Ibpointless2 Crystal Cells

[Peanutbutter29]

Just was gonna post some pics, but I did notice Phi's question.  You know looking at that starch molecule it would seem possible to react.  A bit of searching did turn up some information at least;  If you'd like to know. (pg. 211-212 if it doesn't go right there)
http://books.google.com/books?id=E22gW9CbU_0C&pg=PA211&lpg=PA211&dq=starch+react+with+metal&source=bl&ots=WJ9PFhTFCI&sig=0A2IXI7CPkEt0AtlQ2UTJUOqgmI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=w9ZwT7_oL8Pg2gWo6_DxAQ&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=starch%20react%20with%20metal&f=false

metals can react with starch to produce Starchates lol.  Some were noted to even be violent!!  However, from what it looks like;  starchates seem to need a metal chlor-ide / ate.  It was noted though that if starch was a participator in a reaction, it would bind with most things, even sulfates.  So, with your case and no chlorine it's probably just assisting the hardening.

I believe the starch will react some with the CaC03 or CaS04 to produce a bit of Ca(OH)2.  That would probably be reduced back to CaCO3 by CO2 produced from the starch upon oxidation.  Essentially, I imagine this combo serves to just speed the process of hardening and possibly a tighter bonding.  You could easily test this with a pH meter and durhams solution as Ca(OH)2 is so high (13).  This pH should then, rise and fall throughout drying process. 
  If there is a Ca(OH)2 stage, then ionic Mg (dissolved) would be reacted with producing MgO and H20.  Otherwise the electrolyte solution would just end up inside the normal durhams lattice;  making it somewhat of an ion-conductor (more or less based on electrolyte concentration).

  Now if other items are added to the equation then it changes.  Above is, of course, assuming no electrodes.  If a metal electrode is included while drying, then its' reaction should be figured.  IMPORTANT If 2 (not 1) electrodes are included AND are NOT of the same material, then the electric potential of the (now charged) solution MUST be figured (.5-.7v here).  This is key.  If we add a single Al electrode to the first equation, it's pretty much similar;  since Al is lower in reactivity as compared to Ca and Mg, both would be reacted before Al and no change.  If we however, were to add a second Carbon electrode;  we now have a net charge difference on the surface of Al and C.   Now, in addition to a normal molecular charge based reaction, we have a electrical based reaction to consider as well.  Cations and Anions that would normally be compelled to attract to each other, now are attracted towards electrodes. 

  As I've said I'm not some graduate anything, just try to learn and have had some good opportunities.  I suppose AS plays a role in learning quicker maybe, but not sure.  I'm very familiar with water chemistry, carbonate chemistry, Ph, TDS, ORP, etc.  I had a marine aquarium store and learned a bunch there. 
Sidetracking, sorry....  At any rate, a good example for the 2 electrodes (since I can't say what all would be produced) would be to try it in your Al and Epsom water you mentioned.  If you still have that around and wet, try putting another electrode in (to create a potential) with it for a while.  You could see then, if .7v is enough potential to cause oxidation / reduction and alter the Al.  I suppose you could put some durhams in (not enough to dry) another test to see then what else was produced.  Though, it's "wet" for such a short time, i can't imagine much being produced;  so prolly not needed.  Having said all that, I'd still add at least the second electrode after hardening (if you want to ensure only molecular charge interaction).

Poop, I wasn't wanting to jabber, sigh.  I apologize again. 

What I wanted to post was just some pics of the electrolyte mix I used in the gypsum cells dried (no plaster).  I wanted to do this as an additional way of determining interaction of the salts alone.  Since crystal formation can be helpful in indication of the final dried salts, I'd left some of the electrolyte mix dry to see.  So to refresh, this is 1/4 Substitute : 1 Alum : 1 Table salt (which was chosen for highest V and Ma of all salt combos with Mg C electrodes)

Here's the link to the page it's of pics. (100x, 200x and 400x)  I'll try to put a couple viewable. 
http://s615.photobucket.com/albums/tt239/billmckraken/Crystal%20Cell%20Stuff/
I was able to identify several crystals, which helps know interactions of just the salts.  Some were unknown, but I tried to label them all.  There were 5 main crystal types and a white material (prolly not crystalline) that I couldn't magnify enough to see any crystal formation.  The MOST abundant crystal was a square pyramid.

EDIT: suppose I didn't say  this was set on a glass plate to air dry when I made the gypsum cells (7 days ago?) today it is just fully dried. R/O water 30ppm

Image1: pyramidal
Image2: pyramidal close up
Image3: Alum Crystal
Image4: 2 unknown probably (sodium sulfate, potassium sulfate, or aluminum chloride) 2 different salts though

[triffid]

I put together about 30 more cells made with pennies and aluminum foil and a thin paste made from body powder,epsom salts and morton salt sub.Cornstarch and silica is in the body powder.The body powder did not really want to mix with the water.But I went ahead and I found a pair of tweezers to dip the pieces of paper into the paste.That made that part of the work less messy for my fingers.I made sure every piece of paper had some starch on it.I made each cell by itself.I hope they dry out and then maybe I can stack them?Most of the time I could get .5 volts from the cells.I had one that gave me .6 volts.I tried to see what the difference was could not see any.Remember these are all wet voltages.I stacked about 5 cells together when wet and got a voltage of just one cell.I also am letting some pieces of wet paper dry by itself
in contact with no electrodes.To see if I can get any voltages later.triffid

