Lenzless resonant transformer

[itsu]

Here a video of the 3th coil (about 100 turns / 1 mH) when brought in resonance around 65KHz with 5.5nF capacity (190V pp).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flMi92xcC3c&feature=youtu.be

The same as what was happening before with the prim/sec coils, now happens with the resonance of the secondary.
When this 3th coil hits resonance, the secondary bulb shows a dip meaning its pulled out of resonance.

Probably very well to be explained, so no abnormality as far as i know.

Regards Itsu

[MileHigh]

Itsu:

I haven't followed the thread but I looked at your last clip and I think that I have an explanation for why the bulb dims.  It all goes back to the preconceived notion or prejudice that resonance must be doing something positive.  A wiser person will not make any assumptions when dealing with electronics.  What I am about to tell you was determined (a.k.a. 'discovered') on Conrad's series bifilar coil test thread.  Conrad may come back at a later date with more tests, to be determined.

The issue is what is really happening when the 3rd coil + cap is excited at its resonant frequency.  We can observe that the voltage across the coil reaches a maximum.  Therefore, by definition, the current through the coil also reaches a maximum 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage.  That means that the 3rd coil + cap when excited at the resonant frequency is becoming a huge power drain on the signal generator.  In fact, when you are at resonance, the 3rd coil + cap is acting as the heaviest possible load on the setup.  So, depending what your goals are, this could be a very bad thing.

This also explains the false 'delayed Lenz effect' where when you put a load across a pickup coil + cap that is tuned to the pulse motor magnet pass frequency.  In this setup, the pickup coil is draining the maximum electrical power and turning it into heat when it is running at resonance.   When you add a load resistor across the pickup coil on the pulse motor, the power being burned off in the pickup coil + cap + load resistor goes down in comparison to the pickup coil plus cap alone.  Hence the pulse motor speeds up.  There is no such thing as the 'delayed Lenz effect.'

Going back to your test, a big chunk of the signal generator power is being drained off in the 3rd coil + cap, it's happening in the resistance of the wire itself.  The higher the current in the resonant tank, the more power burned off and turned into heat.  So it makes sense that the light bulb that is part of the regular secondary circuit dims, because the power is being 'stolen' by the 3rd coil + cap.

The moral of the story is to measure the various wire resistances of your coils and measure the RMS current flowing though the coils so that you can measure where the power is being burnt off in the circuit.  The power being burnt off in the wire of the coil always counts and it must be factored into your measurements.

MileHigh

[Jack Noskills]

Here a video of the 3th coil (about 100 turns / 1 mH) when brought in resonance around 65KHz with 5.5nF capacity (190V pp).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flMi92xcC3c&feature=youtu.be

The same as what was happening before with the prim/sec coils, now happens with the resonance of the secondary.
When this 3th coil hits resonance, the secondary bulb shows a dip meaning its pulled out of resonance.

Probably very well to be explained, so no abnormality as far as i know.

Regards Itsu

Thanks itsu, that was almost what I had in mind.


The 100 turn coil with cap should be the primary, one secondary isolated tank and on the other secondary you put load in series with cap. Result should be that primary remains in resonance when power is taken.


If result is positive, then could try with bigger capacitors ?


I am bit confused with the results here. Energy stored in a capacitor is Q*V*V. In this case V=190 and Q=5.5nf, this times 62000 gives 12 watts circulating in the tank, still it cannot light that tiny bulb. Bulb resistance seems to affect this, maybe it causes voltage to drop in capacitor and energy cannot be used ? So what we need is at least one isolated tank in the system.

[Jack Noskills]

Played with the todoid having holes, again not what I expected but a learning experience still. I made two horizontal coils and used one as primary. Results were:


I got no light out of second primary. So no looping of magnetic current occurred.
I got light from secondaries that went through the same hole but no light from other secondaries.
When I took power, nothing still in other secondaries so no feedback occurred. Seems that in this case magnetic current wants only to go against magnetic current that created it. In the iron E-I core it wanted to loop through every route. Maybe it has something to do with shape of the core. I tried to push 100+ watts at high frequency and primary blocked everything above 5000 Hz. So it is not about core saturation.


Next test is the one I originally made the holes for. Five vertical coils, first in two parts so there will be two secondary coils. One will be just LC and the other will be output with cap and this matched for 'secondary' resonance. Primary all around circumference of the toroid, not diagonally through center. This will then be similar to case with E-I core, now five coils instead of three.


I will take picture if this shows anything special.

[Farmhand]

Itsu:

I haven't followed the thread but I looked at your last clip and I think that I have an explanation for why the bulb dims.  It all goes back to the preconceived notion or prejudice that resonance must be doing something positive.  A wiser person will not make any assumptions when dealing with electronics.  What I am about to tell you was determined (a.k.a. 'discovered') on Conrad's series bifilar coil test thread.  Conrad may come back at a later date with more tests, to be determined.

The issue is what is really happening when the 3rd coil + cap is excited at its resonant frequency.  We can observe that the voltage across the coil reaches a maximum.  Therefore, by definition, the current through the coil also reaches a maximum 90 degrees out of phase with the voltage.  That means that the 3rd coil + cap when excited at the resonant frequency is becoming a huge power drain on the signal generator.  In fact, when you are at resonance, the 3rd coil + cap is acting as the heaviest possible load on the setup.  So, depending what your goals are, this could be a very bad thing.

This also explains the false 'delayed Lenz effect' where when you put a load across a pickup coil + cap that is tuned to the pulse motor magnet pass frequency.  In this setup, the pickup coil is draining the maximum electrical power and turning it into heat when it is running at resonance.   When you add a load resistor across the pickup coil on the pulse motor, the power being burned off in the pickup coil + cap + load resistor goes down in comparison to the pickup coil plus cap alone.  Hence the pulse motor speeds up.  There is no such thing as the 'delayed Lenz effect.'

Going back to your test, a big chunk of the signal generator power is being drained off in the 3rd coil + cap, it's happening in the resistance of the wire itself.  The higher the current in the resonant tank, the more power burned off and turned into heat.  So it makes sense that the light bulb that is part of the regular secondary circuit dims, because the power is being 'stolen' by the 3rd coil + cap.

The moral of the story is to measure the various wire resistances of your coils and measure the RMS current flowing though the coils so that you can measure where the power is being burnt off in the circuit.  The power being burnt off in the wire of the coil always counts and it must be factored into your measurements.

MileHigh

In all fairness MileHigh, I have been saying and showing (for almost 8 Months now) the acceleration under load effect or delayed Lenz effect is an effect of resonance and that it actually entails an increased Lenz effect that is decreased on load.

Speed up under load video  http://www.youtube.com/my_videos?o=U&pi=4

Less input with added load video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxde9qga79c

I also explained the effect using the Tesla coils showing a decreased input under load well before the motor generator experiment.

There was no need for any fancy tests to see what was happening. No need for big coils with a lot of "impedance", the effect could be got with capacitors to get resonance or a harmonic to create a lot of activity in the "Tank" as a parasitic load, and limit the available output so the tank voltage would drop like a stone when loaded even moderately.

The trick to limiting losses in a "resonant" type system is to be able to de-tune the setup to almost no input when less (activity) power is required and "tune it in" when the greater activity is required. This is more practical in a solid state setup. The "Q" of the tank determines a lot the losses in a lightly loaded setup where the activity never gets to a significant energy "burn off point" due to the light load taking that energy.

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