Sharing ideas on how to make a more efficent motor using Flyback (MODERATED)

[wattsup]

@gotoluc

I am posting this so this thread does not disappear. I had made a post but again, thinking it may not be what you want to read but will post it anyways.

@gotoluc

Few questions please. Did you pay attention to which wires are going to the 1st layer for each of those 9 motor coils?
Also did you jot down those same orientations when you opened the original model before you modified them so you know how your stock model is wired? Without that, it's hard to follow or compare. I understand the experiments but cannot place them in context without knowing how the coils are precisely connected. Seems to me that is the most important part of these tests is to understand those precise relations.

Maybe look at a few of my Half Coil Syndrome videos since they also apply to motors. Motors suck but you have a good chance to test a theory. Just add a transformer primary in series to your 3 pulsed motor coils (1 phase). In series on the non-pulsed side meaning the side of your motor coils that is opposite the mosfet. Then apply the same juice you applied to test 1 and see the rpm. Just use the primary of a real intact MOT (hahaha). Do your measurements on the motor and on the MOT secondary and seeeeeeeee if there is better overall performance. The MOT secondary could be dumped into a good sized 250v capped diode. Also, see the difference of the flyback level. HCS sucks in all our single pulsed coils but there are ways to beat it like instead of beating it or neutralizing it you let it happen outside of the "working primary" environment, leaving the working primary to react or change polarity throughout its coiling thus imparting more to the core and more to the effect. I call it using a Slave Coil to lessen the primary burden, could be only a coil or another primary, depending on if you need to recoupe some of the input and put it back to work like you are looking to do. The MOT is just a fast idea but you may have better transformer coils laying around so the idea is it's open to a wide ranging effect.

Orrrrrrrrrr. Try using the other 6 motor coils as the slave coil. But you need to answer the first question first since you absolutely need to have full control of how the coils are wired up and 1st layer versus outer layer is important to know at all times. I am sure when they made the stock motor they applied full attention to their winding method. Maybe draw 2 rows of 9 dots makes your 18 conductors and say which is going to 1st and which is going to last of each coil.

Anyone who plays with coils on a core needs to always know which lead is which. If you are not conscious of that point, you will not play those variables and you will not learn their effects. 

Always great work man.

wattsup

PS: Mind exercise: With a good sized DC motor and a torque measurement device (pony break or other), you apply DC voltage, positive to the red motor lead and negative to the black motor lead. You measure the torque. You then apply the reverse voltage to the motor, positive to black and negative to red wires of the DC motor. Now the motor turns in reverse. Question: Will the torque be the greater, the same or less then when it is driven the first way. WHY??? Can this reasoning be applied to @gotolucs' modified motor? Hmmmmmmmm.

[gotoluc]

Did you pay attention to which wires are going to the 1st layer for each of those 9 motor coils?

Correction, the Stator is 12 coils (4 coils per Phase)

Also did you jot down those same orientations when you opened the original model before you modified them so you know how your stock model is wired? Without that, it's hard to follow or compare. I understand the experiments but cannot place them in context without knowing how the coils are precisely connected. Seems to me that is the most important part of these tests is to understand those precise relations.

Yes, for each phase the stock motor has 2 coils connected in series then the two are connected in parallel.

Maybe look at a few of my Half Coil Syndrome videos since they also apply to motors. Motors suck but you have a good chance to test a theory. Just add a transformer primary in series to your 3 pulsed motor coils (1 phase). In series on the non-pulsed side meaning the side of your motor coils that is opposite the mosfet. Then apply the same juice you applied to test 1 and see the rpm. Just use the primary of a real intact MOT (hahaha). Do your measurements on the motor and on the MOT secondary and seeeeeeeee if there is better overall performance. The MOT secondary could be dumped into a good sized 250v capped diode. Also, see the difference of the flyback level. HCS sucks in all our single pulsed coils but there are ways to beat it like instead of beating it or neutralizing it you let it happen outside of the "working primary" environment, leaving the working primary to react or change polarity throughout its coiling thus imparting more to the core and more to the effect. I call it using a Slave Coil to lessen the primary burden, could be only a coil or another primary, depending on if you need to recoupe some of the input and put it back to work like you are looking to do. The MOT is just a fast idea but you may have better transformer coils laying around so the idea is it's open to a wide ranging effect.

I'll let you know if I find anything interesting.

