Practical Method for Production of Water Fuel with Piezoelectric

petar113507 · March 28, 2011, 05:25:29 PM

@B_rads, Thank you for your suggestion about surface tension in the water. I'll give it a test to see if it modifies the HHO rates when the epoxy dries on the tupperware.
In regards to your PDF, you have an interesting way to think about the subject -- but I have one question.

This may seem like a basic question, but Do you think the bowl is suspended in the air, or the water?
To me, it came across as though your bowl covered in the zinc oxide crystals would be in the air -- which I beleive to be the incorrect setup.

To anyone who thinks the bowl should be in the air -- I ask, how would the ultrasonic transducer propagate the waves to the crystals? I think "in the air" bowl could be a viable option, if you tweak the entire setup. As powerme has laid it out so far -- this does not seem to be the case -- instead to be laid in the water where the waves can readily make the crystals vibrate very quickly.

If the effect were soley due to temperature -- why would we be shooting for 43 KHZ, and not use the 1.7 MHZ fogger? 1.7 MHZ produces more "heat", but not more HHO with the crystals.

As far as I can tell -- the reason that the crystals are destroyed in my setup have been due to too MUCH heat/vibrations from the ultrasonic fogger -- They should stay stable while they are around their resonant frequency, or slighty above it @ 45 KHZ.

I am only trying to clairify, to see if I can set any potential "group" to be in a similar direction. I don't want anyone to be confused. I would love to hear your theory after you've put some tests out to verify that that is the "effect".

My results seem to currently indicate that it is not the thermal dis-association of water as you would suggest, which produces the dis-association. Temperature may be a symptom that we can see relating to cavitation, but it would not nescessarialy be the cause. I think the effects of the cavitation, were what powerme knows how to use/altrez working to use to produce power.

If I have mis-understood what you meant -- Can you please clairify it further? I'd like to encourage as many people as I can to work on the project -- but I would not like anyone to give up frustrated, because they had a hypothesis which was not clearly, or completely formed.

I do not mean to dampen your creativity, but I simply do not think that you have considered all of the factors contributing to this particular setup. Powerme told us in his posts it was pizeoelectric -- If you can prove it to be thermoelectric, that would be very interesting.
So far, my setup seems to be pizeoelectric, and I'm thinking it will be more so pizeo-electric when I get the correct frequency correct.

Cheers mate,
==Romo

RAD-HHO · March 28, 2011, 05:48:24 PM

Romo and all,

regarding the bowl, in the original drawing Power posted, it stated they were splash guards. As far as I can tell thats the only purpose they can serve with this set-up. On the other hand, Power says the fog is easily disassociated with the crystals. No fog in the water.

b_rads · March 28, 2011, 06:09:40 PM

Great observation RAD-HHO
@petar113507
Thank you for entertaining my view on what I think this process is doing. I certainly enjoy a good theoretical discussion with you on this, however I am far behind you in the experimental stage. Still awaiting supplies.
If my physics serve me correctly â€" the speed of sound in air is around 750mph, whereas it is approximately 3,000 mph in the water. When the sound escapes the water it loses velocity and deflects in strange ways. We want these sound waves to move around the chamber as quickly as possible, so I agree, the bowl needs to be in water.
The effect we are looking for is not the temperature of the entire body of water. In fact, when the temperature of the water gets to within 10 degrees of boiling, cavitation ceases. It would be unreasonable to believe that we could bring the entire body of water to 3,000 C or higher in our home experiments. We are looking for cavitation bubbles that implode with temperatures said to be 10,000 C. Remember that these cavitation bubbles implode immediately and this whole process is incredibly fast affecting only the water molecules adjacent to the bubble. This is why the whole mixture should not overheat. At 43Khz, the cavitation bubbles are at there largest size, and are the most violent. Even at 43Khz, you probably wouldnâ€™t see them as they are microscopic in size.

When I have conclusive tests I will be happy to share them with you. Until that time, you are the man with answers as you appear to be much further along than I am.

petar113507 · March 28, 2011, 06:24:09 PM

Quote from: b_rads on March 28, 2011, 06:09:40 PM
Great observation RAD-HHO
@petar113507
Thank you for entertaining my view on what I think this process is doing. I certainly enjoy a good theoretical discussion with you on this, however I am far behind you in the experimental stage. Still awaiting supplies.
If my physics serve me correctly â€" the speed of sound in air is around 750mph, whereas it is approximately 3,000 mph in the water. When the sound escapes the water it loses velocity and deflects in strange ways. We want these sound waves to move around the chamber as quickly as possible, so I agree, the bowl needs to be in water.

The effect we are looking for is not the temperature of the entire body of water. In fact, when the temperature of the water gets to within 10 degrees of boiling, cavitation ceases. It would be unreasonable to believe that we could bring the entire body of water to 3,000 C or higher in our home experiments. We are looking for cavitation bubbles that implode with temperatures said to be 10,000 C. Remember that these cavitation bubbles implode immediately and this whole process is incredibly fast affecting only the water molecules adjacent to the bubble. This is why the whole mixture should not overheat. At 43Khz, the cavitation bubbles are at there largest size, and are the most violent. Even at 43Khz, you probably wouldnâ€™t see them as they are microscopic in size.

When I have conclusive tests I will be happy to share them with you. Until that time, you are the man with answers as you appear to be much further along than I am.

There we are, it was just a mis-understanding from my part.
Thanks for clearing that up.

I was going to be a physics major in college, so I know a little bit on about how we view the world.

I have only become more intensely interested in older theories, and what people could do in "olden days" science.

