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Overunity Machines Forum



Building a self looping "SMOT"

Started by elecar, October 08, 2013, 03:34:35 PM

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0 Members and 12 Guests are viewing this topic.

JouleSeeker

Nice vid, Tinman.
Along similar lines, but on a larger scale:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9BsOW6P7QM

Starting around the 8:30 mark, Gil.. does an interesting experiment.  We observe a fairly massive "roller" accelerating up the magnetic ramp from starting point A, and then INERTIA carries it past the "sticky point" to exit point B, where it goes down a ramp and effectively out of the magnetic field.

Unfortunately, the experimenter does not measure the starting height ( A) nor the height of point B.  A few simple measurements would tell us a lot.  As it stands, there is no claim of untapped energy entering the system somehow.   I would like to see the experiment re-done with careful measurements taken.  (There are a few other measurements needed as well,like the mass of the roller and the work needed to move it  into initial position.)

He does talk about working towards a looping device, but I see nothing along these lines in his later vids (which are numerous and quite interesting).

minnie

Hi,
   in all of these things there's always the ubiquitous hand. Let's see a hands free demo.
Question, I put my ball on the scale and weighed it, held my magnet above the ball and the
weight got less,is my magnet doing any work?
   I dropped my ball through a vertical plexiglass tube, I positioned my magnet so that
it retarded the fall, was my magnet doing any work?
    I put a glass of water on my scale, noted the weight and then dipped my finger into
the water, what happened?
     I watched the Tinselzed and it stopped, what happened?
                                  John.                                   

Newton II

Quote from: minnie on October 29, 2013, 10:36:39 AM

  Question, I put my ball on the scale and weighed it, held my magnet above the ball and the
weight got less,is my magnet doing any work?


Magnetic potential at any point in a magnetic field is defined as ' work done on a unit north pole to bring it from infinity to that point'.    Which means you have already done work to bring the magnet above the ball and holding it with force to balance force of attraction between ball and magnet.  The weight lost by the ball appears on your hand and you will feel that magnet has become heavier. ( you will feel the force of attraction on your hand). 

If ball jumps and sticks to the magnet,  it is only dissipating the energy which you have already done on the magnet to bring it from infinity to that point.

Quote from: minnie on October 29, 2013, 10:36:39 AM

   I dropped my ball through a vertical plexiglass tube, I positioned my magnet so that
it retarded the fall, was my magnet doing any work?



Magnet does the work by imparting additional acceleration to the falling ball  and ball falls with higher speed than under normal gravity and sticks to the magnet.    But to seperate them and take ball to the original place you have to do equal amount of work which magnet did on ball while falling.



minnie

Hi,
     thank you Newton, it appeaars as if the magnet does do some work but infact your
hand is doing the work- eventually!
                                             John.

TinselKoala

Quote from: tinman on October 29, 2013, 01:26:40 AM
(snip)

@TK
Your magnetic wind tunnels you speak of,are something we have been useing for years in our window motor builds-maglev bearings-infact any MLD shows this magnetic wind tunnel you speak of. The magnets are provoding a continual force that is equal and opposite to the force of gravity-without physical attachment-show me any other device that can do the same without any energy input.

(snip)


I think you have missed my point. The Wright brothers invented the wind tunnel as a tool to test different airfoil shapes, angles of attack and so on. I am not making an analogy between "wind" and the magnetic field. I am saying that I haven't seen anyone explore the critical features of magnets and magnetism _without_ trying to build some kind of functional apparatus. Have you ever seen anyone build a test fixture and use a force gauge to measure the relative attraction of gravity and magnetism for magnets and balls in various positions, to determine whether or not the SMOT idea is viable? That is the kind of "wind tunnel" for magnetism I mean, just one example.

When I was working on Steorn's Orbo, I constructed just such a fixture, to determine the actual relationship between applied current and the "core effect" decrease in attraction of the core to a PM, by plotting current, separation distance and force for many different kinds of toroid material. What I found was very surprising to me, and I have never seen anyone else perform such a test, not even Steorn ... so I think my knowledge of the Core Effect and its ability to drive motors may be more complete than others. I used my knowledge to select the optimum toroid material, to make a core effect motor (Orbette 2.0) and test it, even to the point of reproducing Steorn's scope displays showing the negative energy integral, "proving" that my Orbette 2.0 was doing the same things that Steorn claimed indicated OU.

That's what I mean by "wind tunnel": A system that allows you to examine the critical parameters of your idea _before_ you try to build something by trial and error. People apparently think the Wrights just slapped together a bunch of old bicycle parts and went flying. The truth is very different. For example, they had already been flying, and even soaring for sustained flights, for several years, perfecting their control system and flying skills on _kites and gliders_ before they took their best-performing _glider_ design and added a motor to it to make the first real airplane. They used the wind tunnel invention to try shapes and motions before they put anything together to take flying. They knew without doubt that a certain wind speed over their wing would provide enough lift to fly, that their control system (wing warping) would work, and that their structures could carry the strain, before they ever built anything to take out to Kill Devil Hill.

So my "wind tunnel" suggestion was to examine the particular assertion that a magnet above doesn't retard the fall of a ball in gravity. Build an apparatus that isn't an attempt to make a running SMOT, but just to test that particular bit of critical behaviour.  The things you might find out by examining the critical parts of SMOT ideas may change your position about the feasibility of the idea. Or you may discover something that makes it all possible. Without actually doing the work you will never know. Repeating the designs and experiences of hundreds of previous failures isn't really going to teach you anything much. Testing the fundamental assumptions will.

It's odd that you think repulsion or attraction of a PM isn't a "physical attachment". I know what you mean, of course, you mean non-contact. Now I'll get whacky: Gravity is not a force. It is one kind of "space warpage" that is caused by the presence of mass. Magnetism is another kind of "space warpage" that is caused by certain configurations of electric fields: moving charges within bulk material. The motion of a ball that feels both gravity (because it has mass) and the magnetic field (because its atoms have a certain electron configuration) is the result of the total warpage of space by the mass and the moving electric fields. The ball, left to its own devices, takes the route that represents the _least energy_, that is, a "geodesic" path to the local energetic (PE) minimum or "potential well".