PhysicsProf Steven E. Jones circuit shows 8x overunity ?

[ElectroGravityPhysics.com]

1.    As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, I do not trust this method:  "the output power (CSR RMS voltage divided by current sensing resistor value times load RMS voltage)". 
   For example, suppose the output has a strong AC component with current out-of-phase with the voltage waveform...  will your method give the correct output power?  Suppose the RMS current (over the CSR) is close to zero -- does that mean the output power is really zero?
1b. Do you agree that using the calorimetric method I've proposed above will provide a more accurate measurement of Poutput than your RMS-method?
2.  How did you measure the input power? 
3.  What value of Pinput did you determine? 
4.  Did you use the capacitor/time method for measuring Pinput with your method, to check it?

Thanks for your patience and thoughtful comments.  It shows that you have worked with a lot of students over the years, in your career as a Physics teacher.  (smile) 

Here are my answers, as best I understand it:

Power Input:  I tested both a lead-acid battery (a small 6 volt) and a lab-bench supply with variable voltage and current.  I found the highest efficiency of the circuit at around 3.5 volt input with a lab-bench supply, using a decoupling capacitor of 47 uF mounted right on the +V and â€"V rail on the bread-board.  The ripple voltage is 200 mV with the decoupling capacitor and about 1.4 V without.  The ripple frequency is a high frequency of 12.2 MHz.

Due to the small ripple with the decoupling capacitor, the effective input-power is just 3.5 (DC) * Icsr (mA) RMS of about 110 mW, since the there is no significant phase relationships between this DC voltage and an AC current.

Capacitor/Time Method: I have not tried the capacitor/time method for measuring input/output power.  I will be happy to try if you think it would be worth the time and effort, despite the initial negative results.  Let me know.

I also sometimes wonder if an old worn out battery with a larger internal resistance is important in this circuit, to achieve high power efficiencies.  And, perhaps using a decoupling capacitor for the power supply is throwing the baby out with the bath-water i.e. killing the high power gain effect that we are trying to measure?

CSR RMS voltage: Since I do not have access to a high-end scope to do integrals of the instantaneous input/output power waveforms, I used the inaccurate and “quick and dirty” method of multiplying Urms with Irms.  I know this is not accurate â€" but it has some value as I will describe now.

My reason is that if the RMS power calculations shows less than 100% output efficiency - there is no point to start measuring accurate phase relationships between voltage and current. 

In other words; an in-phase (perfect sync) sine wave of current and voltage will always show the highest apparent and active power value, but an out-of-phase current will always show a lower active power. 

For a reactive load, where the voltage and current are out of phase, the apparent power will [ALWAYS] be greater than the active power.

For those folks who do not already know, here is a quick primer: http://home.earthlink.net/~jimlux/hv/varvom.htm

So, if your circuit shows an efficiency of more than 100% (like the report in your initial video) I would be excited to investigate further - and to try to measure with accurate current voltages values, including phase to quantitatively document the power gain/loss.  But, in my version of your circuit it shows a lower than 100% efficiency - from the quick RMS calculation, so what is the point to do an accurate integral of the voltage and currents then?  We already know the active power result will even be less than the apparent power - due to the phase difference between U(t) and  I(t).

Does my logic make any sense? (smile)

Calorimetric Method: If you think this circuit is following the entire standard and agreed upon laws of the physical sciences, and there is no external source of “non-heating energy” - for lack of a better word, then YES this test would be perfect.

However, if you think there might be some unusual effects and possible a tunneling effect of “cold energy” â€" non-heating energy â€" then I do not think the calorimetric method will measure correctly.

Speculation: There are reports that Mr. Floyd Sweet shorted the wires of his electromagnetic device, and got a nasty frost bite on his fingers.  This is opposite of standard heating current which will heat and melt any metal wires that come together â€" like a welding machine.

Also, Dr. Moray reported his wires were cold, when his machine was running and heating a large array of light bulbs.  This seems to raise some questions about what type of energy is this â€" does it come from heat or is it some sort of energy that produces work without heat?!

Perhaps you may call it “cold energy” â€" as an over-used and popular buzz word in the over-unity community, but a regular BxV field effect (motional electrical field from moving magnets and/or moving charges) may be non-shieldable and produce no work - even when causing electric charges to move in its field. 

