9/11 truth movement topic

[madsen]

Yes, I can confirm that translation of the 'la Stampa' article, but it carries less weight with me because, as I said, it comes nearly a year before the article in 'la Corriere', which does not mean I dismiss it completely, but people can change their views or come across new information in a year.

I agree that the 'God bless Osama' line is the most 'tongue in cheek' in the article, but my interpretation of this was that he was saying essentially 'how handy Osama was as a scapegoat'. As I say, the jury is still out on this article until I can get a better perspective from an Italian speaker.

The Berlusconi accusation is indeed 'outrageous', but does that mean it's untrue. I'm not prepared to dismiss an accusation on that basis. For example 'Hitler burnt the Reichstag? What an outrageous claim!' As Hitler said, 'the bigger the lie, the more likely people are to believe it'

I can't really make any further useful comment without a better understanding of the translation. We could do with several independent perspectives on this. As I hope you can understand, I won't accept a single 'debunker's' translation as gospel, just as I wouldn't accept a single translation from someone on the other side of the fence as gospel. Anyone know any Italians?

To bring in one more element here, have you watched the Aaron Russo link yet? This guy was most definitely not joking in what he said, evidenced by the fact that he was organising protest marches on Washington before his death. I bring this up because it seems to confirm an element of the article in 'la Corriere' quite closely, which is something that had skipped my attention until revisiting it. Russo claims that he was told by his known friend 'Nick Rockefeller' that there would be a 'major incident' and it would be used as a justification to go into Afghanistan and Iraq, and a perpetual war with Afghanistan would be maintained off the back of it.

Fair enough---hopefully someone with knowledge of Italian will help out.  One other part of Cossiga's statement that I think was meant to be tongue in cheek was this:

"we know that the video is fake because Osama admits that he was the mind behind the attacks against the twin towers, while all the democratic parties in Europe and USA know very well that the attack was organised by CIA and Mossad"

It would be quite a flip-flop for him to go from thinking an inside job was impossible, to claiming all "democratic parties" in Europe and the USA know it was an inside job (which sounds like an exaggeration---for better or worse, I think the "official theory" is still accepted by a majority of people, at least in the USA).  Just one more thing to consider if we get some translation help here.

I'll look at the Russo material later this evening if at all possible, and try to respond to the countdown article.

[madsen]

@Nomen luni:  I just viewed the Aaron Russo video.  Do you know if this Nick Rockefeller is confirmed to be related to "the" Rockefellers?  I couldn't find any information on that. 

I'll keep Russo's story in mind, but since there apparently isn't any independent verification, I don't feel I can give it a great deal of weight.  A few things about the video raise questions in my mind:


Why was Russo hanging out with this guy who wanted to chip everyone and enslave the world?  I can't imagine wanting to be friends with such a person.

Is this the first time Russo has told this story?  Why did he wait 6 years?

Given the fact that he's talking about the murder of 3000 people, his mood seems a bit inappropriate.  Why all the laughing and smiling?


So, like I said, I'll keep this in mind, but I don't find him to be particularly credible.

[madsen]

@Nomen luni:  I also read the "countdown" video and article last night.  I don't really doubt that he's sincere, and obviously if there really was a countdown before the building collapsed, then that would be strong evidence for the demolition theory.  Here are some questions that I have:

1)  Why did McPadden wait 6 years to tell his story?  If I were him and thought it was a genuine countdown, I would have given my information to the media immediately. 

2)  The accompanying article says that:

hundreds of emergency rescue personnel were told over bullhorns that Building 7, a 47 story skyscraper adjacent the twin towers that was not hit by a plane yet imploded symmetrically later in the afternoon on 9/11, was about to be "pulled" and that a 20 second radio countdown preceded its collapse.

Why is it that just a few "countdown" witnesses have come forward?

4)  Why were the hundreds of rescue personnel warned of the imminent demolition, when such a warning immediately outs Silverstein (or someone) as a mass murderer?

5)  This is probably the most important point---does anyone here not agree that the firefighters suspected ahead of time that the building was going to collapse? (Source)

Yeah, we had to pull everybody back. It was very difficult. We had to be very forceful in getting the guys out. They didn’t want to come out. There were guys going into areas that I wasn’t even really comfortable with, because of the possibility of secondary collapses. We didn’t know how stable any of this area was. We pulled everybody back probably by 3 or 3:30 in the afternoon. We said, this building is going to come down, get back. It came down about 5 o’clock or so, but we had everybody backed away by then. At that point in time, it seemed like a somewhat smaller event, but under any normal circumstances, that’s a major event, a 47-story building collapsing. It seemed like a firecracker after the other ones came down, but I mean that’s a big building, and when it came down, it was quite an event. But having gone through the other two, it didn’t seem so bad. But that’s what we were concerned about. We had said to the guys, we lost as many as 300 guys. We didn’t want to lose any more people that day. And when those numbers start to set in among everybodyâ€Ã,¦ My feeling early on was we weren’t going to find any survivors. You either made it out or you didn’t make it out. It was a cataclysmic event.

