Quote from: JustMe on March 31, 2008, 10:48:20 PM
Does the rotor slow to a stop, or just slow down and maintain?

Does higher current/lower voltage mean more back emf as opposed to lower current/higher voltage? I apologize because that's probably a really easy one, I just don't know.

THERE ARE 3 COILS IN THE PICTURE:

1 HIGH VOLTAGE GREEN - 26 GAUGE WIRE HVG1

On the same coire
1 HIGH VOLTAGE GOLD - 26 GAUGE WIRE HV2
1 HIGH CURRENT GOLD - 14 GAUGE WIRE HC3

THE HIGH CURRENT (HIGH BACK EMF) GOLD COIL HC3 WHEN SHORTED SLOWS THE ROTOR PRODUCING 2 A @ ABOUT 700 RPM.

THE HIGH VOLTAGE (LOW BACK EMF) GOLD COIL HV2 NEUTRALIZES HC3's HIGH CURRENT SHORTED DECELERATION EFFECT AND EVEN SURPASSES IT AT CERTAIN SPEEDS CAUSING ACCELERATION WHILE THE HIGH CURRENT COIL HC3 S PRODUCING 2 AMPS OR MORE. (THIS WILL BE GREAT FOR CHARGING OUR DUNE BUGGY BATTERY)

THE HV2 PRODUCES ABOUT 100 VOLTS 0.5 A @ 700 RPM

SO ON THE DUNE BUGGY WE WILL BE SWITCHING BETWEEN COILS TO OBTAIN REGENERATIVE ACCELERATION HV COILS ENGAGED - REGENERATIVE BRAKING HC COILS ENGAGED OR REGENERATIVE COASTING - BOTH HV and HC COILS ENGAGED.

MY "USELESS" THEORY AND OPINION (VALID ONLY TO ME) IS:

AT A CETAIN HIGHER SPEED THE HC COIL WILL ALSO CAUSE ACCELERATION or IF THE TURNS RATIO OF THE HC COIL IS INCREASED.

AT THIS POINT THOUGH WE DON'T REALLY CARE WHY THESE PHENOMENONS OCCUR WE TOO BUSY EXPLOITING THEM (REAL SCIENTISTS CAN EXPLAIN IT LATER - AFTER THEY EXPLAIN WHAT ELECTRICITY AND MAGNETISM REALLY ARE).

Thane

Quote from: Mr.Entropy on March 31, 2008, 10:13:54 PM

Quote from: polarbreeze on March 31, 2008, 05:48:31 PM
As far as I can see, the only requirement would be that by changing the coil connections you can cause the the torque-speed characteristic of the device to go from being a stable one to an unstable one with that particular motor - and there seems to be plenty of opportunity to do that with all the coils and magnets that are in play there, don't youÃ, think?

Not on average, no.Ã,  The system will accelerate when it is at a speed where load torque < motor torque.Ã,  If you apply any kind of break, which is what the load coil is supposed to be, then it increases load torque at various speeds by various degrees -- that's what "break" means.Ã,  Since it does not also boost motor torque, this can only reduce the extent and depth of any accelerating speed ranges.Ã,  It cannot introduce an accelerating speed range.

So far so good. So with coil configuration "A", let's call it, the motor will stabilize at a speed where load torque = motor torque. I think we both agree on that, and it is what Thane has observed.

Quote from: Mr.Entropy on March 31, 2008, 10:13:54 PM
The coil is not really just a break, however.Ã,  It is on average, but its inductance gives some inertia to the current in it, so its magnetism, once established, will not be cancelled immediately by Lenz's law, and will actually boost the rotor during some parts of the rotation.Ã,  If one of these little boosts could nudge the rotor so far into a speed range where it accelerates that it was caught up by the increased motor torque and increased further before the breaking part of the cycle could push it back down into the stable region, then it could initiate a sustained acceleration.Ã,  It would then accelerate to the top of the accelerating speed range.

Yes, it could be something like that and this condition can be invoked by changing the coil configuration, to configuration "B" say (eg, adding a coil or shorting a coil or reversing a coil's polarity etc). Unlike configuration "A", which is stable, configuration "B" may be unstable and so cause the speed to rise indefinitely. It can actually be a very small change to the coil configuration that causes this unstable condition if "A" is already on the very edge of the stable range - in that case, connecting or disconnecting one of the coils for example (creating configuration "B"), could push the system into instability, resulting in the acceleration which has been observed.

