thane

Quote from: Mr.Entropy on March 23, 2008, 07:41:51 PM

Quote from: OilBarren on March 23, 2008, 05:06:03 PM
IF YOU LOOK AT THE CROSS SECTION OF THE DRIVE SHAFT IT WILL HAVE POLARITIES AS SHOWN BELOW:
  N  pole
O  - Drive Shaft
  S pole

Inside the motor, maybe, but if your coils are sending any flux through the shaft, it'll run longitudinally, and in alternating directions as the polarity of the magnets that pass them changes.


WHAT HAPPENS INSIDE THE MOTOR ALSO HAPPENS ON THE DRIVE SHAFT SINCE THEY ARE ALL PART OF THE SAME "MAGNET" ESSENTIALLY.

SOMEONE SHOULD RUN A DC FIELD THROUGH A ROTOR AND CONFIRM THIS?
TOP TO BOTTOM NOT END TO END.

Thane