Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?

[johnny874]

I followed along with Fletcher's material from the Bessler wheel site,  until he got to the bouyant weight added to the fluid. It seemed to me that the buoyant weight would have an effect on the balance/weighting of the fluid. I was wrong. I balanced a 4 gallon pot, 3/4 filled with water, on a 3/4" nut (tippy) and pushed a tall (empty) one gallon pitcher down, and around in the pot slowly. It had no effect on the balance of the pot.

So moving right along, has anyone attempted a build yet?

I've had my own project I've been working on. Got banned from besslerwheel because they considered it fraudulent.
Don't think they really support Bessler's work.

[fletcher]

The crux is to find a verifiable experiment to prove that a mass/piston analogy pressurizing an enclosed fluid acts & behaves just like a buoyancy force weight force equilibrium as per Archimedes volume displacement method.

Hi Fletcher,

Could I replace your two mass pistons with tubes filed with water? with all internal space connected together of course.

[[[ ... I was just thinking that the tube that is vertical from center up has no pressure applied to its end cap and the one that is vertical from center straight down transfers the full system pressure to its end cap.  With no air in the system there would also be no change in the CoM and leave only the applied pressure differences ... ]]]

Or does this change your parameters?

Hi Webby ..

You got it - the parameters are flexible because this is a concept presented here for investigation - btw the pistons I envisage have a far greater density than say a water fluid interior.

[fletcher]

Hi Fletcher,

An interesting approach, so let me summarize my unbiased understanding and conclusion from a critical angle.  If you feel different, don't hesitate to state you counter response

Presented
We have an enclosed liquid that has no room to spare with 2 weighted floats in opposing positions (one floats, other does not & visa versa).  [Correct] For the buoyancy to assert itself, a certain amount of compressibility must be present in the liquid to allow a certain amount of submersion (amount of compressibility is allowed by a certain amount of dissolved air in the liquid and a practical expansion diaphragm at the center of the see/saw). [Near enough]  The massed buoyancy intrusion will create a pressure in the liquid that will force the other mass to "out position".  [No – gravity positions it, pressure only assists after it is thru about 3 o'cl] The different positions of the mass floats will change the balance of liquid in the see/saw every time near the horizontal position. [No – the mass of the liquid & the CoM of the liquid remains the same for intents & purposes – it is a flywheel analogue – the buoyed mass on the ascending side has its mass & inertial effects shifted to the CoR [it is unhitched from the wagon]]

Static Analysis
The shown "massed float buoyancy" from my view has not much to do with buoyancy.


[I disagree – this is the crux of the matter & why I am attempting to prove or disprove the concept with an experimental approach which would clear the road block to shifting CoM & inertia effects as per normal Archimedes displacement buoyancy]


No matter how you take it, the vertical mass/float movement is a direct result of gravity. [Correct – gravity acceleration acts on the mass which pressurizes the liquid & the pressure in the liquid pushes back with an equal force] [/color]The liquid is presenting an opposing counter force because it has nowhere to expand to. [Correct]  [/color]You call it a buoyancy if its limits the sink travel, but I see it as a direct gravity force. [Partially correct – buoyancy is an artefact of gravity however the buoyancy force as I call in this concept is a result of pressure differential & not liquid displacement] [/color]The limit of how much the float mass can penetrate the liquid is determined by float/mass gravity weight and counter pressure produced by the compressibility of the confined liquid (this also includes the force required to position the other mass float outward and the vacated space this produces) [No – it doesn't penetrate the fluid because liquid can't rise up the sides of the piston, it is liquid sealed, say using ceramic sleeves & ceramic piston head, for example]
When the liquid now moves to the right [No, it doesn't or if so it is so small amount of displacement to be negligible], there is some energy applied by gravity to move the liquid from left to right instigated by the 2 mass float movements (you could say the 2 mass/float plungers are akin to 2 hydraulic pistons  in series with a liquid in between). [Correct, but these pistons don't move, they just have the ability/freedom to move & at micro levels they would – remember the compression chamber allows for thermal expansion & contraction of enclosures etc]

Having now more liquid mass on the right side [No, see above][/color], the see-saw will start to tilt to the right and the turn cycle begins. At the end of 90dgr movement, max. gravity force will re-assert itself and should restart the cycle but with mass1 & 2 locations reversed [Correct]

Dynamic Analysis
Once the rotation starts, the picture changes. The centrifugal force on the liquid is your "reaction force". [No]  [/color]It will apply a force on the liquid from the center pivot outwards in both arms. [Correct] [/color]It sure will do its best to nullify this horizontal liquid movement that originates in the left arm. [Incorrect assumptions]  This also means that this reaction force will prevent the "sinking" of the left mass/float, because of the pressure increase in the outer extremity. (pressure is no longer equal everywhere) [Incorrect – pressure was never equal everywhere – in fact I rely on pressure levels forming that are linear & volume & density not changing - Centrifugal Force is Centripetal Force – it is an acceleration of v^2/r – this means that velocity has a far greater effect on Cp than radius – any pressure increase at the extremity's helps the equilibrium of forces between the lhs piston & the liquid N.B. the piston mass has a greater density than the liquid – Cp acts inwards to center while at 9 o'cl gravity force acts downward  N.B. the Cp force in the liquid is a result of hydrogen bonding & covalency etc that effectively make the molecules hold hands, they are connected & they communicate – additionally since the enclosure is limited in volume & rigid in shape then the mass of liquid can't take up any shape or volume other than the enclosure allows

In the right arm, when rotating, the water movement/pressure from the left is not needed, because the centrifugal force has taken over and will try to keep the mass/float in the "out" position for as long it can. [See comments above – at 3 & 9 o'cl the force [in Newtons] due to Cp & g is the same – at 12 ocl the Cp force is less because it is opposed by g, at 6 o'cl the Cp force & g combine] so the combined force is greatest.

