Magnet Myths and Misconceptions

[allcanadian]

@Chris
I was thinking about your posts and I do agree with some of it just as I agree with some of what your critics have said. The problem I see is that most here keep changing the context for instance we are speaking of iron filings around a magnet, then a compass and finally we see an example using a coil to justify the pattern of iron filings around a permanent magnet.

In any case I think I have found part of the answer to this debate, a PM may have most of the domains aligned internally producing an external field...yes. When using a compass or iron filings to plot the field we see a pattern leaving one pole following parallel lines with the magnetic dipole to the opposite pole...yes. In fact most of what they said is correct in a conventional sense however that is not what were talking about.
Here is the validation which I believe may solve all our issues. First we are not speaking of a PM nor a coil we are interested in the external magnetic field and fundamentally we have a very big problem. I will just lay the justification out in point form for clarity.

1) A PM has two ends we call poles which have different field properties, ie North and South pole.
2) We know the pole magnetic field properties are differerent because they repel and attract one another--- logically they cannot be the same or nothing would happen.
3) As they are not the same then one field property must transition to the other field property at some point near the center point of the field.
4) Logically there can only be two possibilities: a) the fields have different properties and transition from one to the other near the field center or b)the properties of the fields are the same and it is impossible for repulsion and attractive forces to occur.
5) As we can see it is a violation of both logic and reason for anyone to imply one property or condition can change to another property of condition and not "Change" at some point within that space.
6) When something changes it takes time and space as one thing cannot instantaneously change to another thing and this is supported by conventional science and observable facts.
7) As the external field polarity does change from one to the other near the external field center then we have proven that at this point it must be both polarities occupying the same space or neither polarities during the transition within the space. We cannot say it changes but does not change ...obviously.

As we can see it is illogical that anyone would agree the pole properties are fundamentally different then state they do not change within the space between the poles. It is like saying yes it changes but no it doesn't, so yes the external field may appear parallel to the magnet in the iron filings experiment but fundamentally we know as a fact the external field changes polarity near the center region. I believe this polarity transition is why we see the external field change geometry when other methods of measurement are utilized.

On another note we have 200 years of science which proves our case---
I throw a ball up, it stops and comes down but at some point when it stops it is neither rising nor falling-- it is neither. An electron(-) couples to a proton(+) at which point the external field is considered neutral. I have a ruler with one end on the left and one end on the right but at some point exactly in the center down to the subatomic level it must be neither left nor right or both because we have already defined that it has changed (left/right) therefore it must. We have a magnet with a North field polarity and a South field polarity and at some point near the center it must be both or neither because we have already defined that it has changed therefore it must at some point. I mean I could go on for days because all our science and observations tell us this is the case, it is the foundation on which it rests.

Here is a though experiment which may explain the illusion many others are seeing. Let's take a yard long magnet with a center, a North pole on the left side of center and a South pole on the right side of center. Now let's place the long magnet center a distance from our nose and move the magnet to the left at which point we may see the North pole get weaker but the South pole get stronger. When we move the magnet to the right we see the South pole get weaker but the North pole get stronger. We can move the long magnet left or right and one pole always gets weaker in proportion to the other pole getting stronger.

Thus if our nose was a magnet or compass needle the long magnet center region could be neutral or neither North or South polarity however the compass would not perceive it and change because the compass needle magnet would see the two end poles as equally strong. The compass does not align with the weakest field strength but the strongest so of course it must always point towards the poles regardless of whether the field changes at the center or not. The argument that the compass needle should point towards a lack of field strength seems kind of absurd in my opinion. The strongest pole always couples to the strongest pole which is what the compass is showing us nothing more.
AC

[MileHigh]

Here's a goodie!  I love the Google image search!  Piracy on the high seas!  lol

[EMJunkie]

You have pointed to many references:  None that support your loopy ideas with any reliable evidence.  The references that have included reliable evidence have either had nothing to do with your claims or have refuted them.These sort of silly comments all betray that you are just putting on a show.What you call fact is sheer fantasy.

MarkE - It looks like a copy Paste? Anything new to add or is this your Scientific Rebuttal? Anything to add to this debate of value?

[EMJunkie]

Here's a goodie!  I love the Google image search!  Piracy on the high seas!  lol

MileHigh - I have to admit, you're light years ahead of MarkE! Keep up the good work!

[MarkE]

@Chris
I was thinking about your posts and I do agree with some of it just as I agree with some of what your critics have said. The problem I see is that most here keep changing the context for instance we are speaking of iron filings around a magnet, then a compass and finally we see an example using a coil to justify the pattern of iron filings around a permanent magnet.

