bedini, the daftman SS charger & MHOP

[qtrhack]

very new to this board and hope to find some guidance.  while i understand the arguments being made on other threads regarding the claims being made by certain parties and the sale of ebooks - i find it ironic that there are more than a few ads on this site with links to the sale of the material with this forum seemingly so opposed to the claims.

i for one am thankful for the bedini information that is out there - not so much for it's claims - but as an introduction to into electronics and at the very least getting me to experiment while learning.  i have successfully built a bedini wheel and am now looking to expand into other directions.  the next project i was going to take on was the daftman's SS charger:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fMEhR9V0qw

in his video he states that there is a 'bedini' component but for the most part the **pulse** is controlled by a 555 timer.  again being new to all of this doesn't mean a whole heck of alot but hope to learn.  while reading some of the threads and communications over the past couple of days i was directed to tinsel koala's & mile high's MHOP.  i believe i will start with the daftman's setup first since that is basically daftman-by-numbers (attached) and tk's schematic doesn't digest well with me 'right now' since it's like translating a foreign language.  however my question to the list is there any similarity between the daftman setup and MHOP?

looking to learn and get my hands dirty - any guidance would be appreciated.  thx

[MileHigh]

A regular Bedini motor, the MHOP motor, or the Daftman 555-based coil pulser are all essentially the same thing.  All that they do is energize a coil and then when current is flowing through the coil they switch off the supply battery, and then the coil discharges its stored energy into a target charging battery.  That's it, there is no "technology" per se.

This is a basic basic electronics function:  What happens when you put a voltage source across an inductor?   What happens when you remove that voltage source from an inductor?   What is an L/R time constant?  What is the L/R time constant when I energize an inductor and how do I calculate it and how do I see it on the scope?  What happens when the coil discharges, it's similar to an L/R time constant, but in this case the "R" has been replaced by a battery.  If an inductor is a current-based device, how do you relate that to the voltage across it?  How does an inductor work in what is called a pulse circuit?

So before you even build anything, my suggestion is to go online or buy some books and learn all that you can about inductors and how they work when you energize them with current flow, or when they discharge into a load.  My advice is to spend a month researching and learning.  Then when your 555 circuit finally energizes the inductor, you will know what to do with your scope leads.

There is nothing "magical" about a Bedini motor or a coil.  Bedini and Aaron and Peter have spun this all up and created a cottage industry of mostly deluded followers.  All three of them will never tell their target audience how a coil really works.  You can pay $500 and go to a three-day conference and they won't explain to you how a coil works.  Instead, they will pitch the discharging coil as "radiant energy" and that's a lie.

This is basic Electronics 101, and if you are starting from scratch and you want to do it right you will spend at least a month teaching yourself about electronics including transistors as switches, and coils and capacitors.  If you actually know what to expect before you build your circuit then when you do build and test it you will understand what you are doing and you will understand what you see on your scope.

MileHigh

[qtrhack]

A regular Bedini motor, the MHOP motor, or the Daftman 555-based coil pulser are all essentially the same thing.  All that they do is energize a coil and then when current is flowing through the coil they switch off the supply battery, and then the coil discharges its stored energy into a target charging battery.  That's it, there is no "technology" per se.

This is a basic basic electronics function:  What happens when you put a voltage source across an inductor?   What happens when you remove that voltage source from an inductor?   What is an L/R time constant?  What is the L/R time constant when I energize an inductor and how do I calculate it and how do I see it on the scope?  What happens when the coil discharges, it's similar to an L/R time constant, but in this case the "R" has been replaced by a battery.  If in inductor is a current-based device, how do you relate that to the voltage across it?  How does an inductor work in what is called a pulse circuit?

So before you even build anything, my suggestion is to go online or buy some books and learn all that you can about inductors and how they work when you energize them with current flow, or when they discharge into a load.  My advice is to spend a month researching and learning.  Then when your 555 circuit finally energizes the inductor, you will know what to do with your scope leads and what to look for.