It sounds then, like you might be going along a similar thought tangent I had a while back.

This may just be food for thought, but these are questions which helped me better understand (what I think) is going on here. If you have not already considered these:

What relation does electricity have, compared to temp.?
What is temperature/heat?
How are we using that to our advantage with the crystals? (I already may have shared that with the "doink" push of the crystals)

And finally -- If all of these do have a relation to one another, then why are we adding Magnesium to the crystal structure?

You are simply describing that that resonant frequency creates the cavitation bubble effect. I got a little confused when you were talking about temperatures/cavitation bubbles being (as I interperted it, to be) the cause of the crystals vibrating -- not the "symptom", or effect of the waves moving through the water.

There is a subtle difference.

Glad to be able to compare notes.
Cheers,

==Romo

@All I am not an expert at the setup, and my fogger has not yet arrived, so I cannot accurately say whether the bowl is better suited in the water/air. It is, (until I test it), my opinion that it should be in the water. I want to be clear about this, so that everyone is open to testing their hypothesis-es.

petar113507 · March 28, 2011, 06:29:56 PM

It doesn't have to be too pretty -- I stuck the pizeo inside by cutting out part of the top of the fuel tank. It will be epoxied shut when I no longer need access to the inside of the container.
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss173/Romo_Land/HHO%20ICE/0328111025.jpg

This one was taken as I was making it. You can see the little circle cut out on the back for the black fuel-line hose. Soldering iron in the background, as well as an old audio amp I'm taking apart, and some of my batteries for the project.
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss173/Romo_Land/HHO%20ICE/0328111026.jpg

The white tubing is the "in" tubing to connect to the fan. the chamber is the fan which I will use (It is large enough for overkill of both the fogger, and the fuel-atomizer). The pizeo is inside the chamber.
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss173/Romo_Land/HHO%20ICE/0328111417.jpg

This one shows the tubing hooked up to the intake manifold. This is where the air filter was on the engine -- and you can even see the filter + screws below it just after I took it off. I am pointing to the junction where the tube goes to the engine.
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss173/Romo_Land/HHO%20ICE/0328111418.jpg

It is before where I am pointing, that I plan on making a 3 way junction, with an on/off valve -- like in this picture.

I plan to duct-tape a trash bag to the fan (labeled "bag"), and then use large aquarium tubing to connect the air-pressure bag to BOTH the gas atomizer, and the HHO/water atomizer (Labeled "HHO Gen" in picture).
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss173/Romo_Land/0328111439.jpg

Then, get two "Ball Valves" in front of the HHO "Gen" on the the output lines, so that by opening or closing the valves slightly, I can modify the ammount of either side of the fuel-input.

If you don't know what ball valves are google it.
Here you go:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=614&q=ball+valve&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=

The whole purpose of this post, is to show that the setup doesn't have to be pretty, or very expensive. Probably the most expensive part of this setup was the epoxy (they're five dollars per tube -- and I liberally apply epoxy to be on the safe side of sealants), and the fuel cans -- 10 bucks or so (nescessary to be gasoline-resistant).

These are my ideas for a prototype -- this prototype will not be very mobile, but should be functional, and should allow me to run tests on the engine.

I'll keep you guys posted when the new pizeo head comes in, and what I'll be doing with that.

=======================================
Powerme, I am researching the Lead Sulfide effect which you had mentioned as your next project to share. It is looking like the "Epitaxial" process of laying down the lead sulfide vapor over a silicone surface would form the crystals we are looking for -- the timing, and very precise weight measurement would allow us to see what size of crystals we are growing. Putting it over the silicone surface, as well would form some type of "diode" junction for the "power out" which we would obtain. (I am assuming this is why you mentioned silicone refinement with an HHO torch -- so that we could do it ourselves at home to make the pure silicone slab/sheet)

I asked what kind of equipment I might need to make the crystals, because I am under the impression that this process will require a little bit more intense equipment -- such as a vacuum chamber, or a high heat source.

If we do require these things, then I need to start to look for someplace outside of my apartment to do my experiments, now, as this breaches my contract with the complex. I would also need to look where I can find such machines to establish the conditions, under which the crystals will grow to the proper size.

I do not mean to prod here, but I have done a lot of work recently without knowing exactly what is ahead. Because what you have said so far has made sense to me, and I have regonized it to be true -- I have been willing to take those risks. I do not mean to come across as unwilling to work, or unwilling to research, and look to you for an easy answer -- But I have been taking risks that could have been a little smoother if I had a little bit of a heads up before hand. With more expensive/dangerous equipment, I need to know as much as I can about it. In order to research this, it would be nice to know sooner, rather than later. I don't think this is entirely unreasonable. If you are unwilling to share any information -- I understand. I would like to know, because I am "on board" for future project information which you might share -- and could be getting a "head start" on it. I am eager to work.

Like I said, I feel that I need to act quickly in order to change things. I am ready to act.

I do not know the procedure which you have planned, or machines/matierals used to make this project. Anything would help. I will make a post later tonight about everything I know about lead sulfide and the expitaxial depositing of lead/lead sulfide, so that you do not have to explain everything.

Like I said, I am willing to work dilligently -- and I am listening carefully to what advice you give.
Thank you for everything you have been sharing.

In regards to the virtues, I have been reading over the list often, and I feel more resonance in my heart from it -- I feel happier, and kinder towards others, and more sincere. I think the word is "heartfelt". Perhaps "coincidentally" related, but I understand more concepts from walter russell now.

I am currently reading the book you suggested on electricity.

Thank you,
==Romo