Quote from: Mr.Entropy on March 31, 2008, 10:13:54 PM
If this were the case, howerver, then disconnecting the coil would increase the extent and depth of the accelerating speed range and cause the rotor to accelerate further instead of slowing down as it does.Ã, 

I disagree with that. Don't forget that instability can go in either direction. It can EITHER result in acceleration OR it can result in deceleration. It just depends on which way the system starts to go when the instability first sets in. The point is that it tends to move AWAY from its previously stable speed/torque, but it can be in either direction. That topic was described in the paper I just posted a link to.

Quote from: Mr.Entropy on March 31, 2008, 10:13:54 PM
Also, this significant boosting is not plausible given reasonable estimates of the rotor inertia, coil inductance, and motor torque curve.Ã,  The acceleration effect would also not increase with the number of connected coils, as it appears to do.

We disagree here too. The reason is as I outlined above. If the system setup (config A) is only just stable then only a very small change (from A to B) can be enough to make it go unstable. Also, adding coils may act to make it even more unstable and so increase the effect, consistent with what has been observed. I don't see a justification for your statement that the boosting is "not plausible given reasonable estimates of the rotor inertia, coil inductance, and motor torque curve" but if I've missed something, please explain it to me.

PB

To save walking up and down the lab you could always buy some multi-stranded enamelled wire:
http://www.wires.co.uk/acatalog/st_wire.html
They do a 60 strands of 0.315mm and 1000 strands of 0.14mm wire all in 500g spools.
For longer lengths just create a "tap" at every 500g and then you have the option of connecting in line or parallel.

Ryobi 6" bench grinder, about 150 to 250 watts input?
Induction motor?

What is the voltage on the high current coil?
HV2 output is 100V x 0.5A so that could be 50Watts or if RMS is taken into account 0.707 x 100 x 0.5 = 35 Watts

Wild guess here: Shorting the longer length of wire might be to do with the delay in the field collapse of the core material creating less cogging of the rotor but you would also see a reduction in the high current coil.

Regards
Rob

I just had another thought about the stability/instability thing. Since only a small perturbation may be needed to cause the system to go from stable to unstable, that perturbation could actually also be created by the presence or absence of nearby ferrous materials, since that may have a small effect on the magnetic properties of the system. This is a possible explanation for the reports that the system behaves differently with a steel shaft versus a brass shaft. Just a thought.

PB

I have been watching this thread from the very first post, quietly in the background.  Originally, I saw the news article, and then did some additional searching and found http://tyler.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2008/2/4/3505063.html which ultimately led me here.  I'm highly impressed by the progress that has been made and the collaboration of all those who have offered ideas and attempted to replicate Thane's results.  The thread has led to many interesting dinner discussions with both my children and at times friends and peers.  My background is and has been in Finance and the development of start-up companies.  My interest in this topic is more a hobby than professional in nature and I have often investigated other reports of potential "free energy" claims/projects e.g. "The Searl Effect" "Steorn" etc.  I look forward to the daily posts and the test results and am looking forward to Aether's future results.
I just felt I should take the time to say thank you to all those involved and their willingness to post their observations and data.

OK THE DAY IS ALMOST OVER SO I GUESS IT'S TIME TO COME CLEAN.  ALL OF THE ABOVE IS 100% TRUE.  THE BELOW HOWEVER...

SADLY PB DIDN'T BITE ON MY APRIL FOOLS JOKE.  PB YOU ARE BEYOND ANNOYING AND IT IS CLEAR TO EVERYONE THAT YOU HAVE NO REAL INTEREST IN THE RESEARCH BEING DONE.  I CAN ONLY PRAY THAT PEOPLE WILL SIMPLY STOP RESPONDING TO YOUR POSTS REGARDLESS OF HOW AGGRAVATING AND NONSENSICAL THEY ARE.  THE ONLY POSITIVE THAT YOUR REPETITIVE POSTS HAVE BROUGHT ME IS THE LAUGHTER  I ENJOY WHEN THANE MOCKS YOU IN HIS RESPONSES.

I also want to thank Polarbreeze for his continued involvement.  His fair and reasonable questions.  His desire to learn and bring some order to the discussion and his obvious intellectual openness and thought provoking questions, answers and ideas.