There is nothing "magical" about a Bedini motor or a coil.  Bedini and Aaron and Peter have spun this all up and created a cottage industry of mostly deluded followers.  All three of them will never tell their target audience how a coil really works.  You can pay $500 and go to a three-day conference and they won't explain to you how a coil works.  Instead, they will pitch the discharging coil as "radiant energy" and that's a lie.

This is basic Electronics 101, and if you are starting from scratch and you want to do it right you will spend at least a month teaching yourself about electronics including transistors as switches, and coils and capacitors.  If you actually know what to expect before you build your circuit then when you do build and test it you will understand what you are doing and you will understand what you see on your scope.

MileHigh

thanks - that's why i'm here - to learn.  do you have any suggestions on starting points for learning all that i can about inductors and how they work when i energize them with current flow, or when they discharge into a load?  alot of information out there and any guidance would be appreciated.  thx

just as an fyi - i've already started the daftman project.

[MileHigh]

I don't have any specifics for you.  I was told the web site "All About Circuits" is a good one but I don't know what level they expect the user to be at.  This is the information age, you just have to do the searching.  Honestly my advice is to stay away from any stuff that you find from a Bedini group.  If you see references to "radiant energy" for when an inductor discharges you should consider that to be junk.  You have to learn how filter the junk information from the real thing.

Have fun with your build, there is no reason not to dive in right away either.  The most important thing is to not lead yourself down a garden path.  Aaron does not understand how an inductor works after 15 years of playing with Bedini motors, you don't want to get "stuck" like that.  For sure there is an incredible amount of legitimate information about electronics out there.

MileHigh

[qtrhack]

This is a basic basic electronics function:  What happens when you put a voltage source across an inductor?

i will start learning by exploring the questions you asked in your initial response. i found the following:

http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/19863/inductance-and-kick-back-voltages

...from a circuit point of view you can think of a inductor as having current inertia. The bigger the inductor, the more inertia the current has.

When you apply a fixed voltage accross a inductor, the current builds up linearly. If you were then to short out the inductor so the current could circulate, it would do so forever if the inductor were perfect. Real inductors you can buy are made from wire, so have some finite resistance. The current times that resistance builds up a reverse voltage that slows down the current. But since the reverse push is proportional to the current, not fixed, the current decays exponentially instead of in a linear ramp if the current was fixed.

Actually inductors have been made from superconducting material, and they really do circulate current forever if the whole loop is superconducting.

If you can picture a inductor providing inertia to current and therefore how a fixed voltage causes the current to linearly ramp up, it's time to consider what happens when someone tries to suddenly interrupt that current. Think of trying to instantly stop a moving mass. Two things will happen. First, it won't stop instantly. Second the mass will create a great deal of force against whatever is trying to stop it. The inductor will do the same, but here force is voltage. The faster you try to stop the current, the more the inductor will push back with higher voltage.

But you say, a switch stops the current instantly when opened. Even if a switch were perfect and could do that, there would still be some point at which the contacts just barely separated. The inductor doesn't have to create much voltage for the current to arc between the contacts. Once a arc is formed, it's easier to keep it going at greater distances. That's because the air you see light up as a spark has become a plasma, which conducts electricity fairly well. So the switch contacts may have separated, but are now still connected by a plasma arc "wire". It does take some voltage to keep this arc going, which pushes backwards against the inductor current, which causes the current to decrease.

Eventually there won't be enough current to keep the arc going, and the switch is finally completely open. At that point most of the energy stored in the inductor has been spent, and the little that's left charges up the inevitable parasitic capacitance that always exists accross the inductor. Now you have a L-C tank circuit that will oscillate back and forth for a while. The little remaining energy is dissipated by the resistance of the wire in the inductor as the current sloshes back and forth thru it. The oscillations die down, and everything is finally truly off to the extent you can measure or care about.

This arcing accross switches is very real and a problem for switches and relays. This is one reasons relays wear out and often have different ratings for inductive loads. Every arc will damage the switch a little bit, which is considered in the lifetime cycles rating of the switch or relay.

Transistors can also be used to switch off inductors quickly. In fact, this is the basis for the common boost converter switching power supply topology. By charging up a inductor with current and then deliberately trying to switch it off quickly, you can harness the fact that the inductor will make a higher voltage for you than you started with.