Open Systems

[tinman]

       What would you like to equate the force to? 

Yes, you are very badly lost on very fundamental issues.

We shall see soon enough.

Wow Mark,you have just invented an OU device. We now have more stored force than we started with. How did you do that when it was clearly stated that it was a frictionless device.

No, this is again where you are just lost.  Please avail yourself to any of the many thousands of reputable online references because you stopped paying attention to any of the correct explanations offered by others and myself here a long time ago.

You have to understand that i dont see all post when im working 17 hours a day,they are easly missed when trying to keep up during work hours. I am interested as to how you managed to achieve a higher pressure after all the energy was returned on the return stroke of the piston.

You have made a series of incorrect statements that are refuted left and right by that "200 year old" physics that you disdain.  Experiment after experiment refutes your assertions.

You mean you think i have made a series of incorrect statements based on your belief that the ideal gas laws can be applied to my system.

My definition is one who engages in personal attack rather than debate the merits of their arguments.Yes it is!" and "No it isn't!" are declarations, not arguments.

Like telling some one who has a different belief than yourself that there full of shit?-Maybe that was just your way of telling me no.

For the umpteenth time, if the piston does work on the outside world, then it transfers energy to the outside world.

Respectfully !no!-no energy is lost to the outside world,as the unit as a whole is all enclosed in an insulated room.

It exerts that force in the direction of motion.  It performs work.  That work comes from the internal energy of the gas.

No,that work comes from the force/pressure that already exist and is already accounted for within the system.

Going the opposite way:  External force must be applied to the piston in order to force the gas into a smaller volume.

Not part of the process in my system,as the gas is already compressed.

That work increases the internal energy of the gas.  It increases nRT and consequently the PV product just as surely as the piston pushing out against a load transfers internal energy from the gas to the external load

.
No,the gas and all the energy it contains remains within the internal system. You just dont see the opperation of the system as a whole because you believe that your ideal gas law applies to all the action within my system.

The industrial world is based on these simple facts that you reject.You suffer from a fundamental misconception and have defied all patient efforts to disabuse you of that false notion.

Once again,you assume that the ideal gas laws can be applied to my system-they cannot while the system is in opperation.

The total force is the product of the surface area of the vessel and the pressure.

Indeed-on this we agree.Please remember you agree with this,as it will come into play soon enough.

Force is not energy.    Since for a given internal energy and vessel volume we will have a corresponding pressure that is independent of the surface area of the vessel, for a given internal energy we can design vessels that minimize or maximize force on a given internal surface by our choice of the vessel shape.

No ,force is not energy,but gives rise to energy.
The vessel of choice in this system will be a cylinder type vessel.

Mark.
You think i show you disrespec,but that is what i have seen from you toward myself. The button was pushed when you said i was full of shit just because i have different beliefs to you. From then on you were given as good as you gave,and there are many examples of that in this thread. You telling me i need to go do some study,and me telling you you need to stop living in the past-you telling me i dont understand or know what im doing,and me telling you that you dont understand my system,and that your ideal gas laws cannot be applied to my system while it is in operation. It can go on and on,and at the moment im guessing the one thing we gan agree on is that neither of us has respec for the other. I am not sure what you feel that your position here on this forum is,but im thinking that you see your self as some sort of teacher,and we are your student's. Well im sorry,but im not here to live by the ways of old-->im here to find the holes in the physics that you love so much. Im here to find the errors in those said laws,and to find where they dont apply-->and i believe my system is one such case.

So lets start working on this together,insted of seeing who can insult the other the most. First up,some question's.
1-As i understand,there has to be one constant for us to be able to use the ideal gas laws on my system. Either P,V,T or n--Is this correct?
2- If the pressure rises within the storage tank/vessel,then the heat will rise as well?
3-If the volume increases,but n is constant,then the pressure and heat will drop?
And 4-if i give you the parameters,are you able to convert the energy stored within the storage vessel into joules of energy using the ideal gas laws?.

[tinman]

The problem is that you still appear to believe that using work to compress something does not raise the amount of thermal energy or 'heat' it contains. It does and until you understand why you'll continue to believe in this fantasy device

It is you that misunderstands libre. It is heat that causes the gas molecules to move faster,and this means that they will hit the walls of the vessel faster. This is why you then get an increase in pressure.
Quote: In gases, heat allows the gases particles to move faster. They will hit the walls of the container with more force. If the walls are allowed to move, then the walls will actually move to a bigger volume because of the much stronger striking of the gas particles against the walls. Again the container becomes bigger.

Quote science learn.org--An effect of heat – expansion
When gases, liquids and solids are heated, they expand. As they cool, they contract or get smaller. The expansion of the gases and liquids is because the particles are moving around very fast when they are heated and are able to move further apart so they take up more room. If the gas or liquid is heated in a closed container, the particles collide with the sides of the container, and this causes pressure. The greater the number of collisions, the greater the pressure.

[Floor]

@Tinman

MOST readers seem to be understanding your concept without too much
dificulty.

It may work out It may not. Personally, I think its worth something.

Remember some people here are just want to pull on people's chain.

Basics
We Know temperature <> total heat energy.

When a force is applied to cause compression of a gas
that Kinetic energy so added to the gas is the cause of the temperature
rise.  But that Kinetic energy is (not usually significantly) transformed into heat
energy.  But remains in Kinetic energy form and is stored as potential energy / pressure.
Total energy is increased, but total thermal energy in not significantly increased (usually).

Sonic velocities

Diagram included  (Tinman Open sys1. pdf)

                                       cheers floor

[profitis]

Libre says to tinman:  'The problem is that you still appear to believe that using work to
compress something does not raise the amount of thermal energy
or 'heat' it contains. It does and until you understand why you'll
continue to believe in this fantasy device'

I say to libre: that heat does come into that gas but not from tinman.it comes from the environment.free of charge

[profitis]

Libre :'I just don't see the point in using electrolysis when another
substance undergoing a phase change would be more efficient.'

Me: because phase change during electrolysis does not exclusively tax the operator