[madsen]

It's all coming down to interpretation again.

I read the entire thread on the that debunking site regarding the article in 'la Corriere'. After a long discussion, there was no convincing, conclusive outcome one way or the other. It seems that even in Italy, there are two schools of thought as to whether the article was serious or not.

You see Russo laughing and say it leads you to question his credibility. I see him laughing in disbelief at Rockefeller's psychopathic attitude. I read the article in 'la Corriere' and take it at face value (although, granted, I am still investigating). You immediately dismiss it as a joke based on something you read on one website. I notice you find it innapropriate when Russo laughs a couple of times (in what I think is disbelief), but have no problem attributing Cossiga's piece as a big joke, a joke based on a real tape (real as in the tape where Berlusconi is mentioned exists, notwithstanding that it may have been faked), a joke based on an event where thousands died.

It's not that I think Russo is "joking", it's that I find his demeanor totally inappropriate to the topic, which leads me to wonder what's going on in his head. 

I don't defend Cossiga's use of sarcasm either---my sense of humor is as dark as anyone's but I think what he said is a bit over the line for a public official.

Did you even look? I can convince myself he is:
http://www.nicholasrockefeller.org

I saw that site, but although it has information on other Rockefellers, it doesn't say specifically he is related to them. Who owns the domain name?  For some reason, I'm not having success using whois to find out who it's registered to now. 

ETA:  There is a post at JREF which allegedly gives domain registration for www.nicholasrockefeller.net:

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3923359&postcount=47 

Supposedly the registration info is the same as the .org site, but I can't verify this.  If the information is correct, then the domain name was created just a few months after the Russo article came out, oddly enough. 

Why did McPadden wait 6 years to tell his story?

Please provide me something that verifies the assertion that he did.

I actually don't have any such evidence, so fair enough.  Based on the Watson article, I would conclude that McPadden's story wasn't widely reported until last year.  It's quite remarkable that even though there were hundreds of witnesses to the countdown, we knew of only a few 6 years after the event.   

In response to your quote from Chief Hayden, maybe witnessing the first two steel framed buildings in history to collapse 'from fire' on the same day made him nervous that another may come down? Of course, I can only speculate on what may have been going through his mind, just as you can only speculate, and speculation is pretty useless.

I agree that we can't tell exactly what he was thinking, but it seems multiple sources confirm that there was concern the building was going to collapse.  And it wasn't just because of the unexpected collapse of the two towers earlier---it was also based on observations of the building itself as the fire burned:

Firefighters using transits to determine whether there was any movement in the structure were surprised to discover that is was moving. The area was evacuated and the building collapsed later in the afternoon of Sept. 11.

[madsen]

Okay, so far we have:

Silverstein- you think 'pull it'...[building comes down] means 'pull the firemen out'
Cossiga article- you think he's joking.
Russo- you think he not credible because he laughed, and you're suspicious that Nick Rockefeller is not one of 'The         
           Rockefellers', even though he's also a member of the exclusive CFR according to his site, or in any case that
           nickRockefeller.org may be a manufactured website to support the Russo story? (That IS a
           conspiracy theory, by the way)

I definitely am suspicious of that nicholasrockefeller website for several reasons.  It might be legitimate, controlled either by him or a trusted associate, but I can't tell at this point.  I also certainly wouldn't conclude that anyone on the CFR named Rockefeller is one of "the Rockefellers". 

Countdown witnesses - you don't believe them.

I do believe, as McPadden said, that the rescue workers were warned to move away from the building at some point, as that's consistent with the evidence that suspicions were that the building was going to come down.  Whether there literally was a countdown that was timed precisely with the collapse of the building, I'm not sure.  If that were the case, as I said that would be pretty convincing evidence for a controlled demolition. 

Okay, so what about Minetta? Is he joking, lying, or is it just that I have totally misunderstood what he's saying? Or is he a fictional character?

I believe he's a real person    I started to look at his testimony a few days ago, but got sidetracked.  I'll look at it later today if at all possible.

I can understand your concern that a lot of witnesses didn't 'come out sooner', but if they're ignored by the mainstream media, maybe it would take a long time for their stories to circulate? It's like the Cossiga story. I would have thought it would have caused a storm in the media, even if it was an outrageous joke, but no; silence. I find the media silence deafening.

I found the lack of English stories concerning the Cossiga matter a little strange as well.  I was expecting at least to find a brief mention of it here and there, but there's basically nothing.  I can only guess that the Italian correspondents for the mainstream news organizations understood Cossiga's sarcasm immediately, and therefore decided that it was not a major news story, as it would have been assuming he was being sincere.

Where was the coverage of Cynthia McKinney's calls for further investigation of 911 and the concerns she raised. Surely that would be a 'scoop'?

I remember hearing about McKinney's concerns very clearly, and I am not a big follower of the alternative press.

I'm interested in that last quote of yours. What's the link for that?

The quote about the firefighters using the transit is taken from the caption on the third picture down on this page:

http://www.firehouse.com/911/magazine/towers.html

It's about 1/3 of the way down the page.