Confirming the Delayed Lenz Effect

[synchro1]

Skycollection's new toroid core input comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfv6sWSk9QY

[MileHigh]

Farmhand:

In your schematic, are the charging coil and the motor coil on the same core?  You have the same designation "MC1" for both coils.

I can only make some general comments.  The lower traces show that when the MOSFET switches off that there is an "orderly discharge" of the coil energy through the D2 diode and into B2.  The upper traces show a near-instant drop off in the current so that is generating a voltage spike across the coils.

Certainly you see the classic exponential rise in the current through R2 and the coils when the MOSFET switches on because of the property of inductance.

I have to confess I see what looks more or less right in the blue traces but by the same token I am confused and am not sure where you have the ground probes.

To explain the operation, after the first pulse the charging coil discharges into C2 which charges it to about 20 volts when 12 volts supply is used

That's what it looks like and I have no doubt that you observe 20 volts across C2.  Here is the thing to ponder:  Let's say when the MOSFET switches off that there is one amp of current flowing through the charging coil and the motor coil.  Look at the junction of R1, R2, and C2.  By definition, just after the MOSFET switches off one amp has to be flowing through R1 and one amp has to be flowing through R2.  That leaves no current to flow into C2.   Therefore at first look, all of the current that flows through the charging coil has to flow through R1 and R2 and onwards, and it does not flow into C2.

So what I am suggesting to you is that it merits further analysis, if you are up to it.  Trust me, I am not trying to give you a hard time.  It's simply hard to see all of the subtleties.

Here is what I would do if I wanted to figure out exactly what was going on:  I would do the old sensor coil trick.  I would hook up one scope channel to a separate and isolated sensor coil to get an independent timing reference for the cycling of the motor.  Then, you can put the second scope channel _anywhere_ in the circuit.  So your are free from any constraints of where you put your ground probe.  You can look at all of your CSRs, and look at the voltage across C2.  Looking at the voltage across C2 allows you to _derive_ the current through C2 because you know that the current through C2 is simply proportional to the rate of change of voltage across C2.

This is a lot of work, no doubt, and you probably aren't going to go there.  In the end what you can get is a timing diagram that actually describes the operation of the circuit.  You can line up scope captures with some image editing software so that you end up with somewhere between say five and a dozen traces that show you exactly what is going on.  How C2 gets charged up will be answered with that exercise.  I did all this in electronics labs more than 30 years ago.  There is a tangible sense of satisfaction and accomplishment when you do this.

MileHigh

[Farmhand]

The charging coil is a separate coil with a separate core this is clear in a couple of the video's, the MC1 label was a mistake it should be MC2.

This is the way wave form at the Cap C2 looks. I've already showed it. The cap fills to almost double the supply then discharges and refills again.
It's a classic "de-q'd" charging cap wave form.  If there was no "de-Q-ing" diode the 20 volts or so would return to the supply before the next bang if the charging circuit is not at full resonance. It's the same wave form I get at the charging cap of my Tesla coil circuits. And it would be the wave form as would be produced by the Tesla IGNITER FOR GAS ENGINES patent device (if it had a "de-q-ing" diode). The purpose was to get a higher voltage into C2 to dump through the motor coil. I'ts not perfect but it works way better than with just the one Motor coil and the charging coil 12 inches away on the bench. So it's a win win for me. I'm happy to go ahead and develop it further.



In the four shots picture the two scope grounds are together at the motor coil end of R2, one probe goes to the other side of R2 and the other goes to the drain, I've described that as well.

I'd like to go on and make a generator coil but if there is any wave form in particular you would like to see, i'll do it if I can. I'll remove the de-q-ing diode and get a shot from the cap C2 probed at C2 with the ground on the circuit ground, I did mean to do that.

I apologize for editing posts my computer is occasionally shutting down so I gotta save or possibly lose.

I've found a couple of ways to do away with the second battery but none work quite like the battery to give a neat looking current wave form.
The battery has low resistance but has 12 volts of built in "counter emf". I think the only best way is to keep a cap at 12 volts somehow while allowing the spike to build the voltage in the cap then dump it through the charging coil every now and then maybe once every few rotations or something. Or use a small cap so it can be dumped every bang.

Milehigh if you look back in the thread you will find a comparison of the currents through the two coils.


EDIT: AS you can see the cap C2 drops to Zero volts, if the cap C2 is at 20v and the supply is at 12 volts when the mosfet is switched on the current flows from C2 through the Motor coil before the current in the charging coil can start to flow because of C2's higher voltage, there is some time when current flows through both at the same time but the start of the current is delayed in the charging coil. This is evident in the current wave form comparison.

The idea is to use short pulse widths and higher input voltages with the correct LC relationship to secure the correct difference in current phases.

Cheers

..

[PiCéd]

Skycollection's new toroid core input comparison:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfv6sWSk9QY

It's apparently a good idea, a coil with a toroid in the middle of.
In other way, I see that the output voltage decrease with the rotor accelerate, the amperage must do the same thing.

[Farmhand]

Milehigh, Here's the voltage and current wave forms. For the scope shots the yellow is the motor coil and Blue is the charging coil. EDIT: And for the voltage measurements the scope grounds were at the circuit ground the probes at the positive ends of the coils. The thing is there is only 12 volts applied to the charging coil, because of the diode and the the way it works after the charging coil discharges into the cap the positive end of it becomes at the voltage of the charging cap it discharged into. you can see the 12 volts battery voltage applied to it drop slightly under load then rise in volts to the same as the capacitor C2. Because the motor coil has over 20 volts applied to it the current moves quicker and starts just before the charging coil current, the charging coil current ends as is shown in the scope shot 6 mS after the motor coil current ends and looks like the motor coil current starts 12 mS before the charge coil current, (my charge coil has less inductance it should be the same as the motor coil and will be soon). The delay in the peak current seems to be about 12 mS.
We can see the voltage applied is practically in sync to begin with, but the inductor voltage curves down as the motor coil discharges the capacitor C2.

The frequency of the motor was higher when the current wave forms were taken, it was 74.63 Hz. So the phase delay can be calculated from that being there is two magnets on the rotor.

I thought it was obvious. There is a definite delay in the phase of the currents and it can be manipulated by known means and utilized easily enough.  Even if there was no delay the charging coil could still aid the rotation, it's just a matter of placement. I'll do some calculations and see if I can find the phase angle delay and such things.

To see the divisions better just download the pic and view blown up a bit maybe if anyone wants to be accurate.

The delay in the phase of the currents is related to the pulse width in a way but also due to voltage over inductance and resistance effects as well as the return current from the discharge of the motor coil.

Well that's all based on if I'm reading the scope correctly.

Cheers

P.S. I got a reading of the phase and shots below, with a duty of 30% "on" time for the mosfet I get a phase difference of 40 degrees which is about where my coil is. The setup is using 400 mA and running at 2500 rpm. I added a 1 uF capacitor between the charging coil positive where the charge current return is and ground to catch the voltage spike as shown. 

..