Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect

[Magluvin]

Well in my opinion using a snubber is not as good as discharging the inductive energy to a few volts above the supply voltage in most situations like pulse motors and such. I've done plenty of experiments that showed me this. Try a snubber diode on a Bedini, ie. use the energizer as normal to charge a second battery, then fit it with a snubber diode, take away the charge battery and start it up without adjusting anything, see what happens. In my experience the motor runs slower and requires a wider pulse width is less efficient and less powerful. Depending on what result you want or are happy with will depend on what you do.

I'm fairly sure I can clearly demonstrate the effect with the motor I am experimenting with now. Should I ?

Cheers

"Well in my opinion using a snubber is not as good as discharging the inductive energy to a few volts above the supply voltage in most situations like pulse motors and such. I've done plenty of experiments that showed me this."

I actually find it the other way around. 

The snubber causes the coil to keep itself energized for a short period of time( same magnetic polarity, just decreasing) after the input to the coil is removed. And I have demonstrated this. I have to look through my YT vids to see if I have it there.  If not I have the vid or will reproduce the experiment.

If the original timing for turn on is very close to TDC, the snubber may slow things down because it is holding the attraction field(if set up in attraction) past TDC.

But in the case of push, the snubber should extend the push beyond switch/transistor turn off. Instead of storing the collapse energy into a cap or other load, the energy is stored in the rotor. in this case one would want to switch on at or just after TDC.

Romero was using this snubber on his primaries before he produced the Muller.  Its here somewhere.

Mags

[Magluvin]

I actually find it the other way around. 

The snubber causes the coil to keep itself energized for a short period of time( same magnetic polarity, just decreasing) after the input to the coil is removed. And I have demonstrated this.

Also if sending the collapse current to a load, the magnetic field presence is extended longer, being that current is still flowing through the coil.

Looking for the vids now.

Mags

[Farmhand]

"Well in my opinion using a snubber is not as good as discharging the inductive energy to a few volts above the supply voltage in most situations like pulse motors and such. I've done plenty of experiments that showed me this."

I actually find it the other way around. 

The snubber causes the coil to keep itself energized for a short period of time( same magnetic polarity, just decreasing) after the input to the coil is removed. And I have demonstrated this. I have to look through my YT vids to see if I have it there.  If not I have the vid or will reproduce the experiment.

If the original timing for turn on is very close to TDC, the snubber may slow things down because it is holding the attraction field(if set up in attraction) past TDC.

But in the case of push, the snubber should extend the push beyond switch/transistor turn off. Instead of storing the collapse energy into a cap or other load, the energy is stored in the rotor. in this case one would want to switch on at or just after TDC.

Romero was using this snubber on his primaries before he produced the Muller.  Its here somewhere.

Mags

Like i said it depends on what you want, I want as short as possible "on times" so a snubber is counter productive to me. you can't start the next pulse until the first event is over. Snubbers are for switching relays or loads like Regular DC PM motors and stuff in my opinion. Each to their own. The point is I gave an "opinion" and then you made out I was wrong which was impossible anyway because it was my "opinion", I did state that. I'll show a test as well then. I've got a fixed "on" time and adjustable timing so to leave everything the same and make the snubber change will show any effect at all. I might need to turn it off to make the change so I'll probably use a pull starter to get back up to speed quickly for the video. My motor doesn't like to run below 1000 rpm without changing the pulse width or the timing. I'll keep discharging my coils to a higher voltage be it a capacitor or a battery. Even using a 12 volt globe as a load like a snubber slows the motor and no change I make can make it perform like when the coil is discharged to a higher voltage. We need to work with what actually happens in our own setups. Anyway I'll make another clip, I don't want to be misunderstood because of my way of explaining things or whatever reason.

When the coil discharges current doesn't flow through it current flows "from" it, If current flowed through it then a current could be scoped into the coil from the rail when the switch is "off", my intuition tells me that when the switch is "off" no current enters the rail end of the coil because the switch is off, it is the halting of the current that causes the
field to collapse. "Through" and "From" are quite different. Also if current was flowing through the coil it would create a magnetic field, I don't think this is the case. After the switch closes the magnetic field only gets less I think.

How would a person detect and measure a spike in the magnetic field strength, density or size as a result of the collapsing field ?

Cheers

[MileHigh]

All:

When a coil discharges current always flows through it.  Current flowing "from" the coil is all a question of your point of view I guess.

If the coil discharges into a snubber diode then you might be tempted to say that current flows "through" the coil.  If the coil discharges into a charging battery you might be tempted to say that current flows "from" the coil.   In reality for both cases current flows through the coil and through the load.  If the load is "close by" like a snubber diode or "far away" like a charging battery, the exact same process is taking place -> when a coil discharges you observe decreasing current and corresponding decreasing magnetic field, and you can ignore the voltage completely.

How would a person detect and measure a spike in the magnetic field strength, density or size as a result of the collapsing field ?

Interesting question.  For starters there is no spike in the magnetic field strength when the coil discharges.  I would suggest that a simple current sensing resistor in series with the coil will do the job.  The faster the current decreases the higher the voltage the coil will generate.

You have to keep in mind that the famous high voltage back-EMF spike is a result of the action that the current is doing.  That's not literally true in the sense that any energy discharge from any electrical device by definition is a combination of voltage and current.  However, capacitors are thought of as voltage-based devices with variable current, and inductors are thought of as current-based devices with variable voltage - and that is literally true.

For a coil, the voltage is a function of the rate of change of current.
For a capacitor, the current is a function of the rate of change of voltage.

This is carved in stone and if you can "grok" that it helps you analyze how circuits work and interpret your scope captures.

Anyway, you guys seem to be having a lively discussion and I may be able to catch up later.

MileHigh

[MileHigh]

A few more comments that I am sure some of you are aware of.

It's impossible to open a switch and stop the current flowing in a coil.  Of course you know that you get a high-voltage back-EMF spike when you do this.  The thing to keep in mind that decreasing current is flowing through the coil when you do this - the main point being that current is still flowing.

So what that means is that the classic line, "the battery is charging from 'pure potential' and no current (or 'almost no current')" is pure bunk.  By definition current is flowing.  In fact it's the flowing current that is creating what is mistakenly referred to as the "pure potential."

When the switch contacts open the air instantly ionizes and conducts electricity and keeps the current flowing.  So if just before the switch opens thee is one amp flowing through the coil, just after the switch opens there is still one amp flowing through the coil.

MileHigh