In any case I think I have found part of the answer to this debate, a PM may have most of the domains aligned internally producing an external field...yes. When using a compass or iron filings to plot the field we see a pattern leaving one pole following parallel lines with the magnetic dipole to the opposite pole...yes. In fact most of what they said is correct in a conventional sense however that is not what were talking about.
Here is the validation which I believe may solve all our issues. First we are not speaking of a PM nor a coil we are interested in the external magnetic field and fundamentally we have a very big problem. I will just lay the justification out in point form for clarity.

1) A PM has two ends we call poles which have different field properties, ie North and South pole.
2) We know the pole magnetic field properties are differerent because they repel and attract one another--- logically they cannot be the same or nothing would happen.
3) As they are not the same then one field property must transition to the other field property at some point near the center point of the field.
4) Logically there can only be two possibilities: a) the fields have different properties and transition from one to the other near the field center or b)the properties of the fields are the same and it is impossible for repulsion and attractive forces to occur.
5) As we can see it is a violation of both logic and reason for anyone to imply one property or condition can change to another property of condition and not "Change" at some point within that space.
6) When something changes it takes time and space as one thing cannot instantaneously change to another thing and this is supported by conventional science and observable facts.
7) As the external field polarity does change from one to the other near the external field center then we have proven that at this point it must be both polarities occupying the same space or neither polarities during the transition within the space. We cannot say it changes but does not change ...obviously.

As we can see it is illogical that anyone would agree the pole properties are fundamentally different then state they do not change within the space between the poles. It is like saying yes it changes but no it doesn't, so yes the external field may appear parallel to the magnet in the iron filings experiment but fundamentally we know as a fact the external field changes polarity near the center region. I believe this polarity transition is why we see the external field change geometry when other methods of measurement are utilized.

On another note we have 200 years of science which proves our case---
I throw a ball up, it stops and comes down but at some point when it stops it is neither rising nor falling-- it is neither. An electron(-) couples to a proton(+) at which point the external field is considered neutral. I have a ruler with one end on the left and one end on the right but at some point exactly in the center down to the subatomic level it must be neither left nor right or both because we have already defined that it has changed (left/right) therefore it must. We have a magnet with a North field polarity and a South field polarity and at some point near the center it must be both or neither because we have already defined that it has changed therefore it must at some point. I mean I could go on for days because all our science and observations tell us this is the case, it is the foundation on which it rests.

Here is a though experiment which may explain the illusion many others are seeing. Let's take a yard long magnet with a center, a North pole on the left side of center and a South pole on the right side of center. Now let's place the long magnet center a distance from our nose and move the magnet to the left at which point we may see the North pole get weaker but the South pole get stronger. When we move the magnet to the right we see the South pole get weaker but the North pole get stronger. We can move the long magnet left or right and one pole always gets weaker in proportion to the other pole getting stronger.

Thus if our nose was a magnet or compass needle the long magnet center region could be neutral or neither North or South polarity however the compass would not perceive it and change because the compass needle magnet would see the two end poles as equally strong. The compass does not align with the weakest field strength but the strongest so of course it must always point towards the poles regardless of whether the field changes at the center or not. The argument that the compass needle should point towards a lack of field strength seems kind of absurd in my opinion. The strongest pole always couples to the strongest pole which is what the compass is showing us nothing more.
AC

EMJUNKIE has been arguing:

1) That there is a Bloch wall across the middle of a dipole magnet.  A Bloch wall slicing anywhere through a dipole perpendicular to it as EMJUNKIE insists he measures with magnetic paper in his video would require a different orientation of the magnetic domains on either side of the wall.  It is well established that in a strongly magnetized sample, most of the domains are in common alignment.  There is no Bloch wall between adjacent domains that share the same alignment.

2) That the field external to a dipole magnet loops not contiguously from pole to pole, but from each pole to the dipole center.  He cites the non-peer reviewed junk publication from Cheniere as his source, despite that fantasy being completely discredited by countless reliable sources including Dr. Lewin's MIT physics lecture series.  This bit of fantasy would require observations that are not seen, including a strong field curl at the mid point of a dipole. 

3) He insists that iron filings do not map field lines around a magnet accurately because he claims their presence alters the field contours radically.  Mathematically this is a ridiculous claim.  Practically it is doubly stupid because non other than EMJUNKIE uses magnetic paper to try and map magnetic fields.  If you are not familiar with magnetic paper, it contains grains of highly permeable nickle flakes suspended in fluid cells formed between two sheets of plastic.  IOW it is iron filings held captive.