What's wrong with this

[tinman]

                 

          floor

I believe I owe you a debt on several accounts.  Additionally, I hope that you will accept this apology
for my poor behavior during some particular exchanges between us.  I was assuming, condescending, and insinuating etc. .  This was due only to my own perceptual experience, not your fault.  Sorry.

No need to apologise Floor,there will always come a time when we dont agree on everything.

I don't know the following to be true with absolute certainty,  but I think

1. you may have been goaded into making your presentation prematurely,
                and
2. you may have been goaded into making your presentation out of the context that is your actual intention as well.

When you present something that go's against what others may believe,they ofcourse want to see this happen,and ask you to show this takeing place. Once you do that,they then want you to show it in another way,or use a different method. What i have found in the past is the more you do the more they want,and they keep wanting until they have you totally side tracked and going backwards to where you already were.

From where I'm standing it looks like my little topic here has been raided, and that you are being
artfully harassed.

They do that you know.

Additionally, I would  like to acknowledge that this might not be the case. 
It may be that it's just a bunch of people hav'nt realized that they might not be having a
good effect on the forum ?

Make no mistake,Mark would be one of the brightest people i has seen on forums like this,and i believe his intentions are good. But wether he know's it or not,he is actually starting(piece by piece) to answer in his own words how something like this could be possable. A Mole is a Mole is a Mole-really So dose one get back 1ltr of water when 1860ltr of HHO is burned?.If so,how can that be?-what fuel gives of heat but is not consumed-all is returned back to it's raw state. If we dont get back 1ltr of water,then where did the missing amount go if it's in a sealed vessel?.

[MileHigh]

Tinman:

It can be a pain in the ass when people repeatedly question you no doubt.  But it's all part of a process.  Look, let's assume that people have rational minds.  Your rational mind tells you that if the mass of something doesn't change from time A to time B, then it should weigh the same at time A and time B.  I think that everybody can agree with that.

I haven't really followed the thread, but when you observed a weight change, did you try to rule out any possible explanations for what you observed?  How exhaustive were you, did you look at multiple possibilities?

I am sure you are aware that a classic thing with a newbie and electronics is that they observe something that appears to be out of the ordinary, and they just believe it.  They don't try anything at all to refute their own observations.  And that's clearly part of a generic problem with the forums.  I can't tell you how may times I told someone they were wrong because of poor measuring techniques, or they didn't understand what they were looking at, or they were sloppy, etc.  Sometimes they understand and adapt, sometimes they just scowl at you.

Make no mistake,Mark would be one of the brightest people i has seen on forums like this,and i believe his intentions are good. But wether he know's it or not,he is actually starting(piece by piece) to answer in his own words how something like this could be possable. A Mole is a Mole is a Mole-really (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/wink.gif) So dose one get back 1ltr of water when 1860ltr of HHO is burned?.If so,how can that be?-what fuel gives of heat but is not consumed-all is returned back to it's raw state. If we dont get back 1ltr of water,then where did the missing amount go if it's in a sealed vessel?.

I am not sure if you are being serious here but water is normally a liquid and H2 and O2 are normally gases.  That explains the volume difference at STP (Standard temperature and pressure.)  The number of moles does not change, the mass does not change.

Why does it give off heat but nothing is consumed?  I just use a non-technical explanation for that.  The electric field literally rips apart the water molecule.  That takes energy and that cocks an 'invisible spring.'  Then when the hydrogen and oxygen recombine into water, all of those invisible springs snap back into place and release their stored energy in the form of heat.   So just like separating two magnets apart is cocking an invisible magnetic spring, ripping apart a water molecule is cocking an invisible spring.

MileHigh

[MarkE]

When you present something that go's against what others may believe,they ofcourse want to see this happen,and ask you to show this takeing place. Once you do that,they then want you to show it in another way,or use a different method. What i have found in the past is the more you do the more they want,and they keep wanting until they have you totally side tracked and going backwards to where you already were.

They do that you know.

Make no mistake,Mark would be one of the brightest people i has seen on forums like this,and i believe his intentions are good. But wether he know's it or not,he is actually starting(piece by piece) to answer in his own words how something like this could be possable. A Mole is a Mole is a Mole-really So dose one get back 1ltr of water when 1860ltr of HHO is burned?.If so,how can that be?-what fuel gives of heat but is not consumed-all is returned back to it's raw state. If we dont get back 1ltr of water,then where did the missing amount go if it's in a sealed vessel?.

Tinman the dirty part of doing science is that when a discrepancy is found it can take many pains taking experiments to bore down to the real reason for the observed discrepancy.  This can be very time consuming, and quite exasperating but it's work that has to be done.  Anything short of that is just jumping to conclusions.

Moles are a measure of how much of any kind of "stuff" (matter) we have.  They are the "n" in the various gas laws.  In different states, at different temperatures and pressures different quantities of matter occupy the same space, and conversely the same amount of matter occupies different amounts of space at different:  states, temperatures, and pressures.  What doesn't get created or destroyed is energy/matter.  In ordinary chemistry experiments where the energy values are low, any mass/energy conversion is so small that it is below what we can usually detect.  That means that for practice and purpose, we can state that in any closed chemistry experiment the mass of the feed stock reagents and the post reaction products is constant.  The total number of moles can change and that means that pressure, temperature, and volume are all up for grabs depending on the reaction(s) that take place.  So, there is no liter of water / liter of HHO.  There is some mass of water that will (for practice and purpose) exactly match the mass of HHO that reacts.

[Floor]

@Tinman

Awesome concept !

A mind which has been heavily conditioned by academia might
be less likely to arrive at a concept like this. (within in any given
period of time). 

The two side of the "contest " manifesting under this subject are
a little like the two side of the brain.   If either one is missing, the body
can still function, but it's a lot better if things go the way nature intended.
I emphasize the word contest with parenthesis, because I want to move
beyond the competitive aspect.

If we can get beyond struggling for dominance a lot of wonderful things will
happen.

Thanks again for hanging in there.   Get some rest you've earned it in my book..

Thank you MarkE for hanging in there as well.


            floor

[tinman]

@Tinman

Awesome concept !

A mind which has been heavily conditioned by academia might
be less likely to arrive at a concept like this. (within in any given
period of time). 

The two side of the "contest " manifesting under this subject are
a little like the two side of the brain.   If either one is missing, the body
can still function, but it's a lot better if things go the way nature intended.
I emphasize the word contest with parenthesis, because I want to move
beyond the competitive aspect.

If we can get beyond struggling for dominance a lot of wonderful things will
happen.

Thanks again for hanging in there.   Get some rest you've earned it in my book..

Thank you MarkE for hanging in there as well.


            floor

There is just to many holes and theories in science and physics Floor,and Mark(in a couple of different threads)has contradicted him self when using his physics and well know science. He says in one instant that mass cannot change regardless of the state that mass may be in-EG,water to HHO. But then he states that mass increases as it approaches the speed of light

Well-Mass either can or cannot increase or decrease-which is it?.

In fact,this deserves a thread of it's own
It's time to tare down physics into fact/theory and fiction.