[triffid]

PB,I respect you anyway even if you are not a graduate.You show an astonishing knowledge of chemistry and I welcome you to this thread.
You figured out why vitamin C turned the magnesium strips brown.I do have a BS in chemistry from a four year college and only have a kitchen to work in.I got that BS in 1978.I am retired and want to make electricity from zero point.I have done so in the milliwatt range.I worked in a few labs when I was younger but without a higher degree which I tried twice to get.You just end up working for someone else who has a PHD.I went to interview for one oil company lab job where the guy interviewing me did not have a face.It had been blown off two years before in an explosion in that very same lab.That turned me off for working for oil companies.triffid

[PhiChaser]

I believe the starch will react some with the CaC03 or CaS04 to produce a bit of Ca(OH)2.  That would probably be reduced back to CaCO3 by CO2 produced from the starch upon oxidation.  Essentially, I imagine this combo serves to just speed the process of hardening and possibly a tighter bonding.  You could easily test this with a pH meter and durhams solution as Ca(OH)2 is so high (13).  This pH should then, rise and fall throughout drying process. 
  If there is a Ca(OH)2 stage, then ionic Mg (dissolved) would be reacted with producing MgO and H20.  Otherwise the electrolyte solution would just end up inside the normal durhams lattice;  making it somewhat of an ion-conductor (more or less based on electrolyte concentration).
  Now if other items are added to the equation then it changes.  Above is, of course, assuming no electrodes.  If a metal electrode is included while drying, then its' reaction should be figured. IMPORTANT
If 2 (not 1) electrodes are included AND are NOT of the same material, then the electric potential of the (now charged) solution MUST be figured (.5-.7v here).  This is key.  If we add a single Al electrode to the first equation, it's pretty much similar;  since Al is lower in reactivity as compared to Ca and Mg, both would be reacted before Al and no change.  If we however, were to add a second Carbon electrode;  we now have a net charge difference on the surface of Al and C.   Now, in addition to a normal molecular charge based reaction, we have a electrical based reaction to consider as well.  Cations and Anions that would normally be compelled to attract to each other, now are attracted towards electrodes.

Thanks for that PB! That explains why I keep thinking that two carbon electrodes are needed if you want to have current AND voltage. So the more the better? Would an aluminum case with carbon electrodes sticking out be the best configuration? I can find aluminum muffin pans easily enough (not that I want the cells that big!).
How much do you think this type of electrode can hold vA wise? I know they seem to lose voltage over time so maybe a wax 'dip' to seal them would help? I think the starch is for binding like you said. It attracts stray hydrogen? Oxygen?? Anyways, trying to keep it short...

Happy experimenting,

PC

[Peanutbutter29]

Ty Triffid for your kind comments!  Nice you have a BS, far better than myself.  Lol with the oil company job;  heh, wonder if that was karma saying "Noooooo". .  I do hope I'm not too much of a pain in the neck for all. 

Only other thing I've done was to test some of the pieces collected from the cell heated on a gas burner.  There was a small amount that was heated into the 650 range and turned solid;  and did not dissolve during the electrolysis after.  They were separated and left to dry, but let me know how to make the  superheated cell (essentially the same material).  At any rate I tested a piece with the meter and probes only, so same electrodes.  I had no clue that the camera was too high, but I think you can see most things.  I show it's very hard and I break a piece to see a dense black crystalline center.
It shows polarity from one side to the other, it will increase voltage with agitation (was moving the piece on the table, can see).  I also wet the cell, I'm so upset I was off centered, but used only 1/3 of a drop.  You will see me raise the piece up to the camera and you can see the dark brown area is wet (about half of the surface).  It will wick the water readily though, prolly capillary I would guess.  Anyway, shows voltage wet and polarity still exists;  however moving on the table  (agitation) no longer increased the voltage.  Anyway mostly trivial, but polar, agitation V rise and identical electrodes (probes from meter)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRm8h0jPcUU&context=C4b46ce0ADvjVQa1PpcFPFfx6ZklIUC1rsLOrQVBXU4ajj1gGHw24=

Thanks, PB

Edit: @ phi you posted as I was writing, lol.  One pair of electrodes should be fine in a cell I guess and your suggestion is a good one!  An Al type shell with your Carbon center!  Aren't the cases on some electrolytic caps a little Aluminum cup?  Maybe fold foil over a rod as a jig?  for size it's hard to say I  guess, but it would seem;  Overall connective medium conductivity plays a role, e.g. ability to pass a charge.  This would seem to apply whether looking chemically, electrically, or even crystals drawing specific frequencies from ambient.  It would seem that might be the largest damper on amperage in current cells.  Since Ions and even water carry a charge I'll be hard to not gain benefit from water;  even though not necessarily required.
  You may try a cell with fibrous coating (paper, filter, etc) over your electrodes too.  Just grind it into some graphite or carbon powder.  The intent here being ONLY to increase the surface area of contact for the electrodes;  though it will act as an ion separator too.  I would expect a current increase from this step alone of 2-3x over none used.  Paper should allow a higher connective medium electrolyte level without, necessarily, a proportional increase in oxidation or reduction.
  Another possibility would even be to use a powder for the sacrificial / oxidative electrode.  (Aluminum in yours if paired with C)  That too can increase surface area of contact.