Conclusion
As with any of the Bessler type devices,  the centrifugal force is your counter force of the symmetry and in the end will prevent anything more than a very slow movement with a weak force. You can call it a marginal condition = slow static condition. [Incorrect – slow & weak, yes, comparatively - that's why you have the piston masses at a large radius & the rotation rate slow – it is scalable]

Why? Because when you look at the problem in a singular dimension, a singular frame reference, in this view, all relationships are referenced to each other (the reason for symmetry, the reason for Seamus existence). I feel in a way sorry for this conclusion, I always try to be as objective as possible. I am open to be refuted with a good counter argument, no hard feelings [None taken, however you have made a number of incorrect assumptions IMO – I'm sure everybody has opinions]

Solution
When thinking in a multi dimension, multiple frames, multiple movies on the same screen.  A Einstein type time view, akin to the neighbor train in the station departing. Here the relationship in one dimension does not reference the other dimensional frames for its existence.  Because of that, the symmetry is broken. 
  Ask the only person who knows but has been called too many bad names under the red sun on this site, akin to being FRIED to a sizzle for trying to tell everybody,  believe me, he got the answer ! Ask Wayne Travis  !!,  he will tell you how it is done !!   

Regards, Michel

[Red_Sunset]

The different positions of the mass floats will change the balance of liquid in the see/saw every time near the horizontal position.
* Fletcher reply#1: [No – the mass of the liquid & the CoM of the liquid remains the same for intents & purposes – it is a flywheel analogue – the buoyed mass on the ascending side has its mass & inertial effects shifted to the CoR [it is unhitched from the wagon]]

Fletcher,
I think my perceived understanding of the cause of imbalance has still some way to go  ...
Sorry, I missed that subtle detail in your previous post, and that is maybe the cause of my confusion.

"« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2012, 11:09:52 PM »
then effectively the mass's PE is absorbed into the liquids increased energy density - I don't have a better term for it at the minute but it conveys an idea."

Just to test my understanding, are you saying that when a piston weight applies pressure to a fluid, becomes an integral uniform part of that fluid PE?  Even when having different densities?
Would it be correct to think that you are also implying that the PE incorporation also changes the gravity attraction distribution, meaning that in the left hand arm,  the PistonWeight+fluid will become one uniform densisty gravity object and thereby shifting the CoG more inward to the center, in comparison with the right side, where the fluid and PistonWeight are looked upon as separate gravity entities with its own densities ?

An alternative view, The piston, is a pressure vessel wall with a certain amount of flex, it is a pure pressure situation, rather than a buoyancy situation.  At least in terms of organization of physics, your model and pistons are hydraulic systems, not a hydro buoyancy system.  I believe that the 2 hydraulic piston model separated by pressurized fluid would serve as a good model to analyze the desired effect. The fulcrum can be added later.

This is obvious not clear to me yet at this point, some more explaining would be in order to further the understanding of the desired effect.  A basic force drawing (before and after, the way you see it) would help a great lot ( a couple of arrows in relation to the fluid and mass)

Regards, Michel

[fletcher]

That is close enough Red.

Forget about whether it will turn a complete revolution or not - that is incidental to the proposition.

Here is the link to the other forum where I am discussing it also.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=104925#104925

I include a couple of drawings in a series for you & others to work thru - the hypothesis is that buoyancy force is solely dependent on pressure differentials & not on volume displacement & uniform density doctrine.

The proposition briefly is that in a symmetrical system as described that mass 1 induces pressure increase in the structure fluid [increases energy density] - when that pressure is vectored into thrust [up-force against the piston face] then mass 1 is effectively buoyed & its weight force is in equilibrium with the up-thrust force from the fluid pressure beneath it [the vertical component of gravity] - this is akin to buoyancy - because of Pascal's Principle mass 1 creates the internal pressure increase by applying its weight force in the form of pressure increase which is spread to all parts of the fluid equally - therefore the proposition is that the structure will have one centralized position where vector forces act & that will be at or near the Center of Rotation [as opposed to the downward side where mass 2 has no influence on the fluid pressure relationship so is independent of it] - furthermore, since the entire structure is symmetrical & designed to rotate all parts have a degree of freedom of movement - at any stage whilst in motion the internal fluid pressure against the piston head will be in flux, waxing & waning at the small level, so some lag occurs & equilibrium of forces can not be established unless it is stopped.