water powered madness

[tinman]

Tinman, there is indeed a sharp shockwave produced by the "HHO" implosion. Don't mistake this for expanding gases that can drive an engine. Also.... if you have _any_ residual gas or your "HHO" isn't quite stoichiometric, the residual gas can expand briefly.

You might not know this, but an early way of producing a nice vacuum in a sealed glass tube was to electrolyze a little water in the tube before sealing it, then after sealing, igniting the "HHO" with a little spark from some internal electrodes. The glass doesn't break if you do it right and you have a fairly good vacuum left behind.

You've got some experience with engines... so do I. I hold an FAA Aviation Airframe and Powerplant Maintenance Technician's license and I have years of experience diagnosing, repairing and overhauling aircraft piston engines, everything from 2 cylinder Franklins to 28 cylinder P&W 4360s. I was in charge of operating the new engine test cells at two major US overhaul facilities  and for some years no newly overhauled engine left the plants unless I signed off on it. Most of these are aircooled, some use water injection. I also have considerable experience with watercooled and aircooled automobile engines and believe me, if you have enough water in the oil it will not boil away, you will have chocolate milk oil. This is usually caused by cracks in the water channels that allow water into the crankcase, though, so it is continually replaced while running the engine.

TK
Having a crack in the water jacket ,is far different than running your engine on HHO.There simply isnt enough water produced from the recombination of HHO to contaminate the oil in the engine. I have had a 6.5hp engine running with a fogger unit installed for over 100 hour's now,and the oil is spotless-no sign of water in the oil. The fogger unit injects more water vapour into the engine,than HHO would ever produce. This was the very reason for this fogger setup-to see how much water is needed to contaminate the oil.This unit has water dripping out of the exaust,and still no oil contamination. An ICE can handle a lot more water than most think.

In regards to the implosion-i know that one take's place,but it  follows an explosion,and has very little force as far as hindering the running of the I.C.E-all my test have shown this to be correct. We must also remember that when running an I.C.E on HHO,we would normally have ambiant air entering the engine aswell. This prolongs the HHO burn,and also allow's for a greater expansion of gasses-this is why the timing can be set at around 2 to 4 deg ATDC-this is what i have found to be best.

[tinman]

Here is a video which clearly shows the expansion when HHO is ignited. I have also added some frame by frame pictures,that show's the expansion(explosion) taking place when pure HHO is ignited. You will note there is no orange flames in the fram by frame shot's,and this is because it is pure HHO being burnt.\

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOERuckdXSY

[centraflow]

Brad,


very well done, it shows quite a large displacement.


You could calculate the volume of displacement for the volume of gas very easily with your setup (ASTP) and would be a good ref: in the future.


If you could give me the inside diameter of the tube and the distance of displacement, also the height of gas at the top so as to calculate the volume of gas before ignition.


@TK, don't give anybody ideas that they can do what you suggest with a glass tube, very very dangerous, to be right you use a rubber ball non return valve, and yes you can get some very impressive vacuums for making electron tubes.


regards


Mike

[TinselKoala]

TK
Having a crack in the water jacket ,is far different than running your engine on HHO.There simply isnt enough water produced from the recombination of HHO to contaminate the oil in the engine. I have had a 6.5hp engine running with a fogger unit installed for over 100 hour's now,and the oil is spotless-no sign of water in the oil.

Is the exhaust sealed like Gary Hendershot mentioned? Is the engine _running on the water mist_ ?

The fogger unit injects more water vapour into the engine,than HHO would ever produce. This was the very reason for this fogger setup-to see how much water is needed to contaminate the oil.This unit has water dripping out of the exaust,and still no oil contamination. An ICE can handle a lot more water than most think.

Try plugging up the exhaust and running _only_ on water mist, like Gary was talking about.

In regards to the implosion-i know that one take's place,but it  follows an explosion,and has very little force as far as hindering the running of the I.C.E-all my test have shown this to be correct. We must also remember that when running an I.C.E on HHO,we would normally have ambiant air entering the engine aswell.

That's right, thank you for acknowledging that.... and you do realise that is NOT what I was talking about, don't you? Please look up "stoichiometric" and note that I was, and am, talking about having ONLY the gases from electrolysis, in correct proportions, without water vapor from hot electrolysis cells, in the cylinder.

This prolongs the HHO burn,and also allow's for a greater expansion of gasses-this is why the timing can be set at around 2 to 4 deg ATDC-this is what i have found to be best.

That's right, and that is exactly how water mist injection is used in big engines, as I have explained. This is NOT RUNNING ON WATER, nor is it trying to run an ICE on electrolysis HHO alone, which is what I thought we were talking about.

Your experiment is nice: it shows that gases expand when heated. It does not disprove my points. Where is your dryer? Where is the assurance in your experiment that there is only H and O in your combustion chamber? When you fire the spark the product initially is high-pressure water vapor that you could call steam, which indeed expands and does so with a fast and hard shock. Once the rapid expansion-- and cooling and condensing --- happens there is a vacuum left behind. But you can't get enough H and O into a cylinder to produce much real power unless you compress it, either by forcing it in under pressure or using the piston on a compression stroke to do it or both. What happens when you compress H and O in a hot cylinder?

You are trying to run your engine on the expansion of steam, and you would probably have better luck if you used the H and O that you are generating to make steam outside the cylinder and run it into an ordinary steam engine with proper valvulation.

It seems to me that you and many other engineers want to be able to run the ICE on either HHO or expanding-gas fuels interchangeably. They wind up using advanced sparks like you are doing because the thing simply will not run _on regular fuel_ or with residual expanding gases when timed for suction running.

But whatever. I encourage you to continue experimenting, just don't blow yourself up.


The real issue is whether or not you can run on water mist alone, as the claimants who were supposed to have their demonstration yesterday have claimed. I don't think that you can do that. Can you?

Has there been any news from Houston?

[TinselKoala]

(Sorry, that should read "retarded sparks" up above there in that last bit. )


But Yes ... Houston DOES have a problem, and now you can see fully well why there should be a penalty clause.


http://pesn.com/2014/03/12/9602454_G-G-Power-Generation-Systems_Announces_Water-Fuel-Demo/

March 16, 2014; 5 pm Mountain

I spoke with Ben just now. He said that they ran into mechanical problems and were not able to give a successful demonstration. They scrambled and tried to get a new generator to run, but it was larger than the one they had been using, so it only ran for a few seconds on the water mist (flow rate wasn't adequate) -- not long enough to be convincing.

Around 17 people showed up from around the U.S., including Alaska, and signed NDAs. He felt bad that they had gone through the time and expense of traveling to see their demo.

Ben expects to get his system running by next weekend, at which point he will shoot a private video to show those who have signed NDAs.

When I asked him if he wishes he had two generators operation for redundancy for the demo, he replied, "We are operating on a limited budget, and have to make do with what we have."

Awww.... he felt bad. Did he feel bad enough to recompense them for their useless wasted travel expenses?