I am so impressed with this largely ignored property of the BxV field effect that I have dedicated a whole web site to it at www.ElectroGravityPhysics.com

It is possible your circuit is tapping into the BxV field effect from the bifilar wound coil.  It is easy to show with simple vector math that the magnetic field can cancel â€" under certain circuit configurations, like a bifilar wound coil and others â€" yet still produce a BxV field effect. 

Even Floyd Sweet talks about the BxV field effect as the driving principle in his electromagnetic energy device, yet most people seem to ignore it.

Summary: I hope this answers some of your questions, but please note that the last part contains some speculation, other than the BxV field effects from moving charges and/or magnets which seem quite real, even if non-mainstream. 

[JouleSeeker]

EGP --  thanks for the replies.

You wrote:

Due to the small ripple with the decoupling capacitor, the effective input-power is just 3.5 (DC) * Icsr (mA) RMS of about 110 mW, since the there is no significant phase relationships between this DC voltage and an AC current.

Capacitor/Time Method: I have not tried the capacitor/time method for measuring input/output power.  I will be happy to try if you think it would be worth the time and effort, despite the initial negative results.  Let me know.

YES, I think it is worth measuring the input power using the cap/time method.
A large cap, Pinput =Einput/time, Einput from 1/2CV**2 .  Straightforward -- and a very important check on your RMS method (which I doubt is accurate, as noted also by .99). 

That is, we can then compare your Pinput from the RMS method (110mW) with that which you'll deduce from the cap/time method. 

Also, please note that your reported Pinput of 110mW is MUCH higher than what I've found in my original circuits (typically <15mW, and down to a few microwatts).

[JouleSeeker]

EGP:

Also, Dr. Moray reported his wires were cold, when his machine was running and heating a large array of light bulbs.  This seems to raise some questions about what type of energy is this â€" does it come from heat or is it some sort of energy that produces work without heat?!

Perhaps you may call it “cold energy” ...

I have a particular interest in the Moray device, and I'm reading a book on the subject by his son.  But I have not seen this report that "his wires were cold, when his machine was running."   Could you provide any type of reference for this?  for Moray's device, that is.  Very interesting if true.

[ElectroGravityPhysics.com]

EGP:
I have a particular interest in the Moray device, and I'm reading a book on the subject by his son.  But I have not seen this report that "his wires were cold, when his machine was running."   Could you provide any type of reference for this?  for Moray's device, that is.  Very interesting if true.

Yes, I have read the book also, but not much building information comes out of it, in my humble opinion.  Here is a quote from one of the pages in the book:

"[p. 111 ] The device was housed in a wooden box something like 12" by 18", with an antenna and a ground going into it. Wires leading out of the box led to a bank of some forty 100-watt light globes and to an electric iron. My uncle touched a switch at the top of the box with a hand electrostatic plate and the globes all lighted brilliantly. We all noted that the bulbs burned cold except each had a hot spot about the size of a dime on the top slightly off center. I also recall that I could turn the lights on and off by approaching and retreating to and from the device, either with my whole body or my hand. If my memory is clear, the machine had to be tuned with a dial to be placed in this condition. [Chester M. Todd, March 19, 1971]"

[p. 40] While the light was burning Mr Moray disconnected the antenna lead-in wire from the apparatus and the light went out. He connected it again and the light appeared. He also disconnected the ground wire and the light went out. He then connected it and the light appeared again."

If seems like the device is a highly tuned HF receiver of sorts, since the power generation is affected by people walking to and from the device.  The "cold white bulbs" comment is very subjective, but it is worth mentioning.

I am very interested to learn more about the Dr. Moray, Floyd Sweet and Hendershot type of devices.  Let me know your thoughts, or in a personal message if this is off topic in this thread.

-Nils

[ElectroGravityPhysics.com]

EGP:
I have a particular interest in the Moray device, and I'm reading a book on the subject by his son.  But I have not seen this report that "his wires were cold, when his machine was running."   Could you provide any type of reference for this?  for Moray's device, that is.  Very interesting if true.

This also interesting as to the nature of the energy produced/received by Dr. Moray: 

"The terminal attached to the antenna was disconnected. A vigorous arcing occurred and the sparks jumped over an air gap as much as eighteen inches. This would indicate that the power was high voltage and the nature of the sparks indicated a high frequency.."

http://www.svpvril.com/Moray.html

-Nils