Agha Waqar running Car on his HHO Fuel Cell

[tinman]

@tinman sometimes just one spark is all it takes brother.no disrespect,ive seen enough to know what im talking about.@pirate a story indeed.non-fiction part of the library,but thanks anyway.

Ok ,lets do this.
You provide the spark,and i'll get the fire burning.
You give me the detailed plans for the karpen pile battery (including schematic),and i will fork out the money for the materials and build to your specifications.
This couldnt come at a better time,as the pulse motor build off has just started-and i always do a build along side all the contestant's.
I would be more than happy to put forth the worlds first "OU" pulse motor at the end of the build off. And i would even tell you to keep your $10,000 you offered me to do it.
If it work's,i will also put your name to the design on the various radio show's that we will be on after the build off is finnished-Mark knows this to be true,and you have it here in writing. This would get your career of to a flying start,and make you the money you so seek.
If you wish to keep the schematic off of the forum,then my email is sidewinder350@westnet.com.au  You can email them to me at that address,and the details remain with us until the device is working.

So what do you say profitis, interested?

[markdansie]

Hi Profitis and Tinman,
Having tested the key components of a Karpen pile in the Utah labs last year, you have to use extremely high purity lab standard metals. These are not cheap. If you have any impurities then you will see a galvanic reaction.
The following is test criteria and rational that will be required to determine if the device is either a battery or environmental energy harvesting device. It is not an overunity device.
1. You will need to test it in a Fardays's cage to rule out any EMF or RF influences.
2. I also suggest you do your testing in a hard vacuum.
3. You will need a set of scales to about 5 decimal places per gram to weight any consumption of materials or electrolyte.
4. You will need to check the metallurgy with a full analysis after a predetermined time amount of time.
5. You should also conduct at same time of the metallurgy tests have a detailed analysis of the gases sampled in the container and the electrolyte.You should also run some tests in a controlled environment where you have a static temperature and variable temperature runtime comparisons.
6. You should also get some high quality thermocouples to measure any cooling effects the device may have on the surrounding environment.


That is for starters, anything less would result in an inconclusive test.


Just some notes:
1. There are two basic theories:
     a. It is a battery that will last for many years as it has such a low load on it.
     b. It is a thermal siphon.
2. You can treat certain materials through heat and electrical polling to slowly release electricity over decades
3. You can get a used Nissan leaf battery after its effective life and it will run for decades without recharging producing a modest amount  of power (many times more than a Karpen Pile Battery). This would be at a fraction of the price.


My personnel conclusion after having run experiments first hand is very well expressed by Andrew Wiggin in a post on another forum discussing the subject:
This is a simple primary battery. Referring to it as a thermocouple or thermopile is misdirection, and there's certainly no need for zero point energy or 'quantum' effects. It's the same thing you could do with alternating disks of copper, zinc, and paper, in a bath of vinegar, but more durable. Some folks out there may remember doing things like that in grade school science class, if you had a fun teacher. [/size]You could do this with any two metals, and just about any electrolyte. In most cases such a battery degrades quickly, as the metal disks react with the electrolyte even when no electrons are flowing. Early batteries of this type were called 'plunge' batteries, because you 'plunged' the battery into the electrolyte when you needed electricity, and lifted it back out when you were done, to keep it from dissolving. This battery has cleverly worked around that by using metals that don't react quickly with the electrolyte.In this case, if the article is to be believed, it looks like the metals are gold and platinum, and the electrolyte is sulfuric acid. I think this is plausible. Both gold and platinum dissolve only very slowly in acids unless under extreme oxidizing conditions, in which case an oxidizing agent like fuming nitric acid or concentrated hydrogen peroxide oxidizes the metal and then the oxides dissolve in the acid. Those conditions aren't present in this example, so these metals are relatively inert in these conditions, and the reaction is very slow. It looks like this battery has a fair amount of cells, though I couldn't really find an image clear enough to count them. That makes coming up with a reaction rather difficult. Assuming that they're accurately reporting the 'one volt' output, (exactly one volt?) there are some places where gold and platinum are close enough to each other in the electrochemical series to make a one volt battery with twenty or thirty cells plausible. Without the battery to study, the exact construction and reaction are going to remain a mystery, and it doesn't sound like the museum has any interest in letting this be studied.It sounds like they're measuring the electrons flowing from the cell with some sort of ballistic galvomometer arranged as a motor. These draw very little current, and even then the article implies that the battery has to recharge between turns of the motor, so it has a mechanism that turns it off after each swing. This is consistant with the idea that this battery operates by very slow reactions. I see that some folks have already brought up the oxford electric bell. This is the same sort of battery, in that it has electrodes in very unreactive conditions. In that case, the electrodes are probably something quite far apart on the electrochemical series like copper and silver, and they're thin, so that there can be lots and lots of them. Similar examples have hundreds or thousands of layers. The low reactivity conditions are achieved by it being a 'dry pile' in which the electrolyte is at a very very low concentration. If I recall, the oxford electric bell produces a fairly high voltage at almost unmeasurable current. It's basically a source of 'static electricity' to run a small 'franklin's bell'. You can run a franklin's bell from the current that leaks from the screen of a television; they don't draw much current at all. The low reactivity conditions, combined with the low current draw mean that these things run 'forever'. No mystery here, and no practical power source either. You'd have trouble making either one of these light an LED.




Kind Regards
Mark

[profitis]

no phd,s here @markdansie but i,m going to have to correct you,nobody can or will prove me wrong : karpen is galvanic but not the galvanic you suggest.sorry to let you down but you wont find any correlation of faradaic current and dissolved metals under any circumstances.nor will you find any correlation of power/second and the required temperature difference needed to create it.you dont need gold, 2 platinum electrodes will do same thing.sensitive chemical tests to look for dissolved metals will come out negative you dont need a mass scale.it doesnt work under argon,helium,or nitrogen. the text-books say the metals dont react and they dont react.a nissan battery wont go well with an ipod but an ipod sized battery will.im not particulary concerned wether people think my device is overunity or not but i am concerned with commercial viability so any r&d has to focus on that.if you are willing to focus on its viability im willing to co-operate.p.s. i dont want any mention of the word overunity in public if the device meets your standards.

[profitis]

oh,i forgot.neither gold nor platinum dissolves in the powerful oxidizer nitric acid under any circumstances @ markdansie.a complexing ion has to be present eg.CI-. Btw commercial grade metals will do equaly nice as pure metals,impurity traces are oxidized out the surfaces(if they react) exposing pure metals quickly.

[markdansie]

oh,i forgot.neither gold nor platinum dissolves in the powerful oxidizer nitric acid under any circumstances @ markdansie.a complexing ion has to be present eg.CI-. Btw commercial grade metals will do equaly nice as pure metals,impurity traces are oxidized out the surfaces(if they react) exposing pure metals quickly.

That we can agree on, it depends on how accurate you want to be. The reason for the detail is we are dealing with such a low power output device, you know possible microwatts costing some large chump change.
You made some pretty bold statements about the noble metals never reacting, i would rather let the data to tell me, however I respect your opinion.
Kind Regards