Magnet Myths and Misconceptions

[MarkE]

MarkE - It looks like a copy Paste? Anything new to add or is this your Scientific Rebuttal? Anything to add to this debate of value?

LOL, you have shot yourself in the feet so many times already it is a wonder that you have any way to stand.

[MileHigh]

AC:

How about we look at magnetic fields like this:  The field lines travel in circles, or closed loops to be more precise.  When you are on a circle, there is no start or end.  There is no distinguishing boundary of any sort.  When you move around the circle, sometimes you are moving away from an observer, and sometimes you are moving towards the observer.  This moving away and moving towards does not represent two distinct entities.  So we arbitrarily can define "north" as the field direction pointing towards you, or "south" as the field direction pointing away from you.  But as you can see, there is only one field.

When we make coils and stuff like that we are distorting the normally circular field into some rubbery bunch of spaghetti strands.  But ultimately it is still a circular field at heart.  It's ONE field, period.  So there is no "transition point," ever.  It may appear to be like that but when you step back and simplify, it's still a circle with no start and no end, but it does have the property of direction.

So in a way it's all a giant tempest in a teapot to "worry" about north and south magnetic fields.  There is only one magnetic field.  That's the "great leap forward" when you realize that.

Going back to basics:  The magnetic field around a long straight wire looks like a set of coaxial cylinders progressively larger in diameter and weaker as the diameter gets larger.  When we put two current-carrying wires next to each other, then you have a force between the two wires.

So all of the electromagnets, motors, pulse motors, and so on, are just that strait wire contorted into different shapes producing a contorted, but ultimately circular, magnetic field.  And from the two parallel wires we know that when two separate magnetic fields interact they can produce a mutual force between each other.  So you start with "one" and contort it all over the place, and you still are left with "one."

It's all just one big bowl of spaghetti where the special feature is that the spaghetti is all loops.

MileHigh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjLXyqD3lvI

[allcanadian]

@MH

How about we look at magnetic fields like this:  The field lines travel in
circles, or closed loops to be more precise.  When you are on a circle, there is
no start or end.  There is no distinguishing boundary of any sort.  When you
move around the circle, sometimes you are moving away from an observer, and
sometimes you are moving towards the observer.  This moving away and moving
towards does not represent two distinct entities.  So we arbitrarily can define
"north" as the field direction pointing towards you, or "south" as the field
direction pointing away from you.  But as you can see, there is only one field.

You know ten years ago I would have agreed with all you have said completely as they say by the book, five years ago I may have found some critiques and we have been down that road however at present I have no idea what your talking about. I have been down this road your on and I always ended up right back where I started so I stopped doing it. I found the answers I was looking for and they are not like yours, let's just leave it at that because there is no going back nor do I wish to.
To be honest just after I could finally look up to the stars and understand all that's going on that I could never see or understand I lost my faith in humanity. There is no way out of this quagmire, no rainbow, no difference in anything I could do that matters. Just enjoy the ride, come here every so often and mix it up with you guys, howl at the moon, lol.

AC

[EMJunkie]

@Chris
I was thinking about your posts and I do agree with some of it just as I agree with some of what your critics have said. The problem I see is that most here keep changing the context for instance we are speaking of iron filings around a magnet, then a compass and finally we see an example using a coil to justify the pattern of iron filings around a permanent magnet.

@AC - Very Nice! You are quite possibly the most logical person on OverUinty.com!!!

I agree with nearly all you have said. I too don't disagree with all of what they have written. I agree that Magnetic Flux of opposite Polarity's attract each other. Facts are Facts, Magnetics are still Magnetics. I am not claiming anything that is not already been brought forward by others!

In any case I think I have found part of the answer to this debate, a PM may have most of the domains aligned internally producing an external field...yes. When using a compass or iron filings to plot the field we see a pattern leaving one pole following parallel lines with the magnetic dipole to the opposite pole...yes. In fact most of what they said is correct in a conventional sense however that is not what were talking about.
Here is the validation which I believe may solve all our issues. First we are not speaking of a PM nor a coil we are interested in the external magnetic field and fundamentally we have a very big problem. I will just lay the justification out in point form for clarity.

1) A PM has two ends we call poles which have different field properties, ie North and South pole.
2) We know the pole magnetic field properties are differerent because they repel and attract one another--- logically they cannot be the same or nothing would happen.
3) As they are not the same then one field property must transition to the other field property at some point near the center point of the field.
4) Logically there can only be two possibilities: a) the fields have different properties and transition from one to the other near the field center or b)the properties of the fields are the same and it is impossible for repulsion and attractive forces to occur.
5) As we can see it is a violation of both logic and reason for anyone to imply one property or condition can change to another property of condition and not "Change" at some point within that space.
6) When something changes it takes time and space as one thing cannot instantaneously change to another thing and this is supported by conventional science and observable facts.
7) As the external field polarity does change from one to the other near the external field center then we have proven that at this point it must be both polarities occupying the same space or neither polarities during the transition within the space. We cannot say it changes but does not change ...obviously.

I am sure no-one disputes the Fact that the Earth has an Equator because of its Magnetic Field?

I said:

ANYTHING that Constitutes a Lack of or Change of the conditions seen at each Pole, between the Poles of a Permanent Magnet, is a Bloch Wall or more commonly known as an Equator!

This statement agrees with all you have said! At the Poles we have a Flux Polarity, like you pointed out! Flux Density is clearly much lower at the Equator, I pointed this out earlier on, approximately 70% just in the average Iron Filing picture.

It doesn't matter about anything else other than the Magnetic Field, it is this, that is the topic!

As we can see it is illogical that anyone would agree the pole properties are fundamentally different then state they do not change within the space between the poles. It is like saying yes it changes but no it doesn't, so yes the external field may appear parallel to the magnet in the iron filings experiment but fundamentally we know as a fact the external field changes polarity near the center region. I believe this polarity transition is why we see the external field change geometry when other methods of measurement are utilized.

I agree here, the problem is that most of my "Critics" believe each Flux Line to be a Piece of string, strung between the poles!

We are seeing a very basic approach to a something that needs a bit more thought! It is basic and no doubt something that can be easily deuced by some hard work. The problem is that it should not be taken for granted and assumptions only get people into trouble!

Magnetic Monopoles were predicted by Paul Dirac in 1931. Synthetic Monopoles have been created in the Lab: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HSDoIf5FY2s

Here in lies an amazing fact, a singular North Pole can exist with no corresponding South Pole, the same is true in reverse. It is Fact that a polarity of the pole exists! Weather this polarity is a Spin based phenomena is another debate.

Here is a though experiment which may explain the illusion many others are seeing. Let's take a yard long magnet with a center, a North pole on the left side of center and a South pole on the right side of center. Now let's place the long magnet center a distance from our nose and move the magnet to the left at which point we may see the North pole get weaker but the South pole get stronger. When we move the magnet to the right we see the South pole get weaker but the North pole get stronger. We can move the long magnet left or right and one pole always gets weaker in proportion to the other pole getting stronger.

AC, this is correct! All I have shown with the Ferrofluid shows this with no doubt to normal individuals with the slightest common sense!

Thus if our nose was a magnet or compass needle the long magnet center region could be neutral or neither North or South polarity however the compass would not perceive it and change because the compass needle magnet would see the two end poles as equally strong. The compass does not align with the weakest field strength but the strongest so of course it must always point towards the poles regardless of whether the field changes at the center or not.

Again this is all Logical!

The argument that the compass needle should point towards a lack of field strength seems kind of absurd in my opinion. The strongest pole always couples to the strongest pole which is what the compass is showing us nothing more.

Again this is all Logical! Again common sense!

I think this is incomplete, however! For example, ferromagnetic material can carry Flux in more that one direction, even when one direction is saturated already.

For example, take two Neo's, one length of Iron bar, Place the Iron Bar between the Neo Magnets, in attraction mode so the Flux would conventionally be entirely contained in the lower Reluctance medium, being the Iron Bar.

Here in lies my problem, Magnetic Field Lines do not always curl back to the opposite Pole! Even Iron Filings show a 70% loss and Iron has a permeability of 1000 depending on the composite...

We have issues, issues with the Magnetic Field not doing what conventional science thinks its supposed to do. Magnetics says Magnetic Field Lines are always on enclosure on them selves, but we can see this is not the case. Conventional Science is incomplete! The answers are out there.

Kind Regards

  Chris

[MileHigh]

Hello!