Orrrrrrrrrr. Try using the other 6 motor coils as the slave coil. But you need to answer the first question first since you absolutely need to have full control of how the coils are wired up and 1st layer versus outer layer is important to know at all times. I am sure when they made the stock motor they applied full attention to their winding method. Maybe draw 2 rows of 9 dots makes your 18 conductors and say which is going to 1st and which is going to last of each coil.

Anyone who plays with coils on a core needs to always know which lead is which. If you are not conscious of that point, you will not play those variables and you will not learn their effects. 

Every single wire is labeled with a number 1 to 12 corresponding to the numbers I physically labeled the stator with. You should be able to see the labels and numbers in my demo videos.

PS: Mind exercise: With a good sized DC motor and a torque measurement device (pony break or other), you apply DC voltage, positive to the red motor lead and negative to the black motor lead. You measure the torque. You then apply the reverse voltage to the motor, positive to black and negative to red wires of the DC motor. Now the motor turns in reverse. Question: Will the torque be the greater, the same or less then when it is driven the first way. WHY??? Can this reasoning be applied to @gotolucs' modified motor? Hmmmmmmmm.

No, you cannot reverse the direction of my motor by swapping the leads.

Regards

Luc

[gotoluc]

Hi everyone,

a small update on the testing.

For those who have been following the topic you would know I've recently modified the 8 segment rotor to a 4 segment.
After many days of testing each rotor version under load, I can now confirm the 8 segment is 10 to 20% more efficient.

It was important to confirm this before moving on to the flyback assist motor.
Hopefully next week I should have the assist motor attached for its first tests.

Luc

[gotoluc]

Here are the revised test data.
First are original tests then the revised (8 segment rotor) test results.


Original Test results

Stock Motor

no load the motor consumes 21.85 Watts at 730 rpm
with load the motor consumes 29.29 Watts at 725 rpm
the difference between 29.29W (on load) - 21.85W (off load) =  7.44W used to deliver the 3W load (1.75 Volts on 1 Ohm  = 3 Watts)

Mod Motor

no load the motor consumes 6 Watts at 730 rpm
and 1.66 Watts is recovered from Flyback
so 6W - 1.66W = 4 .34 Watts used to turn the motor with no load at 730 rpm

with load the motor consumes 16.64 Watts at 725 rpm
and 4.49 Watts is recovered from Flyback
so 16.64W - 4.49W = 12.15 Watts used from input
the difference of 12.15W (on load)- 4.34W (off load) =  7.81W used to deliver the 3W load (1.75 Volts on 1 Ohm  = 3 Watts)


New Mod Motor test results with 8 segment rotor

Mod Motor

no load the motor consumes 6 Watts at 730 rpm
and 2 Watts is recovered from Flyback
so 6W - 2W = 4 Watts used to turn the motor with no load at 730 rpm

with load the motor consumes 15 Watts at 725 rpm
and 5 Watts is recovered from Flyback
so 15W - 5W = 10 Watts used from input
the difference of 10W (on load)- 4W (off load) =  6W used to deliver the 3W load (1.75 Volts on 1 Ohm  = 3 Watts)



These revised results beat the stock motor by 1.44 Watts
Now we can attache the assist motor which will use the 5 Watts flyback recovery. So with the combined motors we need to achieve 10 Watts (or less) in consumption while delivering the 3 Watts to the load to prove if this concept is worthy.

Luc

[gotoluc]

Here are the final and best results I was able to obtain.

What I decided to do is recirculate the 5 watts of flyback back in the same motor by using one of the two extra phases. So one phase is the input and its 5 watts flyback is collected and re-switched back in the second phase which also has a flyback collected and loaded across a 100 Ohm resistor to calculate the final output power.

So with the second phase assisting the input the first phase dropped from our previous best score of 15 Watts down to 10.69 Watts and we also collect the flyback from the second phase which is 13 volts DC across a 100 Ohm load resistor = 1.69 Watts.
So the Mod Motors with flyback assist is down to 9 Watts while under the same load of turning the alternator which delivers 3 watts across a load resistor.
This represents a additional 10% efficiency improvement over the previous mod motor test of just collecting flyback.

I must admit I thought a 30% improvement would be possible but still 10% is probably better then some may of thought possible.

For those who do not quite understand the results, here's the bottom line.
The stock motor uses 2.44 Watts more to do the same work (turn alternator with 3 watts load) as the final modified motor.
This makes the mod motor 21% more efficient then the stock motor.
The 10% saving I mentioned above is only the second stage modification in efficiency boost.

Hope the results are clear and understandable

It's been an educational experience and hope it's been the same for others who have been following the topic.